San Fran Airport crash


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Profile Chris S
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Message 1388457 - Posted: 7 Jul 2013, 6:49:56 UTC

This looks nasty.

SF Airport

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Message 1388463 - Posted: 7 Jul 2013, 7:01:11 UTC - in response to Message 1388457.

2 confirmed dead. But could have been a LOT worse. The other ~300 folks need to buy a lottery ticket, it's their lucky day, even if some of them are in hospital.

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Message 1388464 - Posted: 7 Jul 2013, 7:02:43 UTC - in response to Message 1388457.

So far only two died, they were outside the aircraft, probably in the tail section when that section broke off upon landing, everyone else is accounted for and so far, alive, they were lucky, the news was told by an older pilot that the automated landing system was off at SF and more pilots aren't as well trained in landing without automation as they used to be.
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Message 1388493 - Posted: 7 Jul 2013, 8:54:52 UTC - in response to Message 1388464.

Yes, one of the instrument landing systems was out of action, but pilots with that experience don't "forget" how to land a plane. Something else went wrong. Not sure what yet...

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Message 1388494 - Posted: 7 Jul 2013, 8:55:58 UTC - in response to Message 1388464.

The big question is, "why did the plane hit the seawall?".

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Message 1388512 - Posted: 7 Jul 2013, 10:22:36 UTC

Sorry to hear of this type of unfortunate news
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Message 1388515 - Posted: 7 Jul 2013, 10:26:33 UTC

The big question is, "why did the plane hit the seawall?".

The obvious answer seems to be that if the instrument landing system was non-operational, then it was pilot error in coming in to land too low. But this is all hearsay, we will have to wait for the official report. But upon the face of it, it could have been 10 times worse.



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Message 1388541 - Posted: 7 Jul 2013, 15:03:03 UTC

182 people were taken to area Hospitals according to NBC news.
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Message 1388724 - Posted: 8 Jul 2013, 3:49:58 UTC

Well, it is all beginning to come out now.

PF (pilot flying) was being trained in the aircraft.
Weather was reported to be 10 miles viability with a quartering crosswind of 7 knots. Should be no factor.

I looked at the data Flight Tracker had for the plane as it made its approach and it looked to be going a bit too fast a couple miles from the airport and not stabilized as it should be on final. Also it had a sink rate that was too high around 1300fpm. Later looked at the 777 flight manual and it says to abort a landing attempt if the sink rate is over 1000fpm. The last two data frames flight tracked had show the plane very seriously slowing. The next to last frame at 100 feet and 105 knots and the last frame showing 200 feet and 85knots. 85 knots is slower than the stall speed. This indicates the PF pulled back on the yoke to gain altitude, using airspeed to do it, (unless this data frame is post impact). I heard a report that the stall warning system activated 7 seconds before impact. That it took five more seconds before they PF applied power to abort the landing. Too little too late.

At near stall speeds airplanes become very interesting beasts. Many exhibit a counter-intuitive behavior sometimes being called behind the power curve. It that situation increasing the angle of attack, pull back on the yoke, actually makes the plane sink faster and the way to slow the sink is to push forward on the yoke. Airspeed across the airfoil creates more lift.

Saw a new tape of the crash that shows the airplane in flight through stop. It is from far away but it looks like the main landing gear impacted the seawall then the tail strike. The debris field seems to confirm this with the main gear just past the runway threshold. Looks like it bounced quite high before a second impact.

I'm afraid this is yet another textbook example of why a go around is the correct decision for an approach that isn't stabilized at the FAF (Final Approach Fix).

What is yet to come out is if the TP (Training Pilot) was significantly less senior than the PF. If so, was he afraid to rebuke the PF and order a go around while they still had time, because of that pecking order difference?

I really can't fault the PF, no matter how many you do in a simulator, the first time you do it for real it is different. And you have someone instructing you there who is supposed to catch your mistakes. I don't know yet what kind of aircraft he was transitioning from, but long bodies are different as the pilots seat is a lot higher when the mains touch down than in a short body.

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Message 1388814 - Posted: 8 Jul 2013, 11:51:30 UTC - in response to Message 1388512.

