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Author | Message |
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Intelligent Design Send message Joined: 9 Apr 12 Posts: 3626 Credit: 37,520 RAC: 0 |
Why not a floating museum? My father was in tears when the U.S.S. New Jersey was decommissioned. I'm sorry for your loss. Must not conflict resolve by suggesting that someone should go sit on an ice pick... |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30640 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Better you see the inside or her like that, rather than like this: |
Intelligent Design Send message Joined: 9 Apr 12 Posts: 3626 Credit: 37,520 RAC: 0 |
Thankyou ID. Many many people in the UK are very angry at her fate, many years before she could have served out her operational life. And yes, she could have been a floating museum, a fitting end to her service. If I ever meet certain people face to face they will regret it, I can promise you that. +1 Must not conflict resolve by suggesting that someone should go sit on an ice pick... |
The Simonator Send message Joined: 18 Nov 04 Posts: 5700 Credit: 3,855,702 RAC: 50 |
Gives them chance to start work on the sixth Ark Royal. Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge. |
Bill Walker Send message Joined: 4 Sep 99 Posts: 3868 Credit: 2,697,267 RAC: 0 |
You can't save them all Chris, there isn't enough time or money or dock space. You could publish equally "upsetting" (to somebody) photos of planes, tanks, truck, fire engines, train locomotives, etc. being recycled. I felt a few moments sadness when the last drafting machines left my place of employment back in the 1980s. Where are the drafting machines and slide rules that laid out the lines of the Ark Royal? Why weren't they saved? Where does this stop? As for the MOD people being ashamed, you should be asking did they get a fair price for the scrap metal? That is what you pay them to do. How much are you willing to pay in extra taxes to save and maintain the old hardware? I spend a lot of time tracking down "preserved" ex-military aircraft, and often find them disolving in the weeds somewhere because they were "saved" by somebody who didn't understand the upkeep process and costs. That is probably sadder than knowing the airplane had been recycled into something useful. |
MOMMY: He is MAKING ME Read His Posts Thoughts and Prayers. GOoD Thoughts and GOoD Prayers. HATERWORLD Vs THOUGHTs and PRAYERs World. It Is a BATTLE ROYALE. Nobody LOVEs Me. Everybody HATEs Me. Why Don't I Go Eat Worms. Tasty Treats are Wormy Meat. Yes Send message Joined: 16 Jun 02 Posts: 6895 Credit: 6,588,977 RAC: 0 |
Very sad times Yes, These are Sad Times for Chris S. He has Gone Posting Mad. Better if He had Gone Fishing. Ripping The Lips out of da Fisheees is So Calming. PO Fisheees. FO SHO. May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!! |
Bill Walker Send message Joined: 4 Sep 99 Posts: 3868 Credit: 2,697,267 RAC: 0 |
And Navy experts say they could have done with a carrier and Harriers in recent Med area conflicts, rather than sending planes from Scotland. They always want more Chris. I rephrase the question: how much more tax are you willing to pay to avoid repeating your humiliating defeat in the recent Med area conflict? Also, which Med area conflict was that? I guess I missed the humiliating defeat bit. |
Bill Walker Send message Joined: 4 Sep 99 Posts: 3868 Credit: 2,697,267 RAC: 0 |
The med conflict I meant was Libya. The Ark Royal and Harriers were decommissioned on 11th March 2011, UK military action started on 19th March 2011. My point being, did your military really NEED Harriers and carriers, or did they just WANT Harriers and carriers? |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24879 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
The med conflict I meant was Libya. The Ark Royal and Harriers were decommissioned on 11th March 2011, UK military action started on 19th March 2011. Falklands proved that point. |
Bill Walker Send message Joined: 4 Sep 99 Posts: 3868 Credit: 2,697,267 RAC: 0 |
Historically, a lot of time, money and lives have been wasted by militaries that prepared for the last war. The successful ones are planning for the next war. The root cause for Argentina's defeat in the Falklands is that their policy makers undertook actions that their military could not support. The UK has to decide if the Falkands is still defensible, given the budget realities the UK faces now and in the future. Back to my question that nobody wants to answer: how much more tax are you willing to pay to keep Harriers and carriers? (Hint: remember that in a democracy you need a majority of voters to agree on your answer to this question.) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30640 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
It has been decided that future wars will be fought with a coalition of nations against a common enemy, you will never see another Falklands again. So Argentina is free to move in .... And Spain can as well .... |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30640 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Oi! that is not what I intimated. Careful choice of words goes a long way. So does careful planing at the country level. |
Bill Walker Send message Joined: 4 Sep 99 Posts: 3868 Credit: 2,697,267 RAC: 0 |
