yes deliberate civil disobedience can be peaceful. It is never well appreciated by those trying to enforce against it.

Where peaceful protests fail, often violent protests follow. Shutting up dissent is not the answer. Discussing it intelligently often is.

I've been on quite a few peaceful protests that have turned violent, I've watched time and time again who struck the first blows and now I know that when you come across the police hiding around a corner putting on riot gear and hiding their police numbers and faces you leave because THEY are about to start stuff.

They don't like you taking pictures of doing it either. I guess it doesn't play well with the media story they put out.

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Reality Internet Personality

I will take a middle view here.

Faced with a protest that is getting nasty and out of control, the best way is to go in quick and hard and finish it. The police have a legal duty to control riots and Civil disorder.

Sure, but that is not what is going on. You've heard of kettling haven't you? where law abiding protesters are detained illegally, sometimes for hours without access to water or toilet facilities? I'd be ready to throw a brick at someone if that happened to me.

However, unjustified and over the top police violence is totally unacceptable, and will not be tolerated. Covering up police numbers is sensible.

Seriously? You want your police anonymous and unaccountable?? Seriously?? You have seen how people behave when they believe they are anonymous, why would you think it is sensible for the police to behave like that? Since people have been able to video police abuse with phones do you know how many police have been shown to be wrongdoers?

Even if they did act perfectly properly, they could, and probably would by activists, be traced by various means, and privately subjected to antagonism and abuse.

Even if the protesters behave perfectly properly, they could and are forced by the police to have their photos taken by the police (see kettling).

Let me tell you something about the police that you have so much faith in. I've taught a lot of kids over the years, a lot of difficult teens and there is a certain type of kid who will either go into the police or become a criminal. Those are the people who join the police. The same people who become criminals. One just chooses to wear a uniform.

The problem that we have is that most peaceful protests are intended to be just that by the organisers, and the genuine protesters that turn up. But there are too many professional groups of anarchists and troublemakers that use innocent demonstrations for their own agenda of overthrowing law and order.

Anarchist is an umbrella term, I am sure people here like Guy (who is technically an anarchist) would have something to say about the assumption that just because you don't like top down government you are automatically out to start a riot. You might also want to be aware that a surprising amount of undercover police have infiltrated certain anarchist groups and have been shown to be the ones that start the trouble. Its a funny world.

Those on the front line throwing bricks, stones, broken bottles, injuring police horses and police officers are most likely the anarchists. So they get dealt with.

I would term myself an anarchist. You need to look up that term and find out what it actually means.

I've never thrown a brick or bottle in my life, but try to illegally detain me, assault me and yeah, I probably would.

It is getting to the stage where it is almost impossible to attend a protest, intended to be peaceful, that doesn't get hijacked. We saw it in Dale Farm, we are seeing it again in the Sussex fracking situation, we will see it again.

Read what you said and ask yourself the real question. Why do so many protests end that way? What is really going on there?

you leave because THEY are about to start stuff.

Why aren't others as sensible as you?

Sensible? I shouldn't have my right to protest infringed by police tactics and thuggery. Its not something to be happy about. Its something you should be upset about.

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Reality Internet Personality

Covering up police numbers is sensible.

If a police officer does that on this side of the pond and gets caught, he is subject to firing at the least. Good old cowboy cops named Bubba do this, so they can continue to beat non-resisting "suspect" and not get in trouble for a use of force incident like Rodney King.

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Chris. Have you ever stood up for anything ??

I like to think that the anti Vietnam War demonstrations I marched in during 1969 ultimately led to a change of government and the withdrawal of Australian troops in 1972.

While I was not directly involved in the Franklin River protests, I like to think that the letters I wrote to my MP helped to sway the governments stance.

In each case the protesters suffered the same smears you are dishing out now. It happens every time someone sees a wrong in the status quo and seeks to change it.

William Booth and the others who fought to get children out of the mines and factories, Ghandi, the rebels of the Eureka Stockade, the Barons who forced King John to sign the Magna Carta have all been subject the insults of grumpy old conservatives. The effect of their protests is not necessarily immediate but in the long term everything they fought for has come about.

T.A.

Have you ever seen a pig fly?

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Oooh, T.A be careful, you'll end up labelled. Keep up the "good work".

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I wrote

Chris. Have you ever stood up for anything ??

You wrote

So don't you dare to tell me that I haven't stood up for anything, you cheeky little git!

How did you manage to turn an honest question into a negative statement ?

You can bet your bippy that while you were doing all those things there was some old grumpus writing letters to The Times calling you the same names as YOU are using now, and if you were a campaigner for the 35 hour week, they probably threw in "Commo" as well.

If you were involved in the Animal Rights cause from the beginning, you should remember that it was once regarded as cause for "pseudo intellectual dropouts" and unrealistic nutters.

A true cause is never lost, it just has to wait its turn.

Protest movements are a lifestyle for certain sections of society, in the 21C.

And exactly the same thing was said about the Vietnam War protesters 60 years ago.....

Consider my cage mildy rattled.

Then we are square.

T.A.

The way this on one is developing, and the greatly disproportionate overreaction, looks like the protest has hit a very raw exposed nerve for the Russians:


Nobel laureates urge Putin to free Greenpeace activists

Eleven Nobel prize-winners have written to Vladimir Putin asking the Russian president to drop charges against 30 Greenpeace activists and journalists.

The 30, who come from 18 nations, were held last month during a protest against oil drilling in the Arctic.

The signatories - including Archbishop Desmond Tutu - described the charges of piracy as "excessive"...



Note that with the oil industry, oil spills are inevitable and in the Arctic conditions, a cleanup is impossible.

Also note that the underside of the Arctic ice is home to small creatures that feed a very large part of our oceans that then feed the fish we catch...


All on and in our only planet,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Greenpeace are a well meaning outfit that do a lot of good on this planet, and generally I support them especially against the Japanese whaling. But there are times that they bite off more than they can chew, and this is one of them. You do not go around pissing off the Russians!

Typical protest strategy. Call them names, force them into unemployment if you win. It is a stupid strategy that backfires more often than it works.

The Nature Conservancy has done more than Greenpeace ever will with far less, because they engineer solutions and not confrontation. And didn't the entire world see how well confrontation works with the US Congress these past couple of weeks?

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Greenpeace are a well meaning outfit that do a lot of good on this planet, and generally I support them especially against the Japanese whaling. But there are times that they bite off more than they can chew, and this is one of them. You do not go around pissing off the Russians!

Hopefully, they have made enough of a stir to make at least some sort of positive difference.

Meanwhile for saving whales... Greenpeace may well be striving to avoid oil polluting the food source for the whales. However, directly saving the whales has been effectively picked up by Sea Shepherd. Pending the next move by the Japanese whalers, Sea Shepherd are next attempting to persuade the Faroese to progress from their old days of their brutal Viking rape and pillage:

Sunday, Bloody Sunday

On the heels of a weekend which saw 120 pilot whales slain on the shores of the faroes, Sea shepherd global prepares for Operation Grindstop 2014


All on our only one planet,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

http://rt.com/news/greenpeace-arctic-piracy-hooliganism-629/
So they are going to get the Pussy Riot treatment ...

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A nice view of the Shard....



...would have been better if the Tornado was around when that stunt was pulled, flying a little bit lower.....

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