Spain at it again ....


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Profile Chris SProject donor
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Message 1395952 - Posted: 28 Jul 2013, 21:23:37 UTC

This makes me hopping mad. They need to stop this periodical bloodymindedness once and for all. Gibraltar is OURS and it is staying that way, no matter what Madrid may think or want. As far as I'm concerned we should withdraw from diplomatic relations until they are prepared to behave properly.

I remember going from Spain to Gib on a tour about 15 years ago. We all had to get out at the border and go through passport control, while they searched the coach. I left a packet of 20 cigarettes in the coach with 3 left in it. When we got back it had gone. I complained on the other side and was told, they are simply having one of their awkward days which they do regularly, just to wind us up.

Typical pathetic small minded Spanish attitudes. That's of course when they aren't torturing and killing animals in rings for public amusement, or chucking live goats out of bell towers, or stampeding terrified animals through the streets at Pamplona. If they ever come to the EU for another handout they'll be told exactly where they stick their request.

Gibraltar

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Message 1395957 - Posted: 28 Jul 2013, 21:27:24 UTC

Be careful what you wish for. The way matters are going with the EU, there'll come a time when Britain will be forced to hand it over under EU regulations...

...you just wait & see.
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Message 1395961 - Posted: 28 Jul 2013, 21:42:05 UTC

No way Hosea, never in your wildest dreams. I've been there three times now and absolutely love the place to bits, a little bit of England in the sun. I won't wait and see, I'd rather burn the Spanish Embassy in London down first. I have written to the Spanish Ambassador before complaining about his country, I shall be doing so again. In addition I would also sign up to a declaration of hostilities against Spain. Why not? It's what they regularly do to us.

I hate Spain and everything it stands for, it's just a shame that you have to go through it to get to somewhere decent.

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Message 1395976 - Posted: 28 Jul 2013, 23:07:35 UTC - in response to Message 1395961.

I totally agree with you. However, it will happen regardless. To stop it all, the EU has to be broken up. We're a member of the EU & cannot declare hostilities against another member state.

Secondly, where will the forces for those hostilities come from? A once proud & Great Britain commanded the seas, as noted by yourself already, where are our naval forces....

...somewhere in Turkey I believe getting made into razor blades.

NEVER SAY NEVER
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Message 1396057 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 4:47:14 UTC

Spain needs money real bad. Why not rattle the sabre a bit and see what happens.

It was ok to make trade deals and other pacs but when you decided to have a commom currency thats where the line was crossed.

In my opinion and thats not worth much, the best thing to do is dissolve the EU.
In the long run the only thing that will happen is the resentment will build up so bad the EU will end up fighting each other. Across the pond we can see the cracks allready.

And if a war does start I hope we in the US keep are nose out of your business this time. After all most of Europe hates are guts anyway.
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Message 1396061 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 5:24:15 UTC

The EU considers Gibraltar a major conduit in the "illegal drug trade".

There are only 2 near destinations from Gibraltar, Spain and Morocco.

It falls on Spain to enforce this point of ingress.

People who express opinions far above their pay grade will be demoted.

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Message 1396064 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 5:37:10 UTC - in response to Message 1396061.

The EU considers Gibraltar a major conduit in the "illegal drug trade".

There are only 2 near destinations from Gibraltar, Spain and Morocco.

It falls on Spain to enforce this point of ingress.

People who express opinions far above their pay grade will be demoted.


What about Morocco? Cant they step up to the plate? Seems to me that they can stop the export of drugs.

And why would drug dealer go through Gibraltor. Or are you saying that the UK is letting drugs go through? Back up your statement with proof.
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Message 1396070 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 6:01:08 UTC - in response to Message 1396064.

What about Morocco? Cant they step up to the plate? Seems to me that they can stop the export of drugs.
And why would drug dealer go through Gibraltor. Or are you saying that the UK is letting drugs go through? Back up your statement with proof.


I'm sure that all of reality just "Seems" to You.
You wouldn't recognize "Proof" if someone hit you upside the head with it.

You now feel stupid trash talking Spain and the EU.
If the shoe fits.....

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Message 1396106 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 8:03:18 UTC

Ok gents, cool it please.

The EU considers Gibraltar a major conduit in the "illegal drug trade"
.
I don't think that is entirely correct. It has always been said that militarily, whoever controls the Straits of Gibraltar, controls the Mediterranean, and that was certainly true in WWII. It is also a handy strategic listening post for the Med and North Africa. Spains beef is that the terriry is physically attached to Spain and in antiquity was theirs.

