Made in Alexandria, The Origin of the Yahweh Cult

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Matt Giwer
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Message 1425013 - Posted: 6 Oct 2013, 20:56:40 UTC - in response to Message 1424994.  
Last modified: 6 Oct 2013, 21:00:21 UTC





Which appears most primitive?
Least?


Primitive is not an operative word here. Which of those is the more primitive? A phonetic script needs many, simple shapes that are not readily confused. After you assign O and X and I to letters you have to get creative.

Anyway is Phoenician. Fake archaeologists who are also known as biblical archaeologists deliberately misidentify Phoenician inscriptions as "hebrew" even though the script is identical. For example the inscription in the old Jerusalem water tunnel which believers stupidly call the Hezekaiah tunnel is clearly in Phoenician. What Israelis today call "hebrew" script is 1st c. AD Aramaic script.


Nope, that one is altered. Here is the Phoenician.



So you are saying it is a modified SECOND letter of the Phoenician alphabet? So it is B not A? Or the 4th letter? The 20th letter? All three are closer than the 1st.

Yes we have some 800 years of samples of Phoenician. Yes, the shapes changed over time. Yes, the experts publish typical examples leaving the gory details to their journals.
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Message 1425015 - Posted: 6 Oct 2013, 21:11:07 UTC - in response to Message 1424983.  

It is sort of common courtesy not to deliberately disrupt discussion topics.

Fair enough, though you were the one that tried to deflect from an accusation of anti-semitism, I was showing that such an accusation is well founded. Others here may not appreciate just how well founded it is, hence the example.

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1425016 - Posted: 6 Oct 2013, 21:13:00 UTC - in response to Message 1425015.  

It is sort of common courtesy not to deliberately disrupt discussion topics.

Fair enough, though you were the one that tried to deflect from an accusation of anti-semitism, I was showing that such an accusation is well founded. Others here may not appreciate just how well founded it is, hence the example.


Deliberate distraction means also trying to get in the last shot.
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Message 1425060 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 1:14:22 UTC - in response to Message 1422311.  

The Old Testament was an attempt by the Scribes of the time in 1500BC to record and write down the history of the Jewish race before it became lost.


One of the rules is no anachronisms allowed. Yes, a good bit of the official OT reads like history. Many of the unofficial books in the same genre also read as history.

We note the writing of history was invented by Herodotus in the mid 5th c. BC. He was quickly followed by Thucydides who wrote an almost modern form of history in the popular sense. Certainly in the same sense it is found in the OT stories.

Therefore the earliest they could have been written is after the hillbillies in Judea were exposed to Greek culture which would have been in the 3rd c. BC. Thus we have an earliest possible age for Judean authorship although not particularly credible.

BTW: The Nazis lost. Jews are no longer a race. They are back to being a religion only as always.

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Message 1425071 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 1:28:23 UTC

Speaking of anachronisms, in the aftermath of the Exodus golden calf affair and prior to the indiscriminate slaughter of three thousand people the word book is used twice. Perhaps this is an artifact of translation and should be scroll. However if a correct translation books were no invented until the 2nd c. BC which allows dating the story to that century.

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Message 1425091 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 3:00:53 UTC

רוץ ( ביולוגיה )
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Message 1425092 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 3:07:15 UTC - in response to Message 1424983.  
Last modified: 7 Oct 2013, 3:07:32 UTC

I had a quarter million credits when some hysterical izziehugger found my website and the project erased the credits committing criminal theft of computer services not to mention unethical and unprofessional behavior. Is that what you are attempting?


Credit from BOINC projects have no value, as we all know.

"I'm sorry, Mr. Cooper, but I don't ... ."
"Doctor."
"He's kidding, right?"
"Not the kind of doctor with access to drugs."
"I'm sorry, Dr. Cooper, but I don't have jurisdiction in Pandora."
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Message 1425095 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 3:18:00 UTC - in response to Message 1424752.  

"Matt Giwer" wrote:
"Bobby" wrote:
What's nonsense is your denial of your own anti-semitism. While you may argue that a person may not have to be an anti-semite to be anti-Isreali, the distinction is lost in your writings on your website, which contains so many falsehoods it would take years to uncover them all.


First let me point out there is no law against it.


Last I knew, there's no law against shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater, either. However, we are told since childhood it's not a particularly good idea, as an example that free speech has limitations. Words have meanings and uttering/typing them have consequences. Perhaps the only reason there's no law against shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater is because there may be a time when indeed there's a fire. In the meantime, just randomly shouting it could lead to a stampede and deaths.

