Made in Alexandria, The Origin of the Yahweh Cult

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Message 1425475 - Posted: 8 Oct 2013, 0:04:48 UTC - in response to Message 1425427.  

Now if someone had said "Made in Amarna" the site of King Akhetaten's Temple to Aten, When he tried to make Egypt follow a one god religion. And that people who continued to follow this religion had fled north-east to escape persecution after the Egyptians reverted to multi-god worship.

Then it might be believable(ish).


Problem there is if you look at the real known facts of that matter you discover the description through the religious filter is not there. It was not monotheism in any form. Nor is there any hint that anyone but him was involved in ignoring his obligations to the other gods which is all he was doing. Therefore inventing "fleeing followers" remains solely an invention of believers. This is little more than a desperate attempt to salvage something from the OT after being forced to admit Exodus and Joshua and David and Solomon and the Wizard of Oz are all in the same category.

What is perhaps the strangest thing of all is this Exodus fostered nonsense about the relationship of Egypt and Palestine. They are about a week's walk apart. Since at least 3500 BC there was constant trade all along the east coast of the Med right through Palestine. What does "flee" mean in that context?

It is a mark of desperation to suggest if Exodus is changed beyond all recognition and that any of the literally tens of thousands of small groups of people who traveled back and forth over the millennia were "really" the people of Exodus.

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Message 1425482 - Posted: 8 Oct 2013, 0:13:47 UTC - in response to Message 1425450.  

Now if someone had said "Made in Amarna" the site of King Akhetaten's Temple to Aten, When he tried to make Egypt follow a one god religion. And that people who continued to follow this religion had fled north-east to escape persecution after the Egyptians reverted to multi-god worship.

Then it might be believable(ish).


But no member of the Ha-Bi-Ru (Apiru) ever spent time in Egypt, in any fashion, so how could they know what was going on in Amarna?!? :)


While not conceding the extremist desire for Apiru to mean Hebrew Israel Finkelstein clearly stated in a Biblical Archaeology interview that he has no idea what "hebrew" could possibly mean in that time frame. He does not concede the word is even remotely related to Hebrew.

One could prove Joss Whedon is thousands of years old by pointing out in his scripts he used names that first appeared in history thousands of years ago. Or one can assume he merely uses them as did the bible story creators about 1500 years later. All but the most literal bible believers agree the old books were written about 1000 years after this inscription.

Being written after a thing does not indicate how long after nor does it ever suggest contemporary.

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Message 1425989 - Posted: 9 Oct 2013, 4:44:06 UTC

Another indication of Greek origin of the old testament.

unicorns: Job 39:9-10, Psalm 22:21, Numbers 23:22, Numbers 24:8, Psalm 92:10,
Deut 33:17, Isaiah 34:7
dragons: Isaiah 34:13, Psalm 91:13, Psalm 74:13, Deut 32:33, Micah 1:8
cockatrice: Isaiah 11:8
satyr: Isaiah 13:21
witches: Exodus 22:18, 1 Samuel 15:23, 2 Kings 21:6, Leviticus 19:31

There are many mythologies in the ancient world. Only the Greek one contains all of the above.

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Message 1426010 - Posted: 9 Oct 2013, 5:29:05 UTC

This one is a bit out in left field and does in fact seem on the absurd side but the fact the all the successors of Judah Maccabe had purely Greek names and one of those name was Hyrcanus.

Early in Alexander's conquests he added a kingdom on the northeast coast of the Caspian which they called Hyrcania. Some 1300 years later this region would reappear in history as Khazaria of The 13th Tribe fame.

Around 150 BC Judea revolted against Seleucid rule (not fought against an invasion) which lead to the rise of a man with the nom de Guerre of Judah Maccabe sort of like Abu Hammer. His real name has not survived. All of his descendants had purely Greek names not even "greekified" Aramaic names like Matthias instead of Matthew. One of those names was John Hyrcanus.

