Observation of CreditNew Impact

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kittyman
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Message 1383120 - Posted: 20 Jun 2013, 18:01:14 UTC - in response to Message 1383116.  

My RAC went fron 41K on friday to 62K today

I don't do AP and my RAC is still continuing to fall.

Mine jumped, and at the moment, appears to be resuming it's downward drift.

Must have been the AP work, as I was doing a bunch of it.
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Message 1383127 - Posted: 20 Jun 2013, 18:12:54 UTC

It must be an AP thing, the RAC of my 2 machines that crunch AP's has jumped by 20k and 10k in the last 24 hours. The one machine I have that crunches MB exclusively continues its death dive (this machine's RAC has dropped by 50% since June 01).

T.A.
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juan BFP
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Message 1383148 - Posted: 20 Jun 2013, 18:53:24 UTC

Most of my hosts does not do AP so my RAC RIP...
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Message 1383160 - Posted: 20 Jun 2013, 19:33:35 UTC

Looks like something might have been adjusted serverside.

Over the last 24 hours my average credit per V7 WU has jumped from ~80 to ~100.

This is on 2 different machines.

T.A.
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Message 1383163 - Posted: 20 Jun 2013, 19:36:18 UTC - in response to Message 1383116.  

My RAC went fron 41K on friday to 62K today

I don't do AP and my RAC is still continuing to fall.


Curious, why don't you do AP work units?
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juan BFP
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Message 1383168 - Posted: 20 Jun 2013, 19:53:41 UTC

The actual AP apps still use a large amount of CPU work, in my case i have the GPU´s free to crunch but can´t use too many CPU work because my hosts are no dedicated crunchers.
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Message 1383208 - Posted: 20 Jun 2013, 21:21:22 UTC - in response to Message 1383160.  

TA I agree I am starting to see more an more task credits approaching 100 average

Maybe the CPU's processing VLARs is starting to have an effect on CreditNew?

or a Chiropractic adjustment of our workunits credit wishbones:-)

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Message 1383222 - Posted: 20 Jun 2013, 22:29:19 UTC
Last modified: 20 Jun 2013, 22:29:33 UTC

I wonder if running multi-instances on a GPU screws up CreditNew? From what I could gleen from the description (before my eyes glazed over and started spinning like a slot machine and then fell right out) the system is supposed to track the capabilities of devices. Well, if you run 2-up on a gpu when the baseline is 1-up, maybe that borks some timing numbers somewhere?

Like this right here:

For jobs done by anonymous platform apps, the server knows the devices involved and can estimate PFC. It maintains host_app_version records for anonymous platform, and it keeps track of PFC and elapsed time statistics there. There are separate records per resource type. The record's app_version_id encodes the app ID and the resource type (-2 for CPU, -3 for NVIDIA GPU, -4 for ATI).

To be honest I don't know what any of it means. It *looks* like english but...
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Grant (SSSF)
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Message 1383285 - Posted: 21 Jun 2013, 6:50:17 UTC - in response to Message 1383163.  

My RAC went fron 41K on friday to 62K today

I don't do AP and my RAC is still continuing to fall.


Curious, why don't you do AP work units?

Going by the enquiries on the forum they take a lot more effort to set things up to process without issues.
Grant
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Message 1383373 - Posted: 21 Jun 2013, 14:12:21 UTC - in response to Message 1383285.  
Last modified: 21 Jun 2013, 14:13:01 UTC

Curious, why don't you do AP work units?

Going by the enquiries on the forum they take a lot more effort to set things up to process without issues.

Like you I was suspicious of crunching AP's but the crashing RAC of my major cruncher since June 1 forced me to do something. The effort required I think depends on whether you have an ATI or an Nvidia card(s). Setting up an ATI card seems to involve a bit more fuss. But I can't really comment as I don't have any ATI cards

For an Nvidia card there are 2 ways to do it.
1) Run the Lunatics installer or,
2) Download the AP files from Lunatics and copy the exe file and dll's into your SAH directory, copy the NV aistub file and paste it into your existing app_info file deleting the extra <app_info> entries.(My preferred method, it makes for a neater app_info file)
3) Copy the suggested default entries that suit your card from the bottom of the Readme file into into the AP**NV.txt file (can't remember the full name).
4) Allow AP's in your SAH preferences file.
5) Run BOINC.

This takes about 15 minute to get a going machine.

Some tips.
The AP app is most efficient when running at least 2 instances per card.

While allocating a full CPU per AP instance is recommended, I've found that allocating 0.5 CPU's per instance make no difference to the run times and allows for more efficient CPU usage. Change the <av_cpus> entry in the AP section of you app_info file from 0.04 to 0.5.

Make sure you have at least V310.xx drivers installed

CPU usage and run times vary with the amount of blanking in the WU so run times can vary from ~25 mins. to ~1.5 hours.

Running 2 instances, the average crunching time per unit is around 45mins for a GTX580 and around 60 minutes for a GTX470

Have fun :)

T.A.
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Grant (SSSF)
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Message 1383489 - Posted: 21 Jun 2013, 21:40:31 UTC - in response to Message 1383373.  