As there's been a rise in atheism or agnosticism around the world, or in the western world, and it is unlikely it is due to your efforts or those who might be like you, one wonders what you are trying to achieve.
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Message 1425126 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 5:05:24 UTC - in response to Message 1425092.  
Last modified: 7 Oct 2013, 5:54:43 UTC

I had a quarter million credits when some hysterical izziehugger found my website and the project erased the credits committing criminal theft of computer services not to mention unethical and unprofessional behavior. Is that what you are attempting?


Credit from BOINC projects have no value, as we all know.

"I'm sorry, Mr. Cooper, but I don't ... ."
"Doctor."
"He's kidding, right?"
"Not the kind of doctor with access to drugs."
"I'm sorry, Dr. Cooper, but I don't have jurisdiction in Pandora."


In the US theft of computer services is a federal felony regardless of the value of the service. This is because an actual estimate of the "cost" of what was stolen would be limited to electricity and depreciation if only actual costs could be counted. It also acknowledges the value of the talent of the system administrators having value. I would be quite surprised if there were not similar laws in most countries.

When one engages in a contract even for intangibles a value is assumed as the computer services were solicited in this case with a quid pro quo. The Milkyway party did solicit the use of my computers in return for something. And when I delivered they delivered. So while one may argue thefts in cyberspace, such a battle ostriches, are intangible the computer services are quite tangible and theft of them is very felonious.

To remind you the entire point of Seti@Home was to solicit computers services to accomplish analysis' which otherwise could not be done. The services could therefore be argued as being of inestimable value should the analysis result in Hello Humans.

Now there was a simple, lawful action. No more soup for you! No more WUs that is. But taking away the contracted item is a violation of contract and was of course totally unnecessary. It was cheap and petty.

Further it is unethical to use data from unacknowledged sources. It is unprofessional to arbitrarily exclude data without proper scientific justification. Hell unprofessional, it is unscientific.

Is there anything else?
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Message 1425145 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 5:52:25 UTC - in response to Message 1425095.  

"Matt Giwer" wrote:
"Bobby" wrote:
What's nonsense is your denial of your own anti-semitism. While you may argue that a person may not have to be an anti-semite to be anti-Isreali, the distinction is lost in your writings on your website, which contains so many falsehoods it would take years to uncover them all.


First let me point out there is no law against it.


Last I knew, there's no law against shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater, either. However, we are told since childhood it's not a particularly good idea, as an example that free speech has limitations. Words have meanings and uttering/typing them have consequences. Perhaps the only reason there's no law against shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater is because there may be a time when indeed there's a fire. In the meantime, just randomly shouting it could lead to a stampede and deaths.

As there's been a rise in atheism or agnosticism around the world, or in the western world, and it is unlikely it is due to your efforts or those who might be like you, one wonders what you are trying to achieve.


If you want to discuss something else please start your own thread.

It is common courtesy not to try divert the discussion topic.


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Message 1425213 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 12:07:36 UTC - in response to Message 1425126.  

I had a quarter million credits when some hysterical izziehugger found my website and the project erased the credits committing criminal theft of computer services not to mention unethical and unprofessional behavior. Is that what you are attempting?


Credit from BOINC projects have no value, as we all know.

"I'm sorry, Mr. Cooper, but I don't ... ."
"Doctor."
"He's kidding, right?"
"Not the kind of doctor with access to drugs."
"I'm sorry, Dr. Cooper, but I don't have jurisdiction in Pandora."


In the US theft of computer services is a federal felony regardless of the value of the service. This is because an actual estimate of the "cost" of what was stolen would be limited to electricity and depreciation if only actual costs could be counted. It also acknowledges the value of the talent of the system administrators having value. I would be quite surprised if there were not similar laws in most countries.

When one engages in a contract even for intangibles a value is assumed as the computer services were solicited in this case with a quid pro quo. The Milkyway party did solicit the use of my computers in return for something. And when I delivered they delivered. So while one may argue thefts in cyberspace, such a battle ostriches, are intangible the computer services are quite tangible and theft of them is very felonious.

To remind you the entire point of Seti@Home was to solicit computers services to accomplish analysis' which otherwise could not be done. The services could therefore be argued as being of inestimable value should the analysis result in Hello Humans.