A man called the Hammer, whom for all we know might have been a Greek, has a successor named after a kingdom nearly hundreds of miles away and otherwise unrelated to Judea save through their Greek rulers.

Up front it is incredible that this Yahu cult would spread from Judea to Babylon to Persiopolis in Persia. The Babylon captivity story is clearly dated to around 150BC contemporary with The Hammer. There is no credible explanation for Periopolis.

So is it more incredible to suggest the Yahu cult began in Hyrcania and was spread by some Greeks throughout the eastern Greek empire?

I am not making an issue of this unless and until I get more supporting information. I mean maybe Hyrcanus was a popular name among the Ptolemys who supported him as a client in their border skirmishes with the Seleucids. There are other possibilities for the name. But then having the coincidence, if you believe in such things, that Khzaria and Hyrcania, Hyrcania and the 13th Tribe are the same is very difficult to address.

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Message 1426933 - Posted: 11 Oct 2013, 3:22:46 UTC

In another post I mentioned that the common presentations of the evolution of Phoenician gives only typical examples while the hoary details are left to the professional journals. Here is a typical example from the journals. Note the far right column is 1st c. AD Aramaic.


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Message 1427414 - Posted: 12 Oct 2013, 2:27:46 UTC

An interesting question is when did people start believing the Septuagint stories, aka old testament stories, were more than simply entertaining fiction into serious stories. It is a separate question as to when they graduated from serious to sacred.

Today the Exodus story is taken seriously and is considered sacred. So if I can produce an unimpeachable ancient authority who tells a completely different story from Exodus and has no Moses or pillar of fire or any of the features of Exodus the stories could not have been taken seriously much less sacred. And if this is the case then we learn something about the real ancient Judeans. In the process later religious traditions about what they were like are relegated to the trashcan of history.

Thus I introduce the priest Flavius Josephus and Against Apion Bk. 1. Here he recites the Jews were originally Hittites. He recites these Hittites ruled Egypt for a hundred years. He recites when they were finally expelled by Egypt some of them, instead of returning to their homeland, settled in Judean and founded Jerusalem. Note founding Jerusalem negates all the David and Solomon foundation stories. He mentions nothing that is found in Exodus except Hittites not Hebrews leaving which is the closest connection to Exodus. For those who have heard the Hittite story before this is the earliest mention of it.

Now was he serious in this? Was their some ulterior motive? It is not obvious how there could be any other explanation than that he believed it implicitly. This is because he declares this to be so well known as true that only people who hate Judeans pretend not to believe it. (One assumes were he alive today he would repeat this about anyone who does not believe the Jews were really Hittites and Exodus is thus nonsense. That means you.)

Clearly in his time in the late 1st c. AD priests of the Yahu cult did not take the Septuagint stories seriously. OK, yes, this does go from the particular to the general so that statement is not logical. The logical statement is that everything from Genesis which got the Jews not Hittites to Egypt in the first place including Abraham as Abraham is not a Hittite and the other four books of the Torah are just stories. They are not to be believed much less taken as sacred. Further any book or story in the rest of the Septuagint which is contrary to the Hittite origin story is also false.

This is on the order of finding the oldest Christian mention of Jesus has him as the Roman governor of Egypt.

I mentioned in another place the hard part of figuring out this stuff is getting through all the religious tradition and other crap that buries the facts. Against Apion is not a recently discovered text. It has been known since it was first produced. This and all of his writings have been studied for 1900 years. And yet in the face of the obvious fact of the way the people viewed the old testament in the first century AD a religious tradition a religious tradition that the OT stories were sacred and passed down through generations has prevailed even though that is patently false.

I am not suggesting the Hittite story is true. But we do know that back in the 1890s realizing Exodus and Genesis were total BS when it came to Egypt is what lead to change adventuring by amateurs into scientific archaeologists. It lead to the birth of the science of archaeology. It was, the bible is worthless and just plain nonsense and cannot be used as a guide to what is discovered therefore scientific methods had to be developed. Unfortunately there is a strain of unscientific adventurers who use the bible as a guide still digging and destroying valuable archaeological sites. Biblical archaeologists are barely one step above looters.