An Anglo-Dutch force captured Gibraltar from the Kingdom of Castile in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession on behalf of the Habsburg pretender to the Spanish throne. The territory was subsequently ceded to Britain "in perpetuity" under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713. It was an important base for the Royal Navy; today its economy is based largely on tourism, online gaming, financial services, and shipping.

The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations as Spain asserts a claim to the territory. Gibraltarians rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in a 1967 referendum and again in 2002. Under the Gibraltar constitution of 2006, Gibraltar governs its own affairs, though some powers, such as defence and foreign relations, remain the responsibility of the UK Government


Spain says, that Britain only got it as "spoils of war", the treaty of Utrecht was unfair, it disputes "in perpetuity", and it wants it back. Unfortunately for them the Gibraltarians firmly wish to remain under British rule. That is not likely to change in the future. It's very much a similar situation as in the Falklands, sabre rattling goes on every so often to keep the natives back home happy.

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Message 1396110 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 8:46:05 UTC - in response to Message 1396106.

Oh.. thank you very much for include as all in the same package.. I don´t know anybody claiming that Gilbratar is spanish territory.. Indeed people claiming that are seen as a joke.. (Maybe is different on the south of the country next to the border, I don´t know ). I think this issue is more a political card played by the spanish governments. (And exclusively by the right wing) They ´re always looking for ways to move public opinion from corruption to other topics.

Gibraltar won´t be spanish territory because people living there don´t want to be spanish. And that´s ok with me and it´s ok for mostly the majority of spanish people.

PS: I don´t like bulls..

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Message 1396111 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 9:11:54 UTC

Bigotitos, thank you for your post. It is refreshing to find someone with an alternative to the stereotype view. I really hope that your thoughts are as widespread as you say. I wont get into the Spanish and animals, most people know that subject is my achilles heel. It's interesting that you think that the right wing use Gibraltar as a smoke screen for corruption, it's normally France or Italy that come to mind in that context. What have your lot been getting up to then?

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Message 1396118 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 10:17:40 UTC - in response to Message 1396111.
Last modified: 29 Jul 2013, 10:27:01 UTC

I think is a widespread opinion but the media (and the governments) always have their own interest and are very powerful to impose them so people outside the country may have a different impression.

For me animal torture is a shame too. But hopefully this will be changing because bullfights have gradually less young spectators.. (Youngsters are more concerned about the suffering of animals) .Indeed the current government of Mariano Rajoy is maintaining this "business" wasting a lot of public resources because commercially is a lost cause. Some plazas de toros are half empty as can be seen in pictures.

The current government have almost all of their high members involved in the illegal fundraising of the right wing party but nobody is resigning ( a venerable local custom..) We´re talking about massive fraud,millions of euros flowing from Spain to Switzerland as Mariano Rajoy is demolishing the public services or cutting all investments on science and condemning to ruin the majority of the bussiness owners due to high taxes to middle and low classes. People are very angry..So if they can use a trick they´ll try, In the past they talked about terrorists and that worked, today they treat people claiming a real democracy as terrorists but smoke screens have a limit. I think we have reached that point.

PS: I hate the current state of the UE policy but love Europe culturally speaking.. (Huge fan of british comedy, Doctor Who, and so many other things..) And I´m sure the most of the people in Europe don´t hate America ( indeed some time ago I watched polls about this particular point).
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Message 1396157 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 12:31:30 UTC - in response to Message 1396057.

Spain needs money real bad. Why not rattle the sabre a bit and see what happens.

It was ok to make trade deals and other pacs but when you decided to have a commom currency thats where the line was crossed.

In my opinion and thats not worth much, the best thing to do is dissolve the EU.
In the long run the only thing that will happen is the resentment will build up so bad the EU will end up fighting each other. Across the pond we can see the cracks allready.

And if a war does start I hope we in the US keep are nose out of your business this time. After all most of Europe hates are guts anyway.


+1

The cracks have been there for some considerable time & they are getting wider. The problem is that those at the top have gotten away from grass roots level & that will come back to haunt all of Europe.

The history of Eurpoe over the past 1000 years or so just comfirms that there is no way the EU can ultimately succeed as there is too many disparaging views by every nation within it.

It's a pressure cooker that's being pressurised too much & too fast so the only question is not if but when it blows.
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Message 1396159 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 12:42:53 UTC
Last modified: 21 Mar 2014, 20:32:57 UTC

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Message 1396162 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 12:44:58 UTC - in response to Message 1396159.

too many disparaging views


Ya, that's the problem. We need to shut some of them (the extemists) up.