Curious, why don't you do AP work units?

Going by the enquiries on the forum they take a lot more effort to set things up to process without issues.

Like you I was suspicious of crunching AP's but the crashing RAC of my major cruncher since June 1 forced me to do something. The effort required I think depends on whether you have an ATI or an Nvidia card(s). Setting up an ATI card seems to involve a bit more fuss. But I can't really comment as I don't have any ATI cards

Neither do i, so I might wait to see just how far my RAC does fall, then give it a go.
If it's just a case of running Lunatics, changing the CPU value from .04 to .5 it may be worth the effort.
Grant
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kittyman
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Message 1383495 - Posted: 21 Jun 2013, 21:46:35 UTC - in response to Message 1383489.  

Curious, why don't you do AP work units?

Going by the enquiries on the forum they take a lot more effort to set things up to process without issues.

Like you I was suspicious of crunching AP's but the crashing RAC of my major cruncher since June 1 forced me to do something. The effort required I think depends on whether you have an ATI or an Nvidia card(s). Setting up an ATI card seems to involve a bit more fuss. But I can't really comment as I don't have any ATI cards

Neither do i, so I might wait to see just how far my RAC does fall, then give it a go.
If it's just a case of running Lunatics, changing the CPU value from .04 to .5 it may be worth the effort.

That should be all it takes.
If you get errors, it might require one more copy and paste operation to add some parameters to override the default settings.
Should be no muss, no fuss with NV cards.
A kitty keeps loneliness away.
More meowing, less hissing. I speak meow, do you?

Have made friends in this life.
Most were cats.
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Lionel

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Message 1383498 - Posted: 21 Jun 2013, 21:49:30 UTC - in response to Message 1382463.  

Note: Data for last 6 days added and revised running average.


I’ve had a look at the data around v7 and v6 WUs and below is a quick observational analysis of my data.

Under v6, I was roughly averaging 100 credits per Work Unit (WU).
Under v7, it seems that the average is sitting around 75-80 credits per WU.
In looking at run-times and taking the outliers out, cpu run time was around 600-660 seconds (10-11 minutes) per WU for v6, and appears to be around 800-1100 seconds (13+ to 18+ minutes) for a v7 WU. CPU time seems to have gone up by a factor of 2-3 from 50-60 seconds for v6 to 90-180 seconds for v7.

So doing a quick Back of the Envelope (10.5/15.83=0.66) shows that from a WU processing/throughput capability, I can expect to do roughly 66% of the volume of WUs that I did before (for example, if I was doing 400 WUs per day under v6, I can now expect to do around 264 WUs per day under v7).

Looking at the impact on credit gives 0.66*0.775 = 0.514 or 51.4%. In essence I can expect that daily credit for v7 will drop to circa 51% of what I was getting under v6.

I am aware of the comments around “that the system needs time to settle down” and that “it thinks all the WUs coming back at the moment are easy, hence the low credit” however, if the system continues to perform as is, then I can expect to see no change from current trajectory.

To test the assumption, I have looked at credit per day for the last 20 days. Below is the data:


    2013.05.16 – 244,130
    2013.05.17 – 220,168
    2013.05.18 – 231,098
    2013.05.19 – 226,353
    2013.05.20 – 224,723
    2013.05.21 – 210,477
    2013.05.22 - 0
    2013.05.23 – 431,485
    2013.05.24 – 229,312
    2013.05.25 – 228,767
    2013.05.26 – 239,021
    2013.05.27 – 231,271
    2013.05.28 – 231,050
    2013.05.29 – 0
    2013.05.30 – 392,635
    2013.05.31 – 209,556
    2013.06.01 – 123,072
    2013.06.02 – 94,061
    2013.06.03 – 102,333
    2013.06.04 – 99,896
    2013.06.05 - 65,653
    2013.06.06 - 112,209
    2013.06.07 - 102,538
    2013.06.08 - 110,760
    2013.06.09 - 89,757
    2013.06.10 - 96,018
    2013.06.11 - 111,653
    2013.06.12 - 90,091
    2013.06.13 - 119,848
    2013.06.14 - 99,884
    2013.06.15 - 104,561
    2013.06.16 - 110,566
    2013.06.17 - 110,603
    2013.06.18 - 102,856
    2013.06.19 - 85,268
    2013.06.20 - 140,694
    2013.06.21 - 70,247
    2013.06.22 - 109,698





The average daily credit prior to migration was 221,878. Following migration on 1st June, the average daily credit is showing as 102,376 which is circa 46.1% of the previous daily average under v6.

I suspect that many are starting to see their RAC decline, but as RAC is a lagging indicator and is currently composed of v6 and v7 numbers, the end effect is being masked. As this mask evaporates and RAC asymptotes towards the underlying v7 values, I suspect that the grumblings in the forum may get louder.

Also, the average has come up slightly as "the system" has been sending me more "enhanced" wus to do. In looking at granted credit for these wus, they appear to be getting almost twice as much credit as a v7 wu.