Now there was a simple, lawful action. No more soup for you! No more WUs that is. But taking away the contracted item is a violation of contract and was of course totally unnecessary. It was cheap and petty.

Further it is unethical to use data from unacknowledged sources. It is unprofessional to arbitrarily exclude data without proper scientific justification. Hell unprofessional, it is unscientific.

Is there anything else?


They have solicited your donation, nothing more. You freely chose to donate your services. If they decided that you are not the type of person they want to have crunching for them, they have every right to remove you.

There is no contract involved that guarantees you credits. Any time you donate something, you run the risk of having a "falling out". You do not have the right to demand any sort of reparations for your work, in this case your electric bill or your Systems Administration.

While you may have an argument about "unethical" or "unprofessional" behavior (that discussion we can have in another thread), you have no leg to stand on when it comes to allegations of criminal or felonious practices.
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Message 1425216 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 12:37:06 UTC - in response to Message 1425145.  

If you want to discuss something else please start your own thread.

It is common courtesy not to try divert the discussion topic.


As your first response to me in this thread was along these lines, one must assume you considered it part of your topic. Avoiding a reasonable question about your topic, or your overall goals, then claiming "off topic" is a disingenuous deflection.
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Message 1425380 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 19:25:56 UTC - in response to Message 1425216.  

If you want to discuss something else please start your own thread.

It is common courtesy not to try divert the discussion topic.


As your first response to me in this thread was along these lines, one must assume you considered it part of your topic. Avoiding a reasonable question about your topic, or your overall goals, then claiming "off topic" is a disingenuous deflection.


I get distracted too. I make the same mistakes. That is why we should make the effort to stay on topic. It should only take the first person to realize the subject has strayed to remind the other.
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Message 1425401 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 20:29:46 UTC - in response to Message 1425380.  

If you want to discuss something else please start your own thread.

It is common courtesy not to try divert the discussion topic.


As your first response to me in this thread was along these lines, one must assume you considered it part of your topic. Avoiding a reasonable question about your topic, or your overall goals, then claiming "off topic" is a disingenuous deflection.


I get distracted too. I make the same mistakes. That is why we should make the effort to stay on topic. It should only take the first person to realize the subject has strayed to remind the other.


Made in Alexandria, as in, not in Judea or Canaan or whatever you want to call it, I couldn't care less. As you stated, this is part of your overall goal to chop off, at the knees, Judaism and therefore Christianity and Islam, in an economical fashion. It is not off topic to talk about your overarching goal when in fact this thread is one portion of that goal. If you disagree, take it to the mods. They've modded me before. But I'll bet they stand with me on this one.
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Message 1425406 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 20:45:00 UTC - in response to Message 1425401.  

If you want to discuss something else please start your own thread.

It is common courtesy not to try divert the discussion topic.


As your first response to me in this thread was along these lines, one must assume you considered it part of your topic. Avoiding a reasonable question about your topic, or your overall goals, then claiming "off topic" is a disingenuous deflection.


I get distracted too. I make the same mistakes. That is why we should make the effort to stay on topic. It should only take the first person to realize the subject has strayed to remind the other.


Made in Alexandria, as in, not in Judea or Canaan or whatever you want to call it, I couldn't care less. As you stated, this is part of your overall goal to chop off, at the knees, Judaism and therefore Christianity and Islam, in an economical fashion. It is not off topic to talk about your overarching goal when in fact this thread is one portion of that goal. If you disagree, take it to the mods. They've modded me before. But I'll bet they stand with me on this one.


However a paranoid divination of ulterior motives as in

As there's been a rise in atheism or agnosticism around the world, or in the western world, and it is unlikely it is due to your efforts or those who might be like you, one wonders what you are trying to achieve.


is clearly not on topic. It is in fact delusional.

Then we have

Made in Alexandria, as in, not in Judea or Canaan or whatever you want to call it, I couldn't care less.


which is the topic and

As you stated, this is part of your overall goal to chop off, at the knees, Judaism and therefore Christianity and Islam, in an economical fashion.


the stated reason without the paranoid imputation of motives. Yes, liberals say they are in favor of personal freedom but they are really promoting godless abortion. Same thing.

If you were to challenge my stated purpose openly you could demonstrate no problem with it any more than there is a problem with personal freedom. Imputing sinister motivation is one of those games everyone can play but while staying on topic.

As to the moderators, I would guess they are bored enough already and have real work to do.
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Message 1425416 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 21:39:47 UTC - in response to Message 1425406.  