Careful there Guy, you want Europol on your case? Most of those views are coming from the top :)
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Message 1396166 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 12:49:16 UTC

We shall unite, whether UK likes it or not.
Tullio
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Message 1396167 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 12:53:18 UTC - in response to Message 1396166.

We shall unite, whether UK likes it or not.
Tullio


USSR 1917-1991. Didn't last long did it?
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Message 1396171 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 12:59:04 UTC - in response to Message 1396162.
Last modified: 21 Mar 2014, 20:32:39 UTC

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Message 1396178 - Posted: 29 Jul 2013, 13:36:34 UTC - in response to Message 1396171.
Last modified: 29 Jul 2013, 13:42:20 UTC

If you quit EU you´ll going to have the same problem anyway: a world without financial regulation of any kind. The political stability of every country is going to be compromised unless something is done soon. if not all those protests around the world will be gradually growing.. Without a common frame it´s going to be more complicated to be able to come up with a solution..
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Message 1396566 - Posted: 30 Jul 2013, 10:18:15 UTC

Well, we seem to have drifted off into discussing the future of Europe :-) But my view has always been that if we have an interesting thread that people want to contribute to then that's good. As Spain is a EU member I guess we can stretch a point, but I would like to bring it generally back to Spain and its role in it at some juncture. Taking points in the order raised.

I'm glad to know that the younger Spanish are mainly for animal welfare, that is good news to hear.

The current government have almost all of their high members involved in the illegal fundraising of the right wing party but nobody is resigning ( a venerable local custom..) We´re talking about massive fraud, millions of euros flowing from Spain to Switzerland

Interesting stuff which I for one wasn't fully aware of. But they had better be careful as the Swiss banking system isn't so secret now as it once was, and account details can be provided in the case of criminal activity.

I hate the current state of the UE policy but love Europe culturally speaking.. (Huge fan of british comedy, Doctor Who, and so many other things..) And I´m sure the most of the people in Europe don´t hate America ( indeed some time ago I watched polls about this particular point).

I agree with your views there. The UK joined the EEC as it seemed sensible to have international trade agreements with some of our biggest customers. The EU with the aim of political unity has sneaked in via the back door. One of the best things about traveling in the old europe, was the passport stamps and the different money in each country, you felt you really were abroad. Now its "if it's Tuesday this must be Germany, so yesterday must have been France ...."

We shall unite, whether UK likes it or not.

The UK has no problem with a united Europe, it's just that if there is no perceieved benefit to us in being in it, then we will leave. We have Brussels trying to overturn and usurp British laws that have been around for Centuries, and we're not having it. As others have said in the past "This is something up with which we will not put", and "include us out".

Same concern here. We have 50 smaller units, most of whom are fighting against the view from the top

Because of the sheer size of the USA, it does make some sort of sense to devolve the day to day management to local managers i.e. State Governors. But each state has its different laws, and are run like the fiefdoms used to be in the UK in the Middle Ages. We also have 48 smaller units, i.e. Counties, split into 83 administrative areas, but the whole lot in terms of law are run centrally from Westminster as the country is that much smaller. The question is are the Americans against Obama as an individual, or against the policies of his administration? If Obama was incapacitaed tomorrow and Joe Biden took over, would anything change?

Centralizing power is the only solution to prevent disparaging views

Of course it is. If you want to live in a dictatorship with secret police, then that is the way to go.

If you quit EU you´ll going to have the same problem anyway: a world without financial regulation of any kind. The political stability of every country is going to be compromised unless something is done soon. if not all those protests around the world will be gradually growing.

There is a world recession, which has affected every country to some degree. Those in the EU that rely on tourism to survive went down first needing bailouts. Towns and cities in the USA are filing for bankruptcy. There was talk of Germany as the strongest economy in the EU taking over and running all other EU countries budgets. Hah, we soon stopped that one.

There are protests all around the world because when a recession bites, goevernments have to cut back and the people don't like it. Also you have the problem in the UK and the USA where elections produce a 60% turn out, and a 50/50 result at the polls. So 1/3 don't care, 1/3 are happy, 1/3 are not happy. How can you run a country with 2/3 of the population disaffected?

The UK hasn't quit the EU yet, but the shockwaves that we might do are taking hold. I think we have a fair chance to re-negotiate our Membership as most want us to stay. We may be a small country in terms of population and physical area, but we are still a major player on the world stage.

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