That is what I have in essence already said. Sorry not biting today, nice try.

Incorrect again, please read what you post. "Has the option?" HE has no option whatsoever!

Edit: Unless of course if there's been an accident ahead & he's being legitimately re-routed.

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He would have been looking at some sort of signal allowing him to proceed right up until the moment the other train went past the Stop, so he probably wouldn't have had time to stop either, even if he could react instantly.

That is an engineering design flaw. And it may be systemic in the railroad industry. In a properly designed system no combination of circumstances, timing or positions, would allow permit both engineers to see proceed signals.

I didn't say they both saw Clear signals; if they did, then it was indeed a design flaw. (Such an incident occurred in Montgomery, IL, in the late 1960s. A manually operated tower was being converted to CTC and someone wired something wrong.) But if the space from the eastbound signal through the crossovers to the westbound signal was (to make up a number) 800 feet and the train with the Clear was 500 feet from the signal when the other train went through its Stop signal, 1,300 feet would not be enough space for either of them to stop, let alone both of them at their closing speed.

This may require an empty block between to get the signaling safe,

That's an idea, but I don't know if the reduced efficiency would be justified.

or a complete redesign of the signaling system so it knows more than just block occupied. This way both get stop signals with at least a full block of track between them.

The new PTC system being developed would know exactly where each train is and take action to keep them from colliding, even in places where there is no signal system at all.

IIRC some US roads are set up this way with the signals, but the operating rules permit passing, at restricted speed, what was intended to be a hard stop when the system was designed. Costs them too much money if they actually had to keep the trains that far apart. Unfortunately this cuts safety and accidents result.

Not just Restricted Speed, but able to stop within half their range of vision.

As to blocks, there are blocks and there are signal blocks. They are not the same. There may be several blocks inside a single signal block. In a yard would be an obvious example. However it happens on single track mainline as well. Industrial areas where they have loops so cars in the middle can be set out on spurs are a prime example.

There are several types of blocks, depending on the type of dispatching and signal systems in use.

On a CTC system, a CTC block several miles long may have several Automatic Block Signals within it so that when multiple trains are going the same way, each one doesn't have to wait for the previous one to get all the way to the end before it can enter; they are kept separate by the block signals and if one train stops unexpectedly, the next one gets a Restricting signal. On a single track line with sidings, the sidings may or may not be bonded, meaning that the dispatcher may or may not have an indication that the siding is occupied. If a siding is unbonded, the only possible signal indication leading into it is Restricting. (Modern computerized dispatching systems are able to display a reminder to the dispatcher that a train is there, even if there is no "official" indication of it.)

In Automatic Block Signal territory, the signals are completely automatic with no dispatcher control. In such territory, there must be another form of dispatcher control. In modern times, this is usually Track Warrant Control. The dispatcher will dictate to a train crew which lines to check and what information to fill into the blanks on a preprinted form that covers any possible operating scenario. One commonly used line on the form is Box 2 Proceed from __________ to __________ on ___________ Track. Then there are two other lines (8 and 9, I think); one of them says hold main track at last named point and the other says clear main track at last named point. If the dispatcher wants two trains going opposite ways to meet at that point, one holds the main and the other takes the siding. The last line of the form has a blank space to write in how many and which of the above lines were checked. The crew must repeat it back to the dispatcher absolutely correctly. Then the dispatcher tells them it's correct and gives his initials, and the crew repeats back that it was copied correctly and the dispatcher's initials. I think whoever copied the warrant also has to give his name and position (conductor, engineer...) When this system was developed in the 1980s, it depended entirely on the dispatcher's brain to avoid issuing conflicting warrants, but now they use a computer that won't allow conflicts. Warrants can also be printed out and faxed to the crew if they haven't left their terminal yet; then the crew would sign it and fax it back.

TWC is also used in dark territory, the only difference being that without ABS, maximum speeds are lower.

A variation on TWC is Direct Traffic Control. The line is divided into blocks (which may or may not have anything to do with any other characteristic of the line, including the signals if any) and the warrant is permission to occupy or operate through one or more blocks.

Industrial spurs are usually not signaled at all (exceptions are places where unit trains enter and leave the main, such as coal mines, oil loading terminals, grain elevators, etc., and the destinations for those same trains). The switches leading to them are hand operated. In CTC, if a switch is left open the dispatcher would get a track light (an indication of something going on in the block, but not what it is) and a train lined into it would get a Restricting signal. That might happen in ABS too. Since a freight train crash in Bettendorf, IA, a few years ago, when crews report to the dispatcher that they are clear of a warrant, they have to first confer amongst themselves and make sure, then state to the dispatcher, that either no switches were handled or that all switches handled were returned to their proper position. I've even heard one crew member report clear of a warrant, the dispatcher ask if all crew members concur on the switch status, and the other crew member respond affirmative. PTC will have sensors on the switches to verify this.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

That is what I have in essence already said. Sorry not biting today, nice try.

Incorrect again, please read what you post. "Has the option?" HE has no option whatsoever!

But then it's a matter of getting the train to its destination, not a safety issue.

Edit: Unless of course if there's been an accident ahead & he's being legitimately re-routed.

In that case, he probably would already have been contacted by the dispatcher and informed of what's going on.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

What about the times before the GPS existed. Then people had to look at a map while driving...

