The USA shuts down

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Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1434101 - Posted: 26 Oct 2013, 20:37:49 UTC

betreger wrote:
In terms of individual income and wealth, a regressive tax imposes a greater burden (relative to resources) on the poor than on the rich — there is an inverse relationship between the tax rate and the taxpayer's ability to pay as measured by assets, consumption, or income.

Realized I didn't address it. It is trying to define a new and different meaning to an accepted word. It conflates several concepts into one, to make the pill easier to swallow, in effect attempting to inject socialism into the word. If you talk about an income tax, then that is the only subject, it is not about wealth, assets or consumption, just income.

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Message 1434157 - Posted: 26 Oct 2013, 23:59:43 UTC - in response to Message 1434101.  


Realized I didn't address it. It is trying to define a new and different meaning to an accepted word

Gary, on this point we differ. IIRC you have previously acknowledged that a flat tax would put the person on the margin over the edge, you stated that would not be desirable and I say it is regressive.
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Message 1434159 - Posted: 27 Oct 2013, 0:14:14 UTC - in response to Message 1434094.  

I note that state governments and local governments which can not print money must have emergency funds because of this. Why not federally?

They do, the social security trust fund.
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Message 1434186 - Posted: 27 Oct 2013, 3:31:15 UTC - in response to Message 1434159.  

I note that state governments and local governments which can not print money must have emergency funds because of this. Why not federally?

They do, the social security trust fund.

Isn't raiding the trust fund, er... pension plan what put "too big to fail" GM under?

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Message 1434193 - Posted: 27 Oct 2013, 4:16:27 UTC - in response to Message 1434157.  
Last modified: 27 Oct 2013, 4:17:28 UTC


Realized I didn't address it. It is trying to define a new and different meaning to an accepted word

Gary, on this point we differ. IIRC you have previously acknowledged that a flat tax would put the person on the margin over the edge, you stated that would not be desirable and I say it is regressive.

The mathematician in me has objections to the new different meaning. How can you have a tax that is flat will all the other factors included? What level of income becomes the no tax zone? Median income? Poverty level? Which poverty level? (different departments publish different numbers) Until you know where the zero line is, how can you know if a tax in progressive or regressive? This is my big bone with that proposed meaning, it is intentionally impossible to quantify. A scoundrel's tactic. Any floor to a flat tax makes it progressive. Any cap to a flat tax makes it regressive.

I know we are essentially in agreement. You wish the zero point, to be away from real zero so that it isn't seen as socially undesirable. In essence it says it must have a certain, undefinable level, of progressive built in or it is regressive.

Yes, taxes generally should be progressive. I still think everyone should have to pay a minimum per head amount to Uncle Sam, just because every citizen must realize the government is not free and they aren't entitled to free living simply as a birthright. Perhaps an alternate method than cash could be set up to pay this tax, spending a day a year working for the government. BTW would a days work for the government be progressive or regressive? ;)
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Message 1434357 - Posted: 27 Oct 2013, 16:05:26 UTC - in response to Message 1434250.  

BTW would a days work for the government be progressive or regressive? ;)


That would be progressive, wouldn't it? Because a day's work from a rich person would be worth more than a day's work from a poor person, right?

Depends on the scale used I'm suspect, job function or personal rate.

Now a tough question, is a carbon tax regressive?

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Message 1434379 - Posted: 27 Oct 2013, 16:58:56 UTC - in response to Message 1434193.  

The mathematician in me has objections to the new different meaning.

Gary, you hit the nail on the head. Economics is not math, it is the social science which attempts to describe how goods and services are produced and distributed it is not math but it does use a lot of math as a tool.
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Message 1434394 - Posted: 27 Oct 2013, 17:10:28 UTC - in response to Message 1434392.  

Well known, in some circles the LSE.
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Message 1434396 - Posted: 27 Oct 2013, 17:13:20 UTC - in response to Message 1434186.  

I note that state governments and local governments which can not print money must have emergency funds because of this. Why not federally?

They do, the social security trust fund.

Isn't raiding the trust fund, er... pension plan what put "too big to fail" GM under?

Yes, and the way social security is being run trouble is around the corner in the next couple of decades unless the benefit is reduced or the income is enhanced.
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Message 1434447 - Posted: 27 Oct 2013, 18:16:02 UTC - in response to Message 1434442.  

Well known, in some circles the LSE.

Oh yes it is! It has a reputation for producing er, radicals .... But the Nobels?? Impressive, or is that a comment upon the Nobels?


Maybe it produces radicals because real smart people see things others don't.
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Message 1434494 - Posted: 27 Oct 2013, 19:47:30 UTC - in response to Message 1434379.  

The mathematician in me has objections to the new different meaning.

Gary, you hit the nail on the head. Economics is not math, it is the social science which attempts to describe how goods and services are produced and distributed it is not math but it does use a lot of math as a tool.

Science is describable by mathematics.
Social science should be rigorous - hence the science as part of its name. Socialism is those poor huddled masses, the government must help them.

Unfortunately, that definition attempts to be both.

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Message 1434497 - Posted: 27 Oct 2013, 19:58:31 UTC - in response to Message 1434494.  

In attempt to put this to bed I agree that in a mathematical sense a flat tax is not regressive but an economist will look at it's effects and describe them as regressive.
Of the social sciences economics uses very rigorous logic as a tool.
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Message 1434537 - Posted: 27 Oct 2013, 21:33:10 UTC - in response to Message 1434447.  

Well known, in some circles the LSE.

Oh yes it is! It has a reputation for producing er, radicals .... But the Nobels?? Impressive, or is that a comment upon the Nobels?


Maybe it produces radicals because real smart people see things others don't.

This pretty much hits the nail on the head.
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Message 1434615 - Posted: 28 Oct 2013, 2:12:20 UTC - in response to Message 1434396.  

I note that state governments and local governments which can not print money must have emergency funds because of this. Why not federally?

They do, the social security trust fund.

Isn't raiding the trust fund, er... pension plan what put "too big to fail" GM under?

Yes, and the way social security is being run trouble is around the corner in the next couple of decades unless the benefit is reduced or the income is enhanced.


If they had not used it to fund other parts of the government they would be in great shape. It was set up to be used for SS only. Not a slush fund for criminal politicians to use to balance the budget and or smoke and mirrors to pretend we had a surlpus in years gone past.

My idea would be to hold the House and Senate libel for paying back what they stole from US!. I can retire in 5 years. I depend on what they have promised me for 30% of my income when I retire.Ive been offiacialy in the work force since 1970 when I got part time job after school. Now the crooked bastards want to renege on there end of the deal?

What the hell kind of life are the poor young kids just entering the work force now, Have to look forward to? I can see some fatcat congressman saying sorry kids you have to work till you die like in the pre SS days.

Sorry for the rant, Its our politicians who fisted us. They should be called to answer for it.
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Message 1434677 - Posted: 28 Oct 2013, 8:42:49 UTC - in response to Message 1434615.  

Its our politicians who fisted us. They should be called to answer for it.

Thank Reagan.
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Message 1434693 - Posted: 28 Oct 2013, 10:31:44 UTC

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Message 1434738 - Posted: 28 Oct 2013, 13:50:08 UTC - in response to Message 1434693.  

UPI - Fast-food wages costly to taxpayers

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Consumer-Corner/2013/10/27/Fast-food-wages-costly-to-taxpayers/UPI-96621382867940/?spt=hts&or=5

more bitching about symptoms. why? what makes adults take the job?

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