For example the most (in)famous in recent years is Eilat Mazar who has a legit PhD in archaeology but uses it to discover David's palace and such as a front for the Elad real estate scam in occupied Jerusalem. Elad finds it necessary to remove the Palestinians who live there before they ruin the site and to make it easier to find more evidence of David. And once they are gone Elad will build three luxury high rises, a shopping mall and a three level underground parking garage.

Anyway that is a digression. It is just an example of what biblical archaeologists are really up to.

BTW: For those who are so ready to say "hating Jews" in this same book Josephus recites four other things which are patent nonsense by any standard today and by the standards of his time. He also declares the only reason people refuse to acknowledge these truths about Judeans is because they hate Jews. This is the oldest surviving example of the childish and stupid 'if you won't believe me you hate me' tantrum that then as now passes for "antisemitism."
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Message 1428870 - Posted: 15 Oct 2013, 6:25:36 UTC

I have mentioned the difficult to explain name John Hyrcanus connected with the name of Khazaria in the time of Alexander, Hyrcania. Alexander left one of his senior officers there to act as governor.

A third point to this puzzle is the otherwise unexplained letter recounted in the book of Maccabe of a letter written to Sparta with the salutation, to our brothers in Abraham. Whatever that means it obviously does not mean literally what it would mean to us, something like common descent or common religion at least by the bible stories -- which of course were new at the time.

What I am looking for now is an indication of the origin of the governor of Hyrcania. If he were a Spartan it would indicate Judah the Hammer did not use his real name as his ancestry included or was entirely Spartan.

And we know the Maccabes were part of the border wars between the Seleucids and Ptolemys not any kind of independence fighting. We also know the Ptolemys at that time were conspiring with the Spartans against the Seleucids. That may indicate 'brothers in Abraham' was the equivalent of 'brothers in arms' rather than shared ancestry.
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Message 1429074 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 3:01:20 UTC - in response to Message 1428940.  

8 and counting. Wow! even Mark would be hard pushed to keep up with that!


Do you know how to get to ten?

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Message 1429133 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 5:50:56 UTC - in response to Message 1429074.  

8 and counting. Wow! even Mark would be hard pushed to keep up with that!


Do you know how to get to ten?




Number
Hebrew
Phonetic and Translation
1

talmida ah'at* : a student (female)
1

talmid eh'ad* : a student (male)
2

shtey* yeladote : two girls
2

shney* yeladim : two boys
3

shalosh kitot : three classes
3

shlosha banim : three sons
4

arba tmounote : four pictures
4

arba'a h'averim : four friends
5

h'amesh ah'ayote : five sisters
5

h'amisha ah'im : five brothers
6

shesh shahote : six hours
6

shisha yamim : six days
7

shèva bah'ourote : seven young women
7

shiv'a bah'ourim : seven young men
8

shmone médinote : eight countries
8

shmona ganavim : eight thieves
9

tesha morote : nine teachers (women)
9

tish'a morim : nine teachers (men)
10

esser agorote : ten agorot (dimes)
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Message 1429141 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 6:16:18 UTC - in response to Message 1429133.  

8 and counting. Wow! even Mark would be hard pushed to keep up with that!


Do you know how to get to ten?




Number
Hebrew
Phonetic and Translation
1

talmida ah'at* : a student (female)
1

talmid eh'ad* : a student (male)
2

shtey* yeladote : two girls
2

shney* yeladim : two boys
3

shalosh kitot : three classes
3

shlosha banim : three sons
4

arba tmounote : four pictures
4

arba'a h'averim : four friends
5

h'amesh ah'ayote : five sisters
5

h'amisha ah'im : five brothers
6

shesh shahote : six hours
6

shisha yamim : six days
7

shèva bah'ourote : seven young women
7

shiv'a bah'ourim : seven young men
8

shmone médinote : eight countries
8

shmona ganavim : eight thieves
9

tesha morote : nine teachers (women)
9

tish'a morim : nine teachers (men)
10

esser agorote : ten agorot (dimes)


Odd. I would have thought the Israelis would have invented the abstract concept of ten by now.