Sorry to hear of this type of unfortunate news


+1:(
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rOZZ

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Message 1389093 - Posted: 9 Jul 2013, 5:32:06 UTC

The Senior Stewardess that I heard about made sure that everyone who was aboard was evacuated, even if She had to carry some on Her back, it was later determined She had a broken tail bone, their calling Her a hero, sounds about right to Me.
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Message 1389142 - Posted: 9 Jul 2013, 7:34:42 UTC

+1!
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Message 1389676 - Posted: 11 Jul 2013, 6:30:06 UTC - in response to Message 1389142.
Last modified: 11 Jul 2013, 6:32:54 UTC


Asiana pilot says he was blinded by light prior to crash


Federal crash investigators revealed Wednesday that the pilot flying Asiana Airlines flight 214 told them that he was temporarily blinded by a bright light when 500 feet above the ground.

Laser??

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Message 1389873 - Posted: 11 Jul 2013, 20:56:14 UTC - in response to Message 1389676.


Asiana pilot says he was blinded by light prior to crash


Federal crash investigators revealed Wednesday that the pilot flying Asiana Airlines flight 214 told them that he was temporarily blinded by a bright light when 500 feet above the ground.

Laser??

Insufficient information to begin to make a guess. Did he say is was a color, or was it white like a reflection of the sun?

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Message 1389882 - Posted: 11 Jul 2013, 21:49:33 UTC - in response to Message 1389873.


Asiana pilot says he was blinded by light prior to crash


Federal crash investigators revealed Wednesday that the pilot flying Asiana Airlines flight 214 told them that he was temporarily blinded by a bright light when 500 feet above the ground.

Laser??

Insufficient information to begin to make a guess. Did he say is was a color, or was it white like a reflection of the sun?

The TV news on KTLA said it was a white light and it was above the ground, could be a reflection, even though there was no talk of that in the recorders...
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Message 1389968 - Posted: 12 Jul 2013, 5:59:31 UTC - in response to Message 1389908.


Asiana pilot says he was blinded by light prior to crash


Federal crash investigators revealed Wednesday that the pilot flying Asiana Airlines flight 214 told them that he was temporarily blinded by a bright light when 500 feet above the ground.

Laser??

Insufficient information to begin to make a guess. Did he say is was a color, or was it white like a reflection of the sun?



I have not seen another story about the light.

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Message 1389995 - Posted: 12 Jul 2013, 6:48:33 UTC

I hate to be cynical, but......

Unless what he is saying is backed up by some mention of it in the cockpit voice recorder, it sounds a lot to me like a statement coming from a man who is desperately trying to save his hide.
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Message 1390099 - Posted: 12 Jul 2013, 14:04:27 UTC - in response to Message 1389995.

I hate to be cynical, but......

Unless what he is saying is backed up by some mention of it in the cockpit voice recorder, it sounds a lot to me like a statement coming from a man who is desperately trying to save his hide.

Did read that in the interview he did state it did not cause him any seeing issue, that he was able to clearly see the airspeed was too low and the PAPI (Precision Approach Path Indicator) was showing them too low.

I suspect inexperience of the PF to realize the auto-throttles had disengaged and inexperience of the CP to know what to check for and perhaps a reluctance to speak up, coupled with all the other crap commercial pilots have to do in what should be a sterile cockpit at landing, get out the taxi diagram, talk to dispatch for gate assignment, talk to the gate agent for special requests ...

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Message 1390101 - Posted: 12 Jul 2013, 14:08:58 UTC - in response to Message 1390099.
Last modified: 12 Jul 2013, 14:11:34 UTC


I suspect inexperience of the PF to realize the auto-throttles had disengaged and inexperience of the CP to know what to check for...........

Then what, one must wonder, were they doing in the cockpit of an international flight full of passengers?
None of which, I am sure, were informed that they were on a pilot training flight.
I suspect there was also not a bright yellow sign on the side of the aircraft warning others of a 'student pilot'.

I am sure many would not have boarded the flight if they were told that their pilot had only 30-40 hours of experience in a 777 and had never attempted to land one at their destination airport.
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Message 1390126 - Posted: 12 Jul 2013, 14:57:31 UTC

I'm not a pilot but I have flown many ILS landing approaches on my Microsoft Flight Simulator. But ILS was not operative at SFO.
Tullio
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