Lunatics Windows Installer v0.41 Release Notes


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Profile BilBg
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Message 1377605 - Posted: 6 Jun 2013, 19:53:17 UTC - in response to Message 1375982.

Fred E.:

I'm puzzled by the problem I'm having.
I get a bad app_info.xml file - just one line:

<app_info>

This was with BOINC completely shut down. Have repeated several times, with the same results. Can't read the installer's messages to see if has an error message- they fly by too fast for me.


The problem was identified and solved in dialog between Fred E. and me.

This is not caused by error in the installer.
(aimerge.cmd included in the installer uses the well known command 'find' which is supposed to be present and working on any Windows)

The cause:
It turns out that on some systems the Path environment variable is not set correctly (probably some program install/uninstall deleted it).
(find.exe used by aimerge.cmd is in \WINDOWS\system32\ and this directory need to be in Path= (which is the case on fresh installed Windows))

To check:
Start command prompt (Win+R and type in the 'Run' window: CMD)
Type (in the command prompt window):
set pa




See if somewhere in the Path= there is:
C:\WINDOWS\system32

(drive letter may be different, you see my is not C: but D:):
If you don't have this directory in the Path= some commands will not work on your system.


Fix:
Add this text to the beginning of Path environment variable (copy from here, change drive letter if needed):
;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;

To get to the window for editing:
Windows XP: Win+Pause
Windows 7/Vista: Win+Pause and at top-left click 'Advanced system settings'
... and follow the picture bellow.

In 'Edit System Variable' window press Home to go to the beginning and Ctrl+V to paste the ;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;





(I think you need to be 'Administrator' to do the above change)

- Reboot the computer
- See if the set command now shows ;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS; in the Path=

(tested on Windows XP 32-bit, you may see some difference on other systems)


P.S.
On Fred E. computer the Path was only this:
Path=C:\Program Files\NVIDIA Corporation\PhysX\Common

We fixed it to:
Path=C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;C:\Program Files\NVIDIA Corporation\PhysX\Common

... and the installer's aimerge.cmd correctly created app_info.xml
Fred E.: "The installer ran fine, no visible problems, now running BOINC with the app_info.xml it created (with usual edits for count)."



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Message 1377658 - Posted: 6 Jun 2013, 21:28:41 UTC - in response to Message 1377554.

Since optimizing with the installer, it seems I am reported errors on some AP tasks.

Have to run off to work, but could somebody have a look at my recent AP errors and see if you can offer any clues?
They have happened on at least 3 different rigs.

I'll check back in tonight.

Thanks.


I`m almost certain its a driver issue.
I see you are running the same driver on all GPU`s 304.79.
I suggest to install a newer driver at least on one host to see if that changes anything.

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Message 1377659 - Posted: 6 Jun 2013, 21:29:38 UTC

I've had 3 validation inconclusives with my ATI cards. All 3 were against Cuda cards. 2 of the Cuda card results were overflows.
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Message 1377663 - Posted: 6 Jun 2013, 21:36:46 UTC - in response to Message 1377605.

Fix:
Add this text to the beginning of Path environment variable (copy from here, change drive letter if needed):
;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;

I'm sure Richard, William and the rest of the gang are pleased to hear you figured out why the install didn't work.

However, if you are going to fix something fix it right. In this case, don't hardcode the paths like that. The correct form is:

%SystemRoot%\system32;%SystemRoot%;%SystemRoot%\System32\Wbem;

(taken from an almost vanilla installation of XP.)

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Message 1377664 - Posted: 6 Jun 2013, 21:38:09 UTC - in response to Message 1377659.

I've had 3 validation inconclusives with my ATI cards. All 3 were against Cuda cards. 2 of the Cuda card results were overflows.


That might be host dependent.
I more worry about those just missing one signal.

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Message 1377681 - Posted: 6 Jun 2013, 22:08:35 UTC - in response to Message 1377663.

Fix:
Add this text to the beginning of Path environment variable (copy from here, change drive letter if needed):
;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;

I'm sure Richard, William and the rest of the gang are pleased to hear you figured out why the install didn't work.

However, if you are going to fix something fix it right. In this case, don't hardcode the paths like that. The correct form is:

%SystemRoot%\system32;%SystemRoot%;%SystemRoot%\System32\Wbem;

(taken from an almost vanilla installation of XP.)

Yes, this looks like the correct way.

Then it is strange that on my system (Win XP) it is hardcoded (copy is from 'Edit System Variable' window, not from CMD, and I didn't edited it manually ever):

%CommonProgramFiles%\Microsoft Shared\Windows Live;D:\Program Files\AMD APP\bin\x86;D:\WINDOWS\system32;D:\WINDOWS;D:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;H:\Programs.XP\Samsung;H:\ASRAPI\BIN;D:\Program Files\Common Files\Teleca Shared;D:\Program Files\QuickTime\QTSystem\;D:\Program Files\ATI Technologies\ATI.ACE\Core-Static


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Message 1377686 - Posted: 6 Jun 2013, 22:22:26 UTC - in response to Message 1377681.