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Message 1429146 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 6:29:22 UTC

When Judeans first appear in history they are ruled by priests who are also the civil rulers. Note the Septuagint describes a normal culture of civil rules with priests running around making trouble as usual.

We look at the power of these priests and see they had the power of summary execution for violations of the Torah. Even Stalin had to go through the formality of trials. As no people would have invented or permitted a "religion" like this to continue it was clearly imposed and maintained by force.
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Message 1429563 - Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 5:29:18 UTC - in response to Message 1429141.  

8 and counting. Wow! even Mark would be hard pushed to keep up with that!


Do you know how to get to ten?




Number
Hebrew
Phonetic and Translation
1

talmida ah'at* : a student (female)
1

talmid eh'ad* : a student (male)
2

shtey* yeladote : two girls
2

shney* yeladim : two boys
3

shalosh kitot : three classes
3

shlosha banim : three sons
4

arba tmounote : four pictures
4

arba'a h'averim : four friends
5

h'amesh ah'ayote : five sisters
5

h'amisha ah'im : five brothers
6

shesh shahote : six hours
6

shisha yamim : six days
7

shèva bah'ourote : seven young women
7

shiv'a bah'ourim : seven young men
8

shmone médinote : eight countries
8

shmona ganavim : eight thieves
9

tesha morote : nine teachers (women)
9

tish'a morim : nine teachers (men)
10

esser agorote : ten agorot (dimes)


Odd. I would have thought the Israelis would have invented the abstract concept of ten by now.


∅
{∅}
{∅,{∅}}
{∅,{∅,{∅} }}
{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } }}
{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } }}
{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } }}
{∅{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } } }}
{∅,{∅{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } } } }}
{∅,{∅,{∅{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } } } } }}
{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } } } } } }}

Abstract enough for you, yet?
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Message 1429861 - Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 20:47:06 UTC - in response to Message 1429563.  

8 and counting. Wow! even Mark would be hard pushed to keep up with that!


Do you know how to get to ten?




Number
Hebrew
Phonetic and Translation
1

talmida ah'at* : a student (female)
1

talmid eh'ad* : a student (male)
2

shtey* yeladote : two girls
2

shney* yeladim : two boys
3

shalosh kitot : three classes
3

shlosha banim : three sons
4

arba tmounote : four pictures
4

arba'a h'averim : four friends
5

h'amesh ah'ayote : five sisters
5

h'amisha ah'im : five brothers
6

shesh shahote : six hours
6

shisha yamim : six days
7

shèva bah'ourote : seven young women
7

shiv'a bah'ourim : seven young men
8

shmone médinote : eight countries
8

shmona ganavim : eight thieves
9

tesha morote : nine teachers (women)
9

tish'a morim : nine teachers (men)
10

esser agorote : ten agorot (dimes)


Odd. I would have thought the Israelis would have invented the abstract concept of ten by now.


∅
{∅}
{∅,{∅}}
{∅,{∅,{∅} }}
{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } }}
{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } }}
{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } }}
{∅{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } } }}
{∅,{∅{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } } } }}
{∅,{∅,{∅{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } } } } }}
{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅,{∅} } } } } } } } }}

Abstract enough for you, yet?


It doesn't come across in UTF-8. Which do I use to see it in Aramaic aka Hebrew?

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Message 1429945 - Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 23:24:43 UTC - in response to Message 1429861.  

LOL LOL LOL. You can't read skol, the empty set?
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Message 1430107 - Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 8:09:21 UTC - in response to Message 1429945.  

LOL LOL LOL. You can't read skol, the empty set?