I think Chris meant "you will never see an exact repeat of the Falklands again". The Argentineans could be plotting their next move as we speak, but things have changed. Chris makes two good points. Satellite surveillance (now a multi-nation undertaking) goes a long way to making an exact repeat of the Falklands much less likely. Future conflicts are very likely to be multi-national. Like Libya, and Bosnia, and Afghanistan, and.... If you wanted to keep friends on your side for future Falkland-like events, you might consider helping your allies in cases where your short-term national objectives are a little fuzzy. Like British troops in Iraq for example. Or Canadian troops in Afghanistan. Both these points are good reasons to scrap the carriers and Harriers and spend your limited money elsewhere. Canada scrapped our last carrier in 1970, we got over it. |
Bill Walker Send message Joined: 4 Sep 99 Posts: 3868 Credit: 2,697,267 RAC: 0 |
It was a pure political decision to save money and nothing else. The main reason for the downfall of the old Soviet Empire was their allowing the military and its supporting industries to make economic decisions without political oversight. We might soon say the same about the downfall of the US Empire. British troops in Iraq was as the result of Bush pulling the old pals act with the UK, saying we are going in anyway despite the UN saying no, and we "expect" you to join us. Hinting that it might change the special relationship if we refused. But yes it was fuzzy. Yeah, Bush tried that on Canada as well. We said no, assuming we had earned enough points elsewhere to handle future situations. But then, we don't have a crumbling overseas empire to hold on to. Time will tell if we were right. |
Nick Send message Joined: 11 Oct 11 Posts: 4344 Credit: 3,313,107 RAC: 0 |
Yeah, Bush tried that on Canada as well. We said no, assuming we had earned enough points elsewhere to handle future situations. But then, we don't have a crumbling overseas empire to hold on to. Time will tell if we were right. Thankfully ours has gone now, less cost to the exchequer. The Kite Fliers -------------------- Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24879 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
We erred on the side of caution. Who is we? Don't you mean the politicians erred on the side of caution? Remember I did mention Willie Vague elsewhere sometime ago regarding Syria. That is going to cost us if the UK gets involved militariy. If Obama wants it to be a red ine, let the States handle it. |
James Sotherden Send message Joined: 16 May 99 Posts: 10436 Credit: 110,373,059 RAC: 54 |
I think some nations should have an aircraft carrier or two. Free trade depends on having shipping going to and fro with no worrys of pirates or outright hostile acts by another nation. And speaking of pirates. That prblem could be solved by going back to the tried and true use of convoys. Something you Brits started back in WW1 for the U- boats. I think the Somalian pirates would not want to tackel any frigate or destroyer on patrol. And if they did They should be blasted out of the water. Canada made the right choice on not having a carrier. I think the UK still needs them. France has one now. And China has one they are finding out what they can do with. I think they will improve on that Russian one they have now, and build a lot more. And thats what worries me. [/quote] Old James |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20265 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Historically, a lot of time, money and lives have been wasted by militaries that prepared for the last war. The successful ones are planning for the next war. ... Unfortunately, war and especially the threat of war has historically been the most often used form of politics. Our recent times of long term comparative peace in Europe is something that is new... The best of politics is in how to use the available tools to avoid going to war and yet maintain influence... The world is what we make it... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20265 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Sad but times move on... Back to the future - The shipping gallery which lives on in time and space The Science Museum is transforming its largest exhibition space into a new gallery dedicated to the information technology revolution. The exhibition will replace the museum's Shipping Galleries which closed last year after almost 50 years. Here, Science Museum staff describe how the outgoing collection has been captured using 3D laser technology, and how the new exhibition, Information Age, is coming together. Video Journalist: Neil Bowdler The world is very much what we make it... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Bill Walker Send message Joined: 4 Sep 99 Posts: 3868 Credit: 2,697,267 RAC: 0 |
Try to keep up boys. Pirate activity off the east of Africa is at a multi-year low. Not because of carriers or convoys, but because of: satellite production and exchange of information between nations; multi-national cooperation with small, cost effective surface vessels, helicopters and UAVs (some military, some police, some private); and political/economic actions at the root causes- i.e. court convictions and addressing poverty and political stability in east Africa. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/01/opinion/global/shutting-down-the-piracy-business.html?_r=0 There are lessons in all this. As I said before, you need to prepare for the next war, not the last one. |
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