It seems that the EU has had enough.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2302574/european-parliament-wants-to-halt-transfer-of-banking-details-to-the-nsa

Cheers.

It seems that the EU has had enough.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2302574/european-parliament-wants-to-halt-transfer-of-banking-details-to-the-nsa

Cheers.

Thank you Mr. Snowden. You have made my data so much more secure. I am indebted to you.
s/ Ayman Al-Zawahri

It seems that the EU has had enough.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2302574/european-parliament-wants-to-halt-transfer-of-banking-details-to-the-nsa

Cheers.

Thank you Mr. Snowden. You have made my data so much more secure. I am indebted to you.
s/ Ayman Al-Zawahri

So just who are the terrorists ?

At the individual level, stalking is illegal in most countries for whatever reason, but now, due to the actions of an infinitesimally small percentage of the world's population, one country claims entitlement to stalk the entire planet.

This is WRONG !! (and don't try to feed me the standard "security" and "anti-terrorism" BS).

T.A.

At the individual level, stalking is illegal in most countries for whatever reason, but now, due to the actions of an infinitesimally small percentage of the world's population, one country claims entitlement to stalk the entire planet.

What ever gave you the idea it was only one country?

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quickie, not at home, so using phone.

http://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama

Cough ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

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Everybody spies on everybody else, and they always have done. So what's new?

I totaly agree. But your not supposed to let that info go public. Thats why you get the finger pointing when the supposed secret gets out.

Whats that old saw. Keep your enemys close and your friends closer.

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[/quote]

Old James

Just who defines the threat?

UK let NSA store E-Mail addresses

"If you are a terrorist, a serious criminal, a proliferator, a foreign intelligence target or if your activities pose a genuine threat to the national or economic security of the United Kingdom, there is a possibility that your communications will be monitored," the statement added."

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Whatever you do online, don't visit porn sites

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Only 1%?

"In response, Mr Smith said, Microsoft was expanding its use of encryption; would fight legal orders that stop it telling customers when their data is being sought and would allow a closer look at the code it develops to show there were no backdoors built in."

Good luck with that.

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HAH! A call for reform coming from tech firms who make a tidy profit using their customers information for all kinds of business ends.

Ask yourself, who is a bigger threat to your privacy. The NSA or Facebook and Google?

You can't compare. Facebook and Google are personal choices to use, NSA surveillance is up to them. Of course if you bring yourself to their attention in some way .... but then again that is your choice too.

From what we are hearing over the pond the NSA is answerable to no-one, not even the President, much like the FBI was under Hoover. Our GCHQ is more tightly controlled.

Oh, I have a choice? Sure doesn't feel like I have a choice in using Facebook, given how much communication that is vital for me goes over Facebook. As for Google, well, okay, I could use another browser, but I'm pretty sure that the company behind the alternative browsers are generally no better than Google when it comes to collecting data. At best they are a bit more limited as they don't have their own OS for phones and laptops. Speaking about OS's, do I have any real choice? Both Microsoft and Apple are known to collect user data (incidentally the only three phone OS's) and for laptops that only leaves me with Linux. To bad that Linux however has severely restricted usability (at least for now) given that its the least supported OS by programs (especially problematic if you use the PC mostly for games).

No, literally every tech company spies on its customers simply because its big business, and thanks to severely restricted privacy legislation its not even illegal for them to do it. If I really want privacy, the only viable alternative is simply not using any tech at all. But that's not much of a choice in today's world, now is it?

Also, the NSA does not spy on European citizens by itself. All the data they have on Europeans comes directly from the European intelligence agencies. The GCHQ might be more accountable to the UK government, that hasn't stopped them from spying on UK citizens and sharing that data with the NSA. The same goes for the Dutch, French, Spanish and German national intelligence agencies. They are all far more restricted in scope compared to the NSA, but that didn't stop them from spying on their own citizens and sharing that data with the NSA.

A fair point. But in the case of the UK, we have had an intelligence agreement with the USA since WWII to exchange intelligence data. That as I understand it consists of the following.

For our own National Security, the UK monitors known activists, subversists, terrorists, criminals etc, plus those strongly suspected of being so, and sympathisers or associates of the foregoing. If any of those are observed to be communicating with others in the USA, or travelling to there, then the USA security services will be informed. Likewise the USA will tell us.

Oh, it goes much further than just telling each other when they uncover a plot against each other on their own soil. For example, the UK, together with the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand form 'Five Eyes' which is basically designed to achieve global surveillance coverage. Together they run for example things like ECHELON which is basically signal interception. That includes mainland European private signals of citizens and businesses.

