you guys

translation:

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As long as voter fraud supports the election of liberals moving us closer and closer to a pure democracy, you guys are going to say there's no reason to waste resources chasing something that doesn't exist.

If there's ever an uprising of people who want to get back to the basics and the original intent of the U.S. Constitution, you guys will then start claiming voter fraud.

And then I'll start saying there's no reason to waste resources on something that doesn't exist.

If we don't start tipping back the other way here shortly, we may never be able to recover again in our lifetimes.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Based on the findings of True the Vote, it's unclear how a voter ID is going to solve the bulk of voter fraud related issues, which stem from absentee ballots. Now if you and others were to propose measures to reduce these frauds, then I suspect there'd be less room for disagreement.

As for "pure democracies" please provide an instance where such a thing has operated in the last thousand years. The founders knew it was a straw man to use as a backdrop for their proposal of a "republic" (aka a representative democracy). Why do you believe anybody is advocating such a thing now?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Why do you believe anybody is advocating such a thing now?

I believe ID was in relation to Prop 8.

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[url]As long as voter fraud supports the election of liberals moving us closer and closer to a pure democracy, you guys are going to say there's no reason to waste resources chasing something that doesn't exist[/url]

according to you and the damned right leaning media. THe problem isnt voter fraud. It is bad candidates, open mike night at meetings, and downright bigotry in that party. While some embrace the bigotry, others find it distasteful and choose people over corporations and zealotry.

Quite honestly you've beaten this dead horse enough. There is no vast left wing conspiracy to create voter fraud. In fact its a vapor conspiracy created by conservative talking heads to beat up minorities once again.

I did point out a vast right wing conspiracy that occurred during the 2000 election cycle but you were quite remiss at acknowleging that the party of Lincoln deliberately created voter fraud on a grand scale. A scale so large that the voter suppression threw the election to the conservatives in Florida. One might note that they got caught and yet nobody went to prison. Seems surpising but again it is only a bit of wrong doing. Who really got hurt by 8 years of bad policies and war and 2 recessions.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

[quoteYa, right, all those on ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN--all those talking heads knowing full well that if they called the election before voting hours were over, they'd have a pretty good chance of disenfranchising the Republican Florida residents who lived in the central times zone and possibly throw the election through fraud to Algore. Right wing... HA!


Look dude, are you just trying to piss me off? Get your facts straight and quit this childish behavior.[/quote]
Please reread my post about the 2000 election fraud. In no uncertain terms the vote in Florida was rigged.

I bet you wonder how either party knows which state is a battleground state. Generally, it is a state with nearly equal portions of dems and Cons. With a slight population change and/or politcal push voters shift ever so slightly one way or the other. Notice that Ohio has been a key state in the last 2 election cycles much as Florida was in the 2 prior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Central_Voter_File

Frankly your frame of mind is of little concern to me. Your obtuseness is noted. you care little for actual facts. Heresay and dire projection is all you have. Oh no a non white guy got elected. End of the world boo hoo. Guess what we still have a 3 part government regardless of who is elected. Its a matter for all 3 to get along or check each other out to make sure one isn't screwing the country over.

Personally, I'd be impeaching our Chief justice Roberts for malfeasance and factual dishonesty. He is a discredit to the robe. Scalia on the other hand is a peach for not recusing himself on cases in which he had person knowlege and friendships with people that brought cases to the court. Guess which way he decided when it came to his friends.

There will always be dissident voices heard in the land, expressing opposition without alternative, finding fault but never favor, perceiving gloom on every side and seeking influence without responsibility. Those voices are inevitable.

But today other voices are heard in the land -- voices preaching doctrines wholly unrelated to reality, wholly unsuited to the sixties, doctrines which apparently assume that words will suffice without weapons, that vituperation is as good as victory and that peace is a sign of weakness.

...We cannot expect that everyone, to use the phrase of a decade ago, will "talk sense to the American people." But we can hope that fewer people will listen to nonsense. And the notion that this Nation is headed for defeat through deficit, or that strength is but a matter of slogans, is nothing but just plain nonsense.

from the Speech Kennedy never got to deliver to the Dallas Trade Mart Nov. 1963

It seems the people he was talking about have had children and they learned the same falsehoods that they spoke. Shame to you.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

"With the help of the media ... continue to tell the public that something is phony, false, a myth or irrelevant and a significant portion of the populace will begin to believe it."

Will you repeat this in a thread on, oh I don't know, perhaps intelligent design?

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Keep putting words in my mouth. That's how you're winning.

Who would do such a thing?

Guy wrote:

I'm surprised none of you have called me a crazy ass cracker.

Oh that's who ...

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

How could Guy be that -- he's a Texan

and you liberals are doing everything you can to turn it into a 1 part government with the illusion that the people's vote counts.

Weren't you, no that was your very best bud ID who was using that very tactic to claim that the courts could not review Prop 8 because the people voted for it. Can't remember if you also agreed with that and the mods have those threads hidden so I guess you can say you didn't and there is no way to fact check it.

Funny how what goes around comes around.

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http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/2013/08/05/levy-the-liberal-fraud-on-voter-fraud/

"With the help of the media and the presidential spokesperson, continue to tell the public that something is phony, false, a myth or irrelevant and a significant portion of the populace will begin to believe it."

Back to using sites that don't provide sources for their numbers? Go scare yourself with stories of widespread voter fraud if you feel you need to, though when you dig a little deeper you'll probably find the truth is a little different:

Mark Levy wrote:

In 2008, Senate candidate Al Franken defeated Republican incumbent Norm Coleman by 312 votes with 1,099 felons illegally voting. Also, in 25 precincts there were more votes cast than actual registered voters.

