London Shard and other protests


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Profile Chris SProject donor
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Message 1403497 - Posted: 15 Aug 2013, 17:00:54 UTC

and the fact that this thread exists and remains active a month later is a sign that they have already made some difference.

Wrong! The only reason that this thread still exists is because I say they wasted their time others say they didn't, and people want to debate that. It has got nothing whatsoever to do with their actions making any difference in the arctic.


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Message 1403572 - Posted: 15 Aug 2013, 19:23:53 UTC - in response to Message 1403497.

They raised awareness and prompted thought.

I would say mission accomplished.
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Message 1403632 - Posted: 15 Aug 2013, 20:40:47 UTC

They raised awareness and prompted thought.

For a brief time yes they did. But it wont make any difference in the long term.

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Message 1403692 - Posted: 15 Aug 2013, 23:14:24 UTC - in response to Message 1403497.

and the fact that this thread exists and remains active a month later is a sign that they have already made some difference.

Wrong! The only reason that this thread still exists is because I say they wasted their time others say they didn't, and people want to debate that. It has got nothing whatsoever to do with their actions making any difference in the arctic.


Climber charged

Not to split hairs or anything, though only after you moved the goalposts could your "Wrong" comment be correct. There was no "in the arctic" qualification in your earlier post:

Chris S wrote:
The fact that it won't make any difference still needs to be accepted, by them and everybody else, which it isn't.


As for whether the action will make a difference to Shell's activities in the arctic in the longer term, well, your crystal ball seems to be better than mine, as I have no clue.
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1403825 - Posted: 16 Aug 2013, 9:01:50 UTC

I didn't change the goalposts Bobby, I just reminded people what the original goalposts were, and the original reason for the Shard protest in the first place.

But, there are occasions when protests do have a direct immediate effect. Fracking protests

I think this is turning into another Dale farm, where the majority of the protesters are not there against fracking, they are just professional activists intent on any excuse to undermine authority and cause the establishment trouble. They have suspended operations not because of the protests st fracking, but upon police advice after threats to damage plant and machinery. Again the protesters will say that the protest is successful because drilling will be stopped. But it wont be because they have convinced the drillers that fracking in wrong in itself.

Some might say that if the end result is what we wanted does it matter what caused the end result? I would say it does matter, because the drillers may well go on to drill again elsewhere if they are not yet convinced drilling is intrinsically wrong. NIMBYism in Balcombe?

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Message 1404048 - Posted: 16 Aug 2013, 22:40:55 UTC

Told you! Obviously going to happen.

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Message 1405014 - Posted: 19 Aug 2013, 13:04:20 UTC - in response to Message 1404048.

Told you! Obviously going to happen.

Activists


From the article:
"This is the mood of the country and the government don't realise that."

It is not the mood of myself, or anyone i know, and the protesters don't (or won't) realise that!
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Message 1405049 - Posted: 19 Aug 2013, 15:29:41 UTC
Last modified: 19 Aug 2013, 15:33:18 UTC

Police served a Public Order Act notice, saying the crowd might cause serious damage to property or disrupt the life of the community.

"This an outrageously aggressive response to a day of principled civil disobedience,"

"The government is not listening so I think there are times when peaceful direct action can be legitimate."

I see, so deliberate Civil Disobedience is peaceful is it? Police having to serve Public Order notices to protect property is aggressive is it? Green Party MP's getting arrested is principled is it?

Grow up you Green lot! You'd protest at someone standing on a blade of grass, if you thought you'd get your picture in the paper, and there was 1/2 of shandy down the pub later.

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Message 1405083 - Posted: 19 Aug 2013, 16:17:54 UTC

Arrest the lot of them and have done with it.
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Message 1405126 - Posted: 19 Aug 2013, 17:36:54 UTC

yes deliberate civil disobedience can be peaceful. It is never well appreciated by those trying to enforce against it.

Where peaceful protests fail, often violent protests follow. Shutting up dissent is not the answer. Discussing it intelligently often is.
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Message 1405131 - Posted: 19 Aug 2013, 17:42:38 UTC

Shutting up dissent is not the answer. Discussing it intelligently often is.

But when most of those causing the dissent are not capable of discussing it intelligently then what do you do?

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Message 1405137 - Posted: 19 Aug 2013, 17:50:02 UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4

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Message 1405142 - Posted: 19 Aug 2013, 18:03:14 UTC

Not the answer ....

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Message 1405143 - Posted: 19 Aug 2013, 18:03:59 UTC - in response to Message 1405049.

Green Party MP's getting arrested is principled is it?


So not a Westminister muppet then?
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Message 1405147 - Posted: 19 Aug 2013, 18:06:41 UTC - in response to Message 1405126.
Last modified: 19 Aug 2013, 18:07:27 UTC

yes deliberate civil disobedience can be peaceful. It is never well appreciated by those trying to enforce against it.

Where peaceful protests fail, often violent protests follow. Shutting up dissent is not the answer. Discussing it intelligently often is.

I've been on quite a few peaceful protests that have turned violent, I've watched time and time again who struck the first blows and now I know that when you come across the police hiding around a corner putting on riot gear and hiding their police numbers and faces you leave because THEY are about to start stuff.