As far as I also understand it, they have not sent the NSA blanket surveillance coverage data of the entire population, even if they are capable of doing it. i.e. I doubt the NSA will have details of what I bought on Ebay last week, or the phone call I made to my Aunt, or how much I took out the bank a/c this morning. If they do, then they are welcome to it. Obviously I can't speak for other countries.

So the obvious question begs itself. Why is the NSA not as accountable as other European agencies? What is being done about it, apart from publishing Snowden leaks?

I wouldn't be to sure about that. That aside, there is a problem, namely that we think our own intelligence agencies are accountable, and that is clearly not the case for several reasons. For example, the NSA is by law not allowed to spy on American citizens. The Germans are by law also not allowed to spy on German citizens. The British are not allowed to spy on British citizens. So how to circumvent that? Well, you agree to cooperate. Pool all your resources and data together, and have for example the NSA spy where the Germans or the British are not allowed to spy, and have them spy on people the NSA is not allowed to spy on. Pool it together and you effectively circumvent accountability laws. This was actually one of the findings in the Snowden leaks, but apparently it had already been reported on as early as 1996.

Another problem is the inherent nature of secrecy that these intelligence gathering agencies have. Sure, the CIA and NSA officially have to report their actions to Senate oversight committees. Thats their accountability. But how can you check, without seriously compromising secrecy, the factual nature of whatever some CIA or NSA spokesperson is telling before to the senate? Sure, if they lie its a crime, but who is going to find out? I mean, a few months before the Snowden leaks came out the senate had even directly asked if the NSA was gathering information on American citizens and the NSA said no. The only way we found out that was a blatant lie was when Snowden turned up and showed everyone proof that they were lying.

Okay, that was the NSA. But do you honestly think that British or German politicians have any better access to secret documents or the inner workings of their respective intelligence agencies? I seriously doubt it. So, basically in order to be accountable, these agencies need to be transparent, and that directly conflicts with their need for secrecy.

We share intelligence with the US which is bad news for us because we end up with a deficit.

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Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

Well if you're going to take that sort of view, that we are all doomed regardless, Big Brother rules, they're all out to get you, then there isn't much anyone can say to you is there? I'm happy to carry on not getting paranoid looking for reds or spooks under the bed. Wht's it like living in Holland then? Happy with your AIVD?

Last I heard they were going to close down the AIVD and move all intelligence gathering operations to the military intelligence branch or something. Aside from that, if there is one intelligence agencies that spies on its own citizens on a large scale its them. There have been quite a few stories about how they can basically waltz into a data center or some other internet hub and just place taps there. But sadly, no one reacts to those stories when they come out. We apparently prefer to give the Americans crap for their spying and ignore the fact that we aren't any better.

Nobody in the UK an place telephone taps of any sort anywhere without express permission from the Home Secretary. Data taps are another matter.

Yeah, I was talking about data taps. Like taps that allow you to check internet traffic. Though I think they usually have some court order that justifies what they are doing. And, just because legally they need the express permission of either politicians or judges doesn't mean they actually do that. If you can tap phones and no one finds out that you are doing it, then its impossible to punish you.

update..

A federal judge says the National Security Agency's bulk collection of phone records violates the Constitution's ban on unreasonable searches. The judge put his decision on hold pending a nearly certain government appeal.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/16/judge-deals-nsa-defeat-on-bulk-phone-collection/

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update..

A federal judge says the National Security Agency's bulk collection of phone records violates the Constitution's ban on unreasonable searches. The judge put his decision on hold pending a nearly certain government appeal.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/16/judge-deals-nsa-defeat-on-bulk-phone-collection/

That judge is covering is own ass. Hes a coward for sure. Should have let it stand and let the damn Government appeal.

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[/quote]

Old James

They'll have more than a government appeal to worry about....

UK & US Spying targets revealed

Well, the muppets on our side of the pond will have some explaining to do...

"They suggest over 60 countries were targets of the NSA and Britain's GCHQ."

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"The NSA denies carrying out espionage to benefit US businesses."

Bulls***, an EU investigative commission already found that the NSA/GCHQ ECHELON program spied on European businesses back in 2000. As far as we know that never stopped.

Its becoming quite apparent that these intelligence agencies are far surpassing their mandates and follow their own agenda.

On a side note, the GCHQ has one of the most awesome buildings I've ever seen. Very pleasing to the eye.