I was expecting the Aramaic word for ten as separate from ten somethings. I realize the concept did not exist in Aramaic which is why I noted my surprise the Israelis had not invented a way of expressing it. They invented 2/3rds of the Israeli language based upon biblical "hebrew" and modern Arabic to get a working language before they added words for modern terms like electricity.

As there is no ten without ten somethings in biblical "hebrew" the way to say the abstract ten had to be invented by the Israelis or Zionists if you wish. I have the name of the guy who did most of the work to make Israeli called Hebrew into a working language around some place. There was something like 100th anniversary of his birth earlier this year. Anyway he got an article in Haaretz.

It does not take much reading at all to see the Judean hillbillies had no concept of numbers separate from the number of some things. You demonstrated that in your first post. You showed that the term only exists in relation to things. Of course I would be very happy to read examples of numbers separate from things from ancient Judean sources should they exist.

One hopes you are not suggesting the primitive hillbillies invented number theory.

BTW: Do you remember anything else from Shule?

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Message 1430120 - Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 8:42:05 UTC - in response to Message 1429945.  

LOL LOL LOL. You can't read skol, the empty set?


Seriously, are you enjoying games like this? Pretend superiority for knowledge of a narrow field of expertise? Back in the day it was important that I knew how to find and kill Russian ballistic missiles subs. Hardly something I ever mention but at least it is useful. You spent your time in hell on number theory. Bored me to tears. I have forgotten most all of it but vector calculus was my thing. So?

You should have realized no matter what you bring up I am going to use it to expand the material I have introduced in this thread and material related to it. You bring up the numbers you learned in Shule and I segue into the pidgin Greek of near eastern Aramaic speakers commonly called Hebrew.

This post itself is such a segue.

You appear to want me to point out again there is no evidence this "hebrew" was ever a spoken language and everyone saying anything implying it was is full of it. Anyone saying it has never examined the subject and knows nothing about the subject. That can lead us many places.

For example the DSS is clearly an abbreviation of the Septuagint and contains nothing different from it. The currently popular Masoretic is an abbreviation of the DSS and contains nothing different from it. Thus the Greek is the original.

Speaking of the DSS there is a traveling exhibit. I have not seen it but I have read a couple reports of it. Part of it in a hundred or so idols of Ashara/Astarte and not a single one suggesting any other god in Judea. So on one hand we have the people of Judea worshiping only the goddess. On the other hand we have a collection of stories of magic and heroes and kings and satyrs and unicorns talking about this Yahu cult of the priest-kings. Perhaps Yahu was never more than the household god of the Maccabes. That is the simplest suggestion from the evidence.

Do you really want to continue this?

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Message 1430209 - Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 12:48:07 UTC - in response to Message 1430120.  

Do you really want to continue this?


You do. ;)
Indeed, keep speaking.

I don't care what you think you know about my experiences, memories, knowledge and wisdom. ;)
But, keep speaking.
Reveal the maize, brouddy.
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Message 1430930 - Posted: 20 Oct 2013, 3:08:16 UTC - in response to Message 1430209.  

Do you really want to continue this?


You do. ;)
Indeed, keep speaking.

I don't care what you think you know about my experiences, memories, knowledge and wisdom. ;)
But, keep speaking.
Reveal the maize, brouddy.


As long as you are learning something.

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Message 1431406 - Posted: 21 Oct 2013, 13:00:18 UTC - in response to Message 1430930.  

Do you really want to continue this?


You do. ;)
Indeed, keep speaking.

I don't care what you think you know about my experiences, memories, knowledge and wisdom. ;)
But, keep speaking.
Reveal the maize, brouddy.


As long as you are learning something.


Ah, so you wish to be a teacher, having retired from something else in 1991?
It must be difficult, filling these past 22 years, eh?
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Message 1431558 - Posted: 21 Oct 2013, 19:58:13 UTC - in response to Message 1431538.  

Care to guess his age Sarge?


I believe he said he retired from the military. I know military folk are hard-working, so they retire as early as 35 and 40. I figure he's about your age, Chris. (Other comments of his indicate this as well.)
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