They don't like you taking pictures of doing it either. I guess it doesn't play well with the media story they put out.
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Message 1405167 - Posted: 19 Aug 2013, 18:53:38 UTC
Last modified: 19 Aug 2013, 18:55:08 UTC

I will take a middle view here.

Faced with a protest that is getting nasty and out of control, the best way is to go in quick and hard and finish it. The police have a legal duty to control riots and Civil disorder.

However, unjustified and over the top police violence is totally unacceptable, and will not be tolerated. Covering up police numbers is sensible. Even if they did act perfectly properly, they could, and probably would by activists, be traced by various means, and privately subjected to antagonism and abuse.

The problem that we have is that most peaceful protests are intended to be just that by the organisers, and the genuine protesters that turn up. But there are too many professional groups of anarchists and troublemakers that use innocent demonstrations for their own agenda of overthrowing law and order. Those on the front line throwing bricks, stones, broken bottles, injuring police horses and police officers are most likely the anarchists. So they get dealt with.

It is getting to the stage where it is almost impossible to attend a protest, intended to be peaceful, that doesn't get hijacked. We saw it in Dale Farm, we are seeing it again in the Sussex fracking situation, we will see it again.

you leave because THEY are about to start stuff.

Why aren't others as sensible as you?

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Message 1405309 - Posted: 20 Aug 2013, 1:52:29 UTC - in response to Message 1405167.

I will take a middle view here.

Faced with a protest that is getting nasty and out of control, the best way is to go in quick and hard and finish it. The police have a legal duty to control riots and Civil disorder.

Sure, but that is not what is going on. You've heard of kettling haven't you? where law abiding protesters are detained illegally, sometimes for hours without access to water or toilet facilities? I'd be ready to throw a brick at someone if that happened to me.

However, unjustified and over the top police violence is totally unacceptable, and will not be tolerated. Covering up police numbers is sensible.

Seriously? You want your police anonymous and unaccountable?? Seriously?? You have seen how people behave when they believe they are anonymous, why would you think it is sensible for the police to behave like that? Since people have been able to video police abuse with phones do you know how many police have been shown to be wrongdoers?

Even if they did act perfectly properly, they could, and probably would by activists, be traced by various means, and privately subjected to antagonism and abuse.

Even if the protesters behave perfectly properly, they could and are forced by the police to have their photos taken by the police (see kettling).

Let me tell you something about the police that you have so much faith in. I've taught a lot of kids over the years, a lot of difficult teens and there is a certain type of kid who will either go into the police or become a criminal. Those are the people who join the police. The same people who become criminals. One just chooses to wear a uniform.

The problem that we have is that most peaceful protests are intended to be just that by the organisers, and the genuine protesters that turn up. But there are too many professional groups of anarchists and troublemakers that use innocent demonstrations for their own agenda of overthrowing law and order.

Anarchist is an umbrella term, I am sure people here like Guy (who is technically an anarchist) would have something to say about the assumption that just because you don't like top down government you are automatically out to start a riot. You might also want to be aware that a surprising amount of undercover police have infiltrated certain anarchist groups and have been shown to be the ones that start the trouble. Its a funny world.

Those on the front line throwing bricks, stones, broken bottles, injuring police horses and police officers are most likely the anarchists. So they get dealt with.

I would term myself an anarchist. You need to look up that term and find out what it actually means.

I've never thrown a brick or bottle in my life, but try to illegally detain me, assault me and yeah, I probably would.

It is getting to the stage where it is almost impossible to attend a protest, intended to be peaceful, that doesn't get hijacked. We saw it in Dale Farm, we are seeing it again in the Sussex fracking situation, we will see it again.

Read what you said and ask yourself the real question. Why do so many protests end that way? What is really going on there?

you leave because THEY are about to start stuff.

Why aren't others as sensible as you?

Sensible? I shouldn't have my right to protest infringed by police tactics and thuggery. Its not something to be happy about. Its something you should be upset about.
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Message 1405370 - Posted: 20 Aug 2013, 4:34:18 UTC - in response to Message 1405167.

Covering up police numbers is sensible.

If a police officer does that on this side of the pond and gets caught, he is subject to firing at the least. Good old cowboy cops named Bubba do this, so they can continue to beat non-resisting "suspect" and not get in trouble for a use of force incident like Rodney King.

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Message 1413653 - Posted: 10 Sep 2013, 8:20:43 UTC

Looks like a Dale Farm MkII eviction is about to get underway. I wonder how many of them are genuine protesters and how many are just professional troublemakers.

Fracking protest

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Message 1413662 - Posted: 10 Sep 2013, 9:09:39 UTC

Chris. Have you ever stood up for anything ??

I like to think that the anti Vietnam War demonstrations I marched in during 1969 ultimately led to a change of government and the withdrawal of Australian troops in 1972.

While I was not directly involved in the Franklin River protests, I like to think that the letters I wrote to my MP helped to sway the governments stance.

In each case the protesters suffered the same smears you are dishing out now. It happens every time someone sees a wrong in the status quo and seeks to change it.

William Booth and the others who fought to get children out of the mines and factories, Ghandi, the rebels of the Eureka Stockade, the Barons who forced King John to sign the Magna Carta have all been subject the insults of grumpy old conservatives. The effect of their protests is not necessarily immediate but in the long term everything they fought for has come about.

T.A.

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