Straw that broke the camel's back?

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Message 1559364 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 10:43:13 UTC - in response to Message 1559298.  

Of course, I am using the Present term of Jihadist (19th Century Word), to describe many attempts over the millennium, under the same thinking, to impose their murderous will.


Wikipedia is not proof. I want names, dates and places where supposed Jihadists were stopped. And I want to know why the group, state, army, that was stopped is in some way comparable to modern day Jihadists. And just the fact that they are all Muslims is not a valid comparison.
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Message 1559371 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 11:12:46 UTC - in response to Message 1559364.  

Of course, I am using the Present term of Jihadist (19th Century Word), to describe many attempts over the millennium, under the same thinking, to impose their murderous will.


Wikipedia is not proof. I want names, dates and places where supposed Jihadists were stopped. And I want to know why the group, state, army, that was stopped is in some way comparable to modern day Jihadists. And just the fact that they are all Muslims is not a valid comparison.

So you're saying the Hashshasin never existed?

"However, we know that the Assassins were a branch of the Ismaili sect of Shia Islam."
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Message 1559395 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 13:02:00 UTC - in response to Message 1559371.  

So you're saying the Hashshasin never existed?

"However, we know that the Assassins were a branch of the Ismaili sect of Shia Islam."

Are you honestly going to compare the Assassins to modern day Jihadists? They used assassination to keep their political enemies at bay, how is that comparable to a group that spreads violence and terror and uses that to impose their narrow view of their religion on everyone else?

If anything groups like ISIS and Assassins are the polar opposites. One uses brute force against everyone, from civilians to political leaders, uses extreme violence to make a statement and are for the most part more interested in destruction. The other group uses targeted and limited violence against a narrowly selected group of leaders that pose a threat to their interests.
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Message 1559397 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 13:08:05 UTC - in response to Message 1559395.  

So you're saying the Hashshasin never existed?

"However, we know that the Assassins were a branch of the Ismaili sect of Shia Islam."

Are you honestly going to compare the Assassins to modern day Jihadists? They used assassination to keep their political enemies at bay, how is that comparable to a group that spreads violence and terror and uses that to impose their narrow view of their religion on everyone else?

If anything groups like ISIS and Assassins are the polar opposites. One uses brute force against everyone, from civilians to political leaders, uses extreme violence to make a statement and are for the most part more interested in destruction. The other group uses targeted and limited violence against a narrowly selected group of leaders that pose a threat to their interests.

Typical dinosaur with ass stuck in books rather than face the real world. You are continuing to imply that a "few deaths" are acceptable where "large numbers" are not.

Regardless of who, why, where or how, attack a people/country, one should be prepared for the consequences even if it means your own death. Simple as that.

While the civilised world uses it's civility against those who have no rules, the death count will continue to rise at a steady pace.
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Message 1559403 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 13:27:28 UTC - in response to Message 1559397.  
Last modified: 20 Aug 2014, 13:27:40 UTC

Typical dinosaur with ass stuck in books rather than face the real world. You are continuing to imply that a "few deaths" are acceptable where "large numbers" are not.

Regardless of who, why, where or how, attack a people/country, one should be prepared for the consequences even if it means your own death. Simple as that.

While the civilised world uses it's civility against those who have no rules, the death count will continue to rise at a steady pace.

And you seem to be implying that there is no difference between a few deaths and thousands of deaths. That they are crimes of the same magnitude.

Also, I hope you realize youre supposed to read a book, not stick it in your behind.
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Message 1559408 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 13:38:17 UTC - in response to Message 1559403.  

Yes I am! Death comes to us all, but unnecessary death due to someone's idea of an ideal world based on their beliefs is a stain on mankind.

One death is one too many.

As for books, they are made of paper so come in handy when the crap starts flying.
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Message 1559431 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 15:02:48 UTC - in response to Message 1559430.  

Oh, by the way. I would like to hear your reply to my posting of a USA victory, over these Jihadist's, in the beginning of the last century.

Look it up. It's easy.

Ive already asked you to provide names, dates and places. Beginning of the last century by the USA is not a date, nor a name nor a place.
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Message 1559538 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 18:10:41 UTC

That danger within is getting closer & closer...

Cameron says beheading suspect likely British

Halfway down on the right is an audio clip, one should listen to it. If's he's not British then I'm a Monkey's Uncle!
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Message 1559621 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 19:55:27 UTC - in response to Message 1559433.  