Comment on comments

Whilst some are focusing just on credit, the issue is not about credit as such. It’s about recognition.

There are many distributed computing projects to which people contribute resources. The manner and means in which those projects recognise individual contribution is through a system that is based on and allocates credits. Some projects choose to recognise a person’s contribution more than other projects, thus they grant a higher credit rate per contribution for that project. In short, credits are effectively an indication of a person’s contribution to a project.

In the case of "the New Credit System" implemented by Seti, recognition of personal contribution has been reduced. At present, the indication is that recognition for effort is effectively half that of what it was prior to the new recognition system being employed.


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Message 1383499 - Posted: 21 Jun 2013, 21:55:10 UTC - in response to Message 1383489.  

Curious, why don't you do AP work units?

Going by the enquiries on the forum they take a lot more effort to set things up to process without issues.

Like you I was suspicious of crunching AP's but the crashing RAC of my major cruncher since June 1 forced me to do something. The effort required I think depends on whether you have an ATI or an Nvidia card(s). Setting up an ATI card seems to involve a bit more fuss. But I can't really comment as I don't have any ATI cards

Neither do i, so I might wait to see just how far my RAC does fall, then give it a go.
If it's just a case of running Lunatics, changing the CPU value from .04 to .5 it may be worth the effort.


No doubt that we NV users have an easier go of it than ATI folks. I started running the opencl AP's with the new installer release, but stopped when I ran into errors that were apparently caused by BOINC forcibly terminating jobs prior to their normal EOJ exit. I don't know whether or not a fix for that issue has been accomplished.
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kittyman
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Message 1383503 - Posted: 21 Jun 2013, 22:09:57 UTC - in response to Message 1383499.  
Last modified: 21 Jun 2013, 22:10:15 UTC

Curious, why don't you do AP work units?

Going by the enquiries on the forum they take a lot more effort to set things up to process without issues.

Like you I was suspicious of crunching AP's but the crashing RAC of my major cruncher since June 1 forced me to do something. The effort required I think depends on whether you have an ATI or an Nvidia card(s). Setting up an ATI card seems to involve a bit more fuss. But I can't really comment as I don't have any ATI cards

Neither do i, so I might wait to see just how far my RAC does fall, then give it a go.
If it's just a case of running Lunatics, changing the CPU value from .04 to .5 it may be worth the effort.


No doubt that we NV users have an easier go of it than ATI folks. I started running the opencl AP's with the new installer release, but stopped when I ran into errors that were apparently caused by BOINC forcibly terminating jobs prior to their normal EOJ exit. I don't know whether or not a fix for that issue has been accomplished.


Did you try the advice in the last couple of posts in this thread?
It worked for me.
A kitty keeps loneliness away.
More meowing, less hissing. I speak meow, do you?

Have made friends in this life.
Most were cats.
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TBar
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Message 1383513 - Posted: 21 Jun 2013, 22:33:50 UTC - in response to Message 1383499.  

Curious, why don't you do AP work units?

Going by the enquiries on the forum they take a lot more effort to set things up to process without issues.

Like you I was suspicious of crunching AP's but the crashing RAC of my major cruncher since June 1 forced me to do something. The effort required I think depends on whether you have an ATI or an Nvidia card(s). Setting up an ATI card seems to involve a bit more fuss. But I can't really comment as I don't have any ATI cards

Neither do i, so I might wait to see just how far my RAC does fall, then give it a go.
If it's just a case of running Lunatics, changing the CPU value from .04 to .5 it may be worth the effort.


No doubt that we NV users have an easier go of it than ATI folks. I started running the opencl AP's with the new installer release, but stopped when I ran into errors that were apparently caused by BOINC forcibly terminating jobs prior to their normal EOJ exit. I don't know whether or not a fix for that issue has been accomplished.

I told you about the 'fix' for that issue back here, on page one, http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=71889&postid=1379669#1379669

It works.
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Message 1383596 - Posted: 22 Jun 2013, 6:39:03 UTC

I have noticed, in the past couple of days, that mid-range AR tasks running about 25,000 seconds validate with 105-120 credits, about what thee got under S@H v6, whereas right after v7 rollout they were getting about 80 credits.
Donald
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juan BFP
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Message 1383636 - Posted: 22 Jun 2013, 12:38:54 UTC

My RAC finaly reaches the bottom of the sea, and start to rise (very...very slowly) worst case cenario 150K, not rises to 159K was 450K before.

As you all could imagine I´m so happy about that! I love Creditnew.

But i´m still crunching SETI until the last beer!
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Message 1383733 - Posted: 22 Jun 2013, 21:05:36 UTC - in response to Message 1383636.  


Still falling here, but not as fast as it was.
Grant
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Message 1383750 - Posted: 22 Jun 2013, 21:46:54 UTC - in response to Message 1383733.  

I seem to have hit bottom now.

Not bad, from 90K down to 54K, but things seem to be slowly on the up.

Cheers.
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Message boards : Number crunching : Observation of CreditNew Impact


 
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