Before I used a Thomas Bros map book, today I use the net at home and I memorize which routes I take and what exit is at My final destination, I've still got pretty good long term memory, gps I don't use, but then I don't use a smart 'aleck' phone, I like a flip phone better, anyone I want to cut off I can just flip shut the phone, which kills the connection...

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Why would a train driver need a map? In case he makes a wrong turn somewhere?

Exactly what I was thinking actually

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

Why would a train driver need a map? In case he makes a wrong turn somewhere?

To make sure he knows all the characteristics of the track he will be operating on. Speed restrictions, height/weight restrictions, etc.

In the late 1970s, the Rock Island got some funding from the State of Illinois to repair some temporary speed restrictions on the tracks used by its remaining passenger trains (the Rock didn't join Amtrak because it didn't have the cash up front to buy in). The restrictions had been in so long that crews forgot that at one location there was a permanent restriction on a tight curve. A freight train came flying around that curve and scared the pants off an agent on the ground. Luckily, nothing happened.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

Its not uncommon to have a "line map", which gives the locations of signals, speed limits and so on. Very often these are simple linear representations that treat the railway as a straight line with symbolic representation of the important features.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Always interesting to know where you are exactly or to know which fission of the railway to take (if that's on the map...)

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

Its not uncommon to have a "line map", which gives the locations of signals, speed limits and so on. Very often these are simple linear representations that treat the railway as a straight line with symbolic representation of the important features.

"Not uncommon"? The Employee Timetable, containing those diagrams and all the pertinent rules and permanent restrictions, is required to be carried by every operating employee. (I speak, of course, of North America, but I would think it would be true of Europe too.)

Here's a link to the system timetable for the Iowa Interstate Railroad, a 500 mile regional. It's not the most current one; they tend to prefer to keep the current one out of the hands of the public.

And here is a used copy of the CORA timetable I bought recently. It's dated 2004. All the railroads in the Chicago Switching District got together and published this ring binder with all the relevant sections of their timetables for all their tracks within the District. You can see how thick it is. Each of the tabs is for a different railroad. Each railroad issues updates as needed for its section.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

Wow! Looks almost like a phone book in thickness...

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Wow! Looks almost like a phone book in thickness...

About a big city phone book, yes. But not that thin paper.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

Actually that's quite thin when compared to the "Sectional Appendix", or the "Rules of the Route", or the "Operations Timetable" for one UK zone (region) Each of those runs to several hundred pages. Then there's the relevant extract, monthly notices, weekly notices, daily notices.... Most drivers will only carry the "relevant extract" which gives details for the exact route they are operating on (with its normal diversions), the the monthly and weekly notices which addenda and updates, and have to read the daily notices as part of their clocking-on duties. A few will carry the zone's Sectional Appendix (the route maps, and loads of other info). Few passenger drivers carry the "Rules of the Route" because that is mainly concerned with planning issues not operational issues - the important bits for drivers appear in the notices anyway. The train crew will have copies of their shift diagram timetable (often on a weekly basis).
Of course the smart ones have this lot on their PDAs/smart phones so they can check things when not driving (its instant suspension if caught using either when driving)

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

In argentina they have put camera to check the conductor
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?ref=IE8Activity&from=&to=en&a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.985fm.ca%2finternational%2fnouvelles%2fcameras-dans-les-trains-en-argentine-des-conducte-256341.html

In argentina they have put camera to check the conductor
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?ref=IE8Activity&from=&to=en&a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.985fm.ca%2finternational%2fnouvelles%2fcameras-dans-les-trains-en-argentine-des-conducte-256341.html

A federal judge ruled last week in favor of Kansas City Southern's decision to do the same.

If management starts looking at these cameras for excuses to discipline crews, they will find their trains taking longer to get over the road. For example, an engineer who has to pee will now stop the train instead of letting the conductor keep watch for him.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

Wow! Looks almost like a phone book in thickness...

About a big city phone book, yes. But not that thin paper.

Either way, if you have to know all that by heart, keeps you busy for a while...

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

Most drivers in the UK have a highly visual memory routes they drive, learnt by travelling the route many times. They are also tested periodically to make sure their understanding of the route is correct.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

About time

But can't see how they're going to enforce it. Someone has a joint or two & drives normally, how will they be detected?

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Most drivers in the UK have a highly visual memory routes they drive, learnt by travelling the route many times. They are also tested periodically to make sure their understanding of the route is correct.

Same here, but if they are sent down a route they haven't used in a while it's always possible to forget a detail. Thus, have the timetable handy to check it over.

I understand that Air Force and Navy pilots are only allowed to be certified on two types of aircraft at a time. If they get certified on a third, they have to drop one of the others, even if they just flew it yesterday. They also lose it if they haven't flown it in a certain amount of time. Similarly, train crews lose their qualification on a route after not running on it for a time.

It could also be that the paper rustling sounds from the Spain crash were the driver looking for blank paper, or a blank form, to copy a new order or restriction.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

Now for the other side of travelling in safety....

Passengers on trains expect to arrive at their destinations in comfort and not have their drinks shaken but stirred....

Wonder what her excuse was? Didn't see the warnings?

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Too arrogant to obey the very obvious signs & signals, and in too much of a rush to get past the other road users waiting for the trains.
A Darwin Awards "near miss"...

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?