Oh, by the way. I would like to hear your reply to my posting of a USA victory, over these Jihadist's, in the beginning of the last century.

Look it up. It's easy.

Ive already asked you to provide names, dates and places. Beginning of the last century by the USA is not a date, nor a name nor a place.

I know.

Just thought you would have, on your own (because of your extensive posts on the subject), be interested over the years, in the resurgence of The Jihadist Movement. Their history, and their battles. That's what I did.

Guess I was wrong.

Now you can spend your time, not mine (already did that), learning the history of that movement. If you really care.

As expected, an easy cop out. I've asked you to share your proof, your evidence that backs up your statements, and you're telling me I have to go find it myself. Same as with the Israel and Palestine thread where I repeatedly asked you what you would do and you ignored my question repeatedly.

You got nothing, and this little side discussion is therefor over.
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Message 1559624 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 19:58:08 UTC - in response to Message 1559621.  

With your views on the "conflict" threads, when the danger within eventually erupts throughout Europe, we'll come back and ask you the same question!
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Message 1559630 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 20:08:21 UTC - in response to Message 1559624.  

With your views on the "conflict" threads, when the danger within eventually erupts throughout Europe, we'll come back and ask you the same question!

And my answer wouldn't change. Find out what causes people to radicalize and offer them a superior alternative to radicalization. That way you make their terrorist movements irrelevant and you cut them off from their supporters.
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Message 1559651 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 20:26:49 UTC - in response to Message 1559630.  

I can quite clearly imagine the scene...

...once it has erupted throughout Europe, with many atrocities committed, you as a bureaucrat stand before the victims families...

..spewing that crap at them...

...they won't need knives!
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Message 1559672 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 21:00:15 UTC - in response to Message 1559651.  

I can quite clearly imagine the scene...

...once it has erupted throughout Europe, with many atrocities committed, you as a bureaucrat stand before the victims families...

..spewing that crap at them...

...they won't need knives!

So you want me to tell them that I will do what? Bomb them? Hunt them down and execute them like the mad dogs they are? Retaliate to one atrocity with one of my own? But who should I bomb? Who should I execute? And who should I retaliate against?

The people that do this are not states. They are not clearly identifiable armies. They are not clear and easy targets and dropping bombs on them does more harm than good.

I have a response, a workable, realistic response that can and will work if implemented properly by professionals in the field. All you got are empty threats, unrealistic promises and unworkable answers. They feel nice and they sound great in a conversation in a pub, but complex problems do not have easy answers. Populism is never sound policy.
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Message 1559698 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 21:29:09 UTC - in response to Message 1559672.  

I can quite clearly imagine the scene...

...once it has erupted throughout Europe, with many atrocities committed, you as a bureaucrat stand before the victims families...

..spewing that crap at them...

...they won't need knives!

So you want me to tell them that I will do what? Bomb them? Hunt them down and execute them like the mad dogs they are? Retaliate to one atrocity with one of my own? But who should I bomb? Who should I execute? And who should I retaliate against?

The people that do this are not states. They are not clearly identifiable armies. They are not clear and easy targets and dropping bombs on them does more harm than good.

I have a response, a workable, realistic response that can and will work if implemented properly by professionals in the field. All you got are empty threats, unrealistic promises and unworkable answers. They feel nice and they sound great in a conversation in a pub, but complex problems do not have easy answers. Populism is never sound policy.


For a European, I'll give you some European history (as the UK is part of the EU).

You ever heard of the S.A.S? they were feared in Northern Ireland. What do you think the special forces are doing in Afghanistan? Sucking their thumbs?

Target the leaders & the message will soon get across. The problem is too many like you in the wrong positions end up po-pahhing it as too costly or too damned scared that it would leak out & the civil rights brigade create a furore.
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Message 1559721 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 22:01:40 UTC - in response to Message 1559698.  
Last modified: 20 Aug 2014, 22:03:03 UTC

For a European, I'll give you some European history (as the UK is part of the EU).

You ever heard of the S.A.S? they were feared in Northern Ireland. What do you think the special forces are doing in Afghanistan? Sucking their thumbs?

Target the leaders & the message will soon get across. The problem is too many like you in the wrong positions end up po-pahhing it as too costly or too damned scared that it would leak out & the civil rights brigade create a furore.