"Matt Giwer" wrote:
However a paranoid divination of ulterior motives as in

"Sarge" wrote:
As there's been a rise in atheism or agnosticism around the world, or in the western world, and it is unlikely it is due to your efforts or those who might be like you, one wonders what you are trying to achieve.


is clearly not on topic. It is in fact delusional.


I have clearly stated where I am on the continuum many times, as well as why I post on these topics.
I am agnostic. Unlike the enthusiasts here, I and a few others are trained mathematically or in the "hard" sciences.
I post on these topics because I happen to know a fair amount about how we come to know things and this overlaps with beliefs and psychology. Thus, I take unsubstantiated claims about a group of believers as seriously as I take the hard to believe claims in The Bible or any other spiritual/religious source.
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Message 1425427 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 22:10:29 UTC

Now if someone had said "Made in Amarna" the site of King Akhetaten's Temple to Aten, When he tried to make Egypt follow a one god religion. And that people who continued to follow this religion had fled north-east to escape persecution after the Egyptians reverted to multi-god worship.

Then it might be believable(ish).
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Message 1425432 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 22:22:21 UTC - in response to Message 1425427.  

Now if someone had said "Made in Amarna" the site of King Akhetaten's Temple to Aten, When he tried to make Egypt follow a one god religion. And that people who continued to follow this religion had fled north-east to escape persecution after the Egyptians reverted to multi-god worship.

Then it might be believable(ish).


+1.
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Message 1425450 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 23:21:56 UTC - in response to Message 1425427.  

Now if someone had said "Made in Amarna" the site of King Akhetaten's Temple to Aten, When he tried to make Egypt follow a one god religion. And that people who continued to follow this religion had fled north-east to escape persecution after the Egyptians reverted to multi-god worship.

Then it might be believable(ish).


But no member of the Ha-Bi-Ru (Apiru) ever spent time in Egypt, in any fashion, so how could they know what was going on in Amarna?!? :)
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Message 1425469 - Posted: 7 Oct 2013, 23:53:49 UTC - in response to Message 1425416.  

"Matt Giwer" wrote:
However a paranoid divination of ulterior motives as in

"Sarge" wrote:
As there's been a rise in atheism or agnosticism around the world, or in the western world, and it is unlikely it is due to your efforts or those who might be like you, one wonders what you are trying to achieve.


is clearly not on topic. It is in fact delusional.


I have clearly stated where I am on the continuum many times, as well as why I post on these topics.
I am agnostic. Unlike the enthusiasts here, I and a few others are trained mathematically or in the "hard" sciences.
I post on these topics because I happen to know a fair amount about how we come to know things and this overlaps with beliefs and psychology. Thus, I take unsubstantiated claims about a group of believers as seriously as I take the hard to believe claims in The Bible or any other spiritual/religious source.


Physicist myself and worked for the US Navy as an EE and one of the local authorities on computer systems. Also a minor hobby of making sense of ancient history because it is about as far from hard science as one can get without deviating into the arts. I started on soc.history.ancient in 1995 or so. Include in that sci.archaeology. Both groups were regularly interrupted by believers wanting to talk about Jesus really lived and the bible is real history. I simply learned to deal with them unless they were out in mass and then just switched newgroups until they were gone.

Anyway, in the process of dealing with their nonsense I found there was no credible explanation whatsoever for the origin of the OT and I explored all that came along and all I could find by research. A theory must explain the facts. The best theory is the one that explains the most facts. That does not say it is correct.

In the process of playing scientist with the available evidence I developed a theory which explains many times more facts than any religious tradition. Unlike religious tradition my theory is not contradicted by any facts. Now we were spared Muslims trying to sell us on Mohamed so I did not bother with it specifically but now include it. I do not bother with Jesus as there are so many fall-backs from son of god out there that it is pretty much guaranteed there was someone like some of the fall-backs which makes the digression meaningless.

Therefore the foundation is the obvious target and the legitimate one for the reasons stated. It took me nearly 15 years to come up with a working theory and then found a way to test it by predicting what I would eventually find in the ancient literature if I read enough. I predicted the Maccabe revolt would turn out to be a proxy war between the Seleucids and Ptolemys. One day I had to time to read instead of just scan Josephus, Wars of the Jews and there it was right in the beginning, a proxy war. And a credible real story of how it started instead of the incredible religious tradition.

What more can a scientist ask but making correct predictions from theory?

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