Yes, this looks like the correct way.

Then it is strange that on my system (Win XP) it is hardcoded (copy is from 'Edit System Variable' window, not from CMD, and I didn't edited it manually ever):

%CommonProgramFiles%\Microsoft Shared\Windows Live;D:\Program Files\AMD APP\bin\x86;D:\WINDOWS\system32;D:\WINDOWS;D:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;H:\Programs.XP\Samsung;H:\ASRAPI\BIN;D:\Program Files\Common Files\Teleca Shared;D:\Program Files\QuickTime\QTSystem\;D:\Program Files\ATI Technologies\ATI.ACE\Core-Static


Without any proof whatsoever I'd put the blame on some lousy installer reading the variable in its expanded form and then writing it back like that.

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Message 1377687 - Posted: 6 Jun 2013, 22:24:13 UTC - in response to Message 1377587.

This question from yesterday probably got overlooked:
One quick question: Can the NV 4200M on this laptop handle 2 units at a time?

Any thoughts?

A bit of a marginal case, I'd say.

Your computer listing here says:

NVIDIA NVS 4200M (482MB) driver: 268.83

where the Wiki comparison table for Mobility NVS Series gives us a GF119 GPU with 'up to 1024' MiB of memory and 48 shaders.

The 'GF' series GPU can certainly handle two tasks at once, but that 482 MB of memory feels a little tight. I run a 420M GPU with 1023MB of memory: that could certainly handle two at a time, but I run it with a single task, because the 48 shaders (same as yours) make it substantially slower than the venerable 9800GTs I run in desktop machines.


Running 2 at a time on my systems, and with a couple of browsers open it's using 670MB of Video RAM.


Thanks for taking a look, Richard and Grant. I'll leave it at one task.

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Message 1377872 - Posted: 7 Jun 2013, 8:08:42 UTC - in response to Message 1377664.

I've had 3 validation inconclusives with my ATI cards. All 3 were against Cuda cards. 2 of the Cuda card results were overflows.


That might be host dependent.
I more worry about those just missing one signal.

False overflows are usually flaky cards - too hot or just half dead.
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Message 1377874 - Posted: 7 Jun 2013, 8:10:01 UTC

hi / just a stupid beginer's request

i recently performed upgrade to latest setiathome version + w32 041 optimizer
after many many attempts (remove/reinstall); i can see the time to compute a wu with my gpu (650ti) simply doubled; compared to ""before;
Even when CPU's are idle; it simply takes twice than before
I tried also to update to the latest nvidia driver
i can see i m using cuda32/ x41zc ;
so all looks correct to me and i face a pretty stable situation
therefore i come with 2 questions
1 would you mind to tell me where to dig first ?
2 Is there anywhere info/bench on expected crunch time for with various gpu which coud help to figure out roughtly if on track or not
i suspect i have something wrong but miss the point

txs in advance cheers:jpp
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Message 1377894 - Posted: 7 Jun 2013, 8:38:42 UTC - in response to Message 1377874.

after many many attempts (remove/reinstall); i can see the time to compute a wu with my gpu (650ti) simply doubled; compared to ""before;

v7 processing takes much longer than with v6. Sometimes the processing time is more than doubled, others less than double.

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Message 1377905 - Posted: 7 Jun 2013, 8:51:46 UTC - in response to Message 1377686.

Yes, this looks like the correct way.

Then it is strange that on my system (Win XP) it is hardcoded (copy is from 'Edit System Variable' window, not from CMD, and I didn't edited it manually ever):

%CommonProgramFiles%\Microsoft Shared\Windows Live;D:\Program Files\AMD APP\bin\x86;D:\WINDOWS\system32;D:\WINDOWS;D:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;H:\Programs.XP\Samsung;H:\ASRAPI\BIN;D:\Program Files\Common Files\Teleca Shared;D:\Program Files\QuickTime\QTSystem\;D:\Program Files\ATI Technologies\ATI.ACE\Core-Static


Without any proof whatsoever I'd put the blame on some lousy installer reading the variable in its expanded form and then writing it back like that.

That looks plausible. On an almost vanilla Windows XP with BOINC-related additions, the path is:

PATH=C:\Program Files\NVIDIA Corporation\PhysX\Common;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;C:\CUDA\bin

So guess which installer we blame ;P

OK, I've got the message - and many, many thanks for continuing to explore this while I caught my breath after Monday. OK, now we know where the problem lies, I've got two or three possibilities for a workround - I'll let them marinade for a day or two.

There was an important update to the BOINC source code yesterday, which affects all BOINC applications (across all projects, not just us) - especially GPU apps. So it's just possible that we may have to update the installer with another full release, sooner rather than later. If so, that would be an ideal opportunity to deploy whatever solution we come up with.

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Message 1377909 - Posted: 7 Jun 2013, 8:56:02 UTC - in response to Message 1377874.

hi / just a stupid beginer's request

i recently performed upgrade to latest setiathome version + w32 041 optimizer
after many many attempts (remove/reinstall); i can see the time to compute a wu with my gpu (650ti) simply doubled; compared to ""before;
Even when CPU's are idle; it simply takes twice than before
I tried also to update to the latest nvidia driver
i can see i m using cuda32/ x41zc ;
so all looks correct to me and i face a pretty stable situation
therefore i come with 2 questions
1 would you mind to tell me where to dig first ?
2 Is there anywhere info/bench on expected crunch time for with various gpu which coud help to figure out roughtly if on track or not
i suspect i have something wrong but miss the point

txs in advance cheers:jpp


If I'm not mistaken a 650Ti is a Kepler so you want to choose the cuda 5.0 app not cuda 32. Crunch times have increased but not doubled - if you are running multiple tasks at once you should drop by at least one.

Your hosts are hidden, so I can't check individual task performance and accuracy.
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Message 1378022 - Posted: 7 Jun 2013, 13:42:18 UTC - in response to Message 1376650.

Back after some days of testing and hunting down my problems runing a complet AP-WU with the r1797-opt version.

First of all, their is no problem creating/reading/writing the corresponding *.wisdom file. I observed this with ProcessMonitor(Sysinternals) and this works fine :-)

Second step, i looked at the process itself with ProcessExplorer(Sysinternals). I discovered, AP6_win_x86_SSE_CPU_r1797.exe is splitt up into three threads on my Win XP Pro and because i run the CPU-Usage at 85% (for temperature reasons) the 'main' thread is set to 'Wait:Suspended' for a ~1 sec. every 5-6 sec.
Sometimes this seems to interfering the other threads whitch end up in a 'Wait:Suspended' state from witch they never come back and so the proccesing of the AP-WU stopps :-( .

I found tree methods to start up the stuck WU:
First suspend all Seti-WUs from processing and then start them up again. How ever, works not every time. ???

Second close Boinc competly and start again. This method forces a start of chrunching from the last checkpoint and works every time. (Thanks Sten-Arne for this)

Third is using the ProcessExplorer, locate the 'Wait:Suspended' thread and resume it. As far i can see this works every time and start up the WU at the position it stops :-).

All methods results in a correct and validated AP-WU.

My summery of this, the r1797 version don't like the option 'CPU-Usage'. I crosscecked this with a ~10 hour run on 100% and their was no hanging in sight.
I am back to the 'old' r557-opt because it runs clearly on 85% CPU-Usage and the babysitting of AP-WUs costs to much time.

Hopefully someone can get any benefit from my investigation.

__W__
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Message 1378045 - Posted: 7 Jun 2013, 14:21:06 UTC

I have a Nvidia 680 and a 570 in same system. Is it ok to install Cuda 5 option to work with both? It seems to be working ok.
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Message 1378057 - Posted: 7 Jun 2013, 14:49:54 UTC - in response to Message 1378022.

...
My summery of this, the r1797 version don't like the option 'CPU-Usage'. I crosscecked this with a ~10 hour run on 100% and their was no hanging in sight.
I am back to the 'old' r557-opt because it runs clearly on 85% CPU-Usage and the babysitting of AP-WUs costs to much time.

Hopefully someone can get any benefit from my investigation.

__W__

That's a very clear and plausible bit of analysis - and it should be easily verifiable and repeatable in testing. I'll make sure it gets back to the developer.

In the meantime, you might like to experiment with Fred's TThrottle as an alternative solution for temperature management. That uses a much more fine-grained on-off cycle then BOINC crude whole seconds at a time: it would be interesting to hear what effect this has on the wait-suspended state of the other threads.

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Message 1378058 - Posted: 7 Jun 2013, 14:50:15 UTC - in response to Message 1378045.

I have a Nvidia 680 and a 570 in same system. Is it ok to install Cuda 5 option to work with both? It seems to be working ok.

Yes.

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Message 1378077 - Posted: 7 Jun 2013, 15:16:54 UTC

There was an important update to the BOINC source code yesterday, which affects all BOINC applications (across all projects, not just us) - especially GPU apps. So it's just possible that we may have to update the installer with another full release, sooner rather than later. If so, that would be an ideal opportunity to deploy whatever solution we come up with.

Is that a caution to avoid new BOINC Betas until the picture clears up? I don't usually run their Betas, but some do.

Kudos to BilBg for finding the cause and cure for my one line app_info.xml file, and for having the patience to show me how to confirm and fix it. I had worked around it but was concerned that some others might encounter this problem. As to why my path had only the NVIDIA string, I think I will blame it on some unknown installer - likely some of the junk my grandson has installed. I spent most of yesterday cleaning out his stuff after a spyware scare, and he's getting a good lecture today. Think if it was a NVIDIA installer, you'd have a lot more people with the problem.
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