Oh right, because the IRA is eradicated and the Northern Irish are all very happy citizens of the UK. And Afghanistan is completely clear of Taliban and in no way will fall apart as soon as we leave /sarcasm.

Besides, what leaders? All terrorist experts will tell you that groups like ISIS or Jihadist terror in general operate in cells independent of each other. There are no leaders to target. Look at Al Qaida, we killed their number 1 and dozens of their number 2's and that hasnt stopped Jihadists terrorist at all.

So, not only have you given me two excellent examples of where brute military strength didn't solve anything, you also in the process admitted that yeah, all that military force is also kinda illegal and also kinda breaches some of our citizens civil rights. You know, thats exactly what people like Putin do. Instate laws and only stick to them when they are not in the way but the moment they become a little inconvenient, we ignore them. We are better than Putin.
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Message 1559731 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 22:12:05 UTC - in response to Message 1559721.  

So, not only have you given me two excellent examples of where brute military strength didn't solve anything, you also in the process admitted that yeah, all that military force is also kinda illegal and also kinda breaches some of our citizens civil rights. You know, thats exactly what people like Putin do. Instate laws and only stick to them when they are not in the way but the moment they become a little inconvenient, we ignore them. We are better than Putin.

Oh so the EU laws are much better are they? People like Putin upsets your idyllic way of life so you must sanction them! As shown with the student issue in Norway & the small businesses in Switzerland, sanctions only hurt those at the bottom!

People like you would much rather people lose their jobs & rely on food banks caused by your petty meddling in other countries affairs because you'd much rather a superstate to take on the US of A.

Europe as it currently stands does not have the courage to protect their citizens as they would much rather sit & talk.

If those citizens lose their lives because of terrorism, they just get marked as statistics...

...how nice for you, more numbers to justify your research to assist you moving up the bureaucratic league table!
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Message 1559754 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 22:40:14 UTC - in response to Message 1559731.  

Oh so the EU laws are much better are they? People like Putin upsets your idyllic way of life so you must sanction them! As shown with the student issue in Norway & the small businesses in Switzerland, sanctions only hurt those at the bottom!

People like you would much rather people lose their jobs & rely on food banks caused by your petty meddling in other countries affairs because you'd much rather a superstate to take on the US of A.

Well, except you are wrong on every count here. We didn't sanction Russia because we don't like what they do inside their own borders. We sanctioned them because of what they did OUTSIDE their own borders, namely providing material and financial support to rebels in Ukraine. And those sanctions, were they designed to hurt the common Russian? Of course not, they were targeted at those at the top, at Putin and his friends, at those who hold all the power in Russia. Oh no, the sanctions that hurt the common people are coming from RUSSIA! They are the ones that closed their markets to European products, and those are sanctions that hurt the average citizen, in Russia where the prices will go up, and in Europe, where a lot of farmers now can't sell their products.
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Message 1559759 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 22:50:07 UTC - in response to Message 1559754.  

Oh so that makes it right in your eyes? Who started the whole Ukraine problem off? Russia? Ukraine?

The EU thinking it had all the countries in it consolidated, decides to expand eastwards.

Sit & talk, sit & talk, we're running out of money so let's invite others in to build up the kitty. Oh dear, you invited the wrong people in...

...when the party concerned sends you a warning, you ignore it. When the crap hits the fan, you sneak away like a rat leaving a sinking ship.

Even the US throughout the cold war years didn't do something that stupid!

Diplomacy has failed as seen by this thread as when serious questions get asked, we get baloney in reply.

Did you really expect Russia to sit back & let you attack it with your petty sanctions & not reply?
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Message 1559763 - Posted: 20 Aug 2014, 23:05:06 UTC - in response to Message 1559759.  

Did you really expect Russia to sit back & let you attack it with your petty sanctions & not reply?

Did Russia really expect it could support terrorists who destabilize a country and violate the territorial integrity of a sovereign nation consequence free?
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Message 1559803 - Posted: 21 Aug 2014, 0:40:11 UTC - in response to Message 1559763.  

Did you really expect Russia to sit back & let you attack it with your petty sanctions & not reply?

Did Russia really expect it could support terrorists who destabilize a country and violate the territorial integrity of a sovereign nation consequence free?

Tsar Putin the Great does.
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