Unfortunately for Mark:

The Minnesota Majority suggested so many felons voted illegally they would have, in theory, provided Democrat Franken his 312-vote margin of victory over Republican incumbent Norm Coleman. FOX News ran with the report earlier in the week, and Wall Street Journal columnist John Fund went on FOX and stated as fact that "hundreds of felons" voted in those two counties.

In reality, that has not been proven. And the actual number of felons who voted illegally will likely be much lower based on reviews from prosecutors who received Minnesota Majority's lists in the form of spread sheets in February.

"We received about 480 names from Minnesota Majority," Ramsey County's lead prosecutor Phil Carruthers told KARE Wednesday, "About 270 were clearly inaccurate and were rejected right from the get-go."
[...]
There are 30 felons on the group's list that have been charged with election violations in Ramsey County. But prosecutors had already received those names from the county elections office and the Secretary of State's office, according to Carruthers.

"We've charged about 30 cases so far," he said, "About half of them were people who were felons who just registered but did not actually vote. Election workers flagged those names before they could vote, but it's still a felony for a felon to register."

source

One group says 480, actual number of votes cast illegally was about 15. Further it's not clear that any of these voted in the Senate race, "more than 400,000 Minnesotans skipped the Senate race while voting for president in 2008" (source).

Comprehensive Database of U.S. Voter Fraud Uncovers No Evidence That Photo ID Is Needed

This makes clear what has been noted in this thread, Voter IDs aren't going to address the bulk of voting irregularities that take place in the US. The people proposing the measures likely know this already, so what's their motive?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

one is also assuming they voted for Franken which is not presented here.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

http://democraticgovernors.org/gop-voting-fraud-claims-debunked/?source=outbrain&subsource=votingfraud wrote:

Nikki Haley Takes Heat After Report Blows Up ‘Bogus’ Voter Fraud Claims In South Carolina

The Huffington Post | By Nick Wing Posted: 07/09/2013 9:44 am EDT | Updated: 07/09/2013 4:34 pm EDT

For years, South Carolina Republicans have complained about the names of dead voters being used to cast ballots in a broad voter fraud scheme. Now that a recent report by the State Law Enforcement Division has blown up those claims, unable to find a single example of a “zombie voter” committing fraud, one Democrat is demanding that Gov. Nikki Haley (R) apologize for her party’s “bogus” crusade.

In a statement released Monday, House Democratic Leader Todd Rutherford accused Haley and other Republicans of deliberately and deceptively pushing false claims for political gain.

“Now we have the proof that shows that the accusations of voter fraud were completely without merit,” said Rutherford. “And once again, South Carolina’s taxpayers have to foot the bill for the millions of dollars unnecessarily spent as a result of Governor Haley and her colleagues’ incompetence and blind-ideology.”

Rutherford went on to call for Haley and Republicans to “acknowledge that they were being dishonest about voter fraud” and to “apologize to the public.”

For months, state Republicans highlighted a report from DMV director and Haley appointee Kevin Shwedo that claimed a review of state records had determined around 950 dead people might have voted in the 2010 election. While Shwedo admitted that reporting errors could have led to the discrepancy, the GOP suggested that the identities had been assumed to commit voter fraud, a possibility that was used to bolster controversial voter ID legislation in the state.

After SLED’s report, it turns out that non-malicious errors were ultimately to blame for the DMV numbers. In a statement released in response to Rutherford’s attack, however, Haley spokesperson Rob Godfrey said that voter ID was still important, despite the failure of Republican voter fraud complaints to pan out.

“No matter what kind of distractions, rhetoric, or lawsuits have come from opponents of voter ID, the truth is it has always been about one thing and one thing only — securing the electoral process,” he said, according to WIS-TV. “It’s a shame to see Democrats like Todd Rutherford continue to oppose simple measures like showing a picture ID to vote, measures that make sure those who are eligible to vote do vote, and those who aren’t don’t.”

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you have to wonder who its being secured against.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

you have to wonder who its being secured against.

http://latino.foxnews.com/2013/08/15/children-immigrants-unaware-theyre-already-us-citizens/?intcmp=obnetwork
Legal citizens, I suspect ...

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you have to wonder who its being secured against.

http://latino.foxnews.com/2013/08/15/children-immigrants-unaware-theyre-already-us-citizens/?intcmp=obnetwork
Legal citizens, I suspect ...

The problem of countries claiming that children born in their country are citizens, is not one confined to the US. A UK person I knew in the 1960's, was arrested entering Germany, for not reporting for conscription.

The reason was because his family was in Germany because his date was in the UK Armed Forces, but for some reason he was born in a German civilian hospital, who issued a German birth certificate. He didn't even know he had a German Birth certificate because he also had a UK one and had always used that.

It took some time to sort out and as he was also serving in the UK Army, he was being treated as AWOL.

I can understand why the US has this law, it was probably a way of increasing the population in the early days. But is it relevant now?

But of course that asks the question, how should citizenship be decided?
From father or mother or birthplace or where you want at some age when you are mature, if they will have you.

Plus there is the problem of very young illegals, who know no other life but the country they were raised in, who can be deported or not allowed to take up the profession they have trained in. California high court to decide if illegal immigrant can practice law

Its not a law so much as its an amendment to the Constitution. It seems that we had a little go at slavery and the 14th Amendment was intended to grant citizenship to all former slaves. The sad thing was that the amendment was decisively vague on future illegal immigrants having children or future implementation of the Amendment. Had the just stated that the Amendment was to insure citizenship to former slaves and native Americans born in the US or Us held territories we wouldn't be in the boat we are in now.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope