The idiocy is infuriating. Not only that of the poster himself, but also some of the commenters.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

The idiocy is infuriating. Not only that of the poster himself, but also some of the commenters.

In this day and age. WHY would you leave an unattended locamotive running with no security? IT's stupid and criminal. That bozo who boarded that engine could just as well have thrown some switches and let that monster go full power down line.
Lets not give terrorists any freebies.

---

[/quote]

Old James

The idiocy is infuriating. Not only that of the poster himself, but also some of the commenters.

In this day and age. WHY would you leave an unattended locomotive running with no security? IT's stupid and criminal. That bozo who boarded that engine could just as well have thrown some switches and let that monster go full power down line.
Lets not give terrorists any freebies.

Some locomotives have remote control from what I've read, similar to a model airplane, though the loco is full sized.

---

The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

The idiocy is infuriating. Not only that of the poster himself, but also some of the commenters.

In this day and age. WHY would you leave an unattended locamotive running with no security? IT's stupid and criminal. That bozo who boarded that engine could just as well have thrown some switches and let that monster go full power down line.
Lets not give terrorists any freebies.

Actually as was pointed out, the "reverser" was not in it's slot so without that the train won't go anywhere.

In simple terms it's a bit like having a removable gear shift on your car, the engine is running but you have no way to put it "in gear".

---

The idiocy is infuriating. Not only that of the poster himself, but also some of the commenters.

In this day and age. WHY would you leave an unattended locamotive running with no security? IT's stupid and criminal. That bozo who boarded that engine could just as well have thrown some switches and let that monster go full power down line.
Lets not give terrorists any freebies.

Actually as was pointed out, the "reverser" was not in it's slot so without that the train won't go anywhere.

In simple terms it's a bit like having a removable gear shift on your car, the engine is running but you have no way to put it "in gear".

And I ask how hard would it be for a terrorist to get one ? Geez they got flying lessons back in 01. Why not train lessons in 2015?
Remove the temptation and the ability to do so.
Why ask for trouble?

---

[/quote]

Old James

The idiocy is infuriating. Not only that of the poster himself, but also some of the commenters.

So what would be the reason to leave them running? The employees are apparently nowhere closeby, or that guy doing the video would have been caught.

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The mind is a weird and mysterious place

I hope that David will enjoy this, I did.

Amtrak usually run The Lake Shore Ltd with 2 locos, obviously not enough, 3 today.

However even that wasn't enough, had to ring the rescue service.

Amtrak 49 passing Berea OH

---

The idiocy is infuriating. Not only that of the poster himself, but also some of the commenters.

In this day and age. WHY would you leave an unattended locamotive running with no security? IT's stupid and criminal. That bozo who boarded that engine could just as well have thrown some switches and let that monster go full power down line.
Lets not give terrorists any freebies.

Actually as was pointed out, the "reverser" was not in it's slot so without that the train won't go anywhere.

In simple terms it's a bit like having a removable gear shift on your car, the engine is running but you have no way to put it "in gear".

And I ask how hard would it be for a terrorist to get one ? Geez they got flying lessons back in 01. Why not train lessons in 2015?
Remove the temptation and the ability to do so.
Why ask for trouble?

Yes, it would be incredibly easy to get a reverser, if you knew what it was and where to go. I bought one at a railroad swap meet last year; there were at least a dozen available.

---

David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

The idiocy is infuriating. Not only that of the poster himself, but also some of the commenters.

So what would be the reason to leave them running? The employees are apparently nowhere closeby, or that guy doing the video would have been caught.

Long-haul truckers leave their rigs running at truck-stops in freezing weather. Keeps the engine and transmission from freezing up.

I could speculate on several reasons to leave an unmannd loco runnig at idle, but I'll defer to David or someone else more knowledgable than I.

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Donald
Infernal Optimist / Submariner, retired

The idiocy is infuriating. Not only that of the poster himself, but also some of the commenters.

So what would be the reason to leave them running? The employees are apparently nowhere closeby, or that guy doing the video would have been caught.

Long-haul truckers leave their rigs running at truck-stops in freezing weather. Keeps the engine and transmission from freezing up.

I could speculate on several reasons to leave an unmannd loco runnig at idle, but I'll defer to David or someone else more knowledgable than I.

I'll add speculation that they can be incredibly hard to start and cold starts can be a fire hazard. They also may be pulling a Lac-Mégantic and using the air compressor to keep the service brakes applied.

However I agree, in this day and age, the knowledge to rig some kind of dead-man device and send a runaway off is too easy to obtain and the cargoes too volatile. Security needs to be posted.

---

The idiocy is infuriating. Not only that of the poster himself, but also some of the commenters.

So what would be the reason to leave them running? The employees are apparently nowhere closeby, or that guy doing the video would have been caught.

Long-haul truckers leave their rigs running at truck-stops in freezing weather. Keeps the engine and transmission from freezing up.

I could speculate on several reasons to leave an unmannd loco runnig at idle, but I'll defer to David or someone else more knowledgable than I.

I'll add speculation that they can be incredibly hard to start and cold starts can be a fire hazard. They also may be pulling a Lac-Mégantic and using the air compressor to keep the service brakes applied.

However I agree, in this day and age, the knowledge to rig some kind of dead-man device and send a runaway off is too easy to obtain and the cargoes too volatile. Security needs to be posted.

Yes, it is normal practice, at least on large railroads, to leave engines idling because they're so hard to start. For one thing, they don't have antifreeze in their cooling systems, just plain water. For that reason, if an engine stops running and the temperature of the water gets below 40F (I think), it automatically drains out. In the last 10-20 years, they have started installing systems that shut them down to save fuel, then automatically restart them when the temperature gets down to a certain level. Another reason is to keep the lube oil warm, not to mention the diesel fuel (it gets thick enough to not flow freely when it's cold). There are also add-ons similar to the APU on a jet aircraft -- a smaller engine that runs to keep the fluids warm and the batteries charged while using less fuel than the prime mover idling. These are not used widely, however.

Maintaining the batteries is also a huge pain. At the museum, many of the engines we use regularly have to be kept connected to chargers or jump started. We had an engine die out on the main line last year with not enough battery power to restart itself and they had to run another one out to pull the train back in. I also heard the story of the engine that was too stupid to die; to shut it down, you push a button that energizes a relay, which cuts off the power to the fuel pump. So someone would push the button, the fuel would stop flowing, the engine would wind down... until the auxiliary generator wasn't making enough voltage (and the batteries were too shot) to keep the relay open, the fuel pump would start again (slowly, I suppose, but enough) and the engine would come back up to idle.

So yes, it is standard practice, and always has been, to leave engines idling when not in use.

Besides the reverser handle not being present, there are various other things a crew does when tying down a train. Turning off generator switches and such. Again, not hard to learn if you are planning to do evil, but not something the average idiot off the street could figure out. I haven't learned it at the museum yet.

Also, in this case I will point out that the engines were by themselves, not coupled to a train. On the one hand, easier to get moving. On the other, less potential for disaster.

I read somewhere that the location of this video is near the interchange with a railroad that mainly serves one particular mining industry, hauling something non-hazardous. Gypsum, I think.

Yes, the crew should have locked the doors. I don't know why they didn't. I doubt they left the front door wide open, though. The guy says he already went though all four of them, so I think he left the door open before he started the camera. I bet he also turned on the bell.

[edit]
Locomotives haven't had a "dead man" for a long time. They now have an alerter. At short random intervals, it beeps. The engineer has to touch some part of the controls, then let go again, within a certain amount of time or it will put the train in emergency. Really hard, maybe impossible, to rig any kind of mechanical device to replace the conscious human the way the bad guy did with the tool box on the pedal in the 1974 "Silver Streak." But a terrorist could do it as a suicide mission, I suppose.

As for why there were no employees around, no doubt they went off duty and were picked up by a taxi. Trains don't only stop at yards with staff always working.

---

David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

As for why there were no employees around, no doubt they went off duty and were picked up by a taxi. Trains don't only stop at yards with staff always working.

I guess that's how graffiti gets done, too. ;~}

---

The mind is a weird and mysterious place

The idiocy is infuriating. Not only that of the poster himself, but also some of the commenters.

So what would be the reason to leave them running? The employees are apparently nowhere closeby, or that guy doing the video would have been caught.

Long-haul truckers leave their rigs running at truck-stops in freezing weather. Keeps the engine and transmission from freezing up.

I could speculate on several reasons to leave an unmannd loco runnig at idle, but I'll defer to David or someone else more knowledgable than I.

I'll add speculation that they can be incredibly hard to start and cold starts can be a fire hazard. They also may be pulling a Lac-Mégantic and using the air compressor to keep the service brakes applied.

However I agree, in this day and age, the knowledge to rig some kind of dead-man device and send a runaway off is too easy to obtain and the cargoes too volatile. Security needs to be posted.

Yes, it is normal practice, at least on large railroads, to leave engines idling because they're so hard to start. For one thing, they don't have antifreeze in their cooling systems, just plain water. For that reason, if an engine stops running and the temperature of the water gets below 40F (I think), it automatically drains out. In the last 10-20 years, they have started installing systems that shut them down to save fuel, then automatically restart them when the temperature gets down to a certain level. Another reason is to keep the lube oil warm, not to mention the diesel fuel (it gets thick enough to not flow freely when it's cold). There are also add-ons similar to the APU on a jet aircraft -- a smaller engine that runs to keep the fluids warm and the batteries charged while using less fuel than the prime mover idling. These are not used widely, however.

Maintaining the batteries is also a huge pain. At the museum, many of the engines we use regularly have to be kept connected to chargers or jump started. We had an engine die out on the main line last year with not enough battery power to restart itself and they had to run another one out to pull the train back in. I also heard the story of the engine that was too stupid to die; to shut it down, you push a button that energizes a relay, which cuts off the power to the fuel pump. So someone would push the button, the fuel would stop flowing, the engine would wind down... until the auxiliary generator wasn't making enough voltage (and the batteries were too shot) to keep the relay open, the fuel pump would start again (slowly, I suppose, but enough) and the engine would come back up to idle.

So yes, it is standard practice, and always has been, to leave engines idling when not in use.

Besides the reverser handle not being present, there are various other things a crew does when tying down a train. Turning off generator switches and such. Again, not hard to learn if you are planning to do evil, but not something the average idiot off the street could figure out. I haven't learned it at the museum yet.

Also, in this case I will point out that the engines were by themselves, not coupled to a train. On the one hand, easier to get moving. On the other, less potential for disaster.

I read somewhere that the location of this video is near the interchange with a railroad that mainly serves one particular mining industry, hauling something non-hazardous. Gypsum, I think.

Yes, the crew should have locked the doors. I don't know why they didn't. I doubt they left the front door wide open, though. The guy says he already went though all four of them, so I think he left the door open before he started the camera. I bet he also turned on the bell.

[edit]
Locomotives haven't had a "dead man" for a long time. They now have an alerter. At short random intervals, it beeps. The engineer has to touch some part of the controls, then let go again, within a certain amount of time or it will put the train in emergency. Really hard, maybe impossible, to rig any kind of mechanical device to replace the conscious human the way the bad guy did with the tool box on the pedal in the 1974 "Silver Streak." But a terrorist could do it as a suicide mission, I suppose.

As for why there were no employees around, no doubt they went off duty and were picked up by a taxi. Trains don't only stop at yards with staff always working.

Thank you David for pointing out that the devices abound to steal a train.

---

[/quote]

Old James

Thank you David for pointing out that the devices abound to steal a train.

Strange how different people see different things.

I took from what David said that it is particularly complicated to steal and drive a train.

However as has been pointed out you can learn anything, mostly these days on the internet, and if terrorist were planning to steal a train then I suspect they will already know all they need and the best place to steal one. A spur near a gypsum mine would probably not be ideal.

The only thing I see wrong in that video is the doors were left unlocked.

---

Thank you David for pointing out that the devices abound to steal a train.

Strange how different people see different things.

I took from what David said that it is particularly complicated to steal and drive a train.

However as has been pointed out you can learn anything, mostly these days on the internet, and if terrorist were planning to steal a train then I suspect they will already know all they need and the best place to steal one. A spur near a gypsum mine would probably not be ideal.

The only thing I see wrong in that video is the doors were left unlocked.

Not so strange. I would'nt know what that device was that David talked about if I was standing right next to it.
But lets face it we live in nasty times. If terrorist can learn the rudiments of flying two airplanes into buildings I cant see any hindrance to stealling a train.
All im asking is that people use common damn sense when leaving things unattended.

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[/quote]

Old James

All im asking is that people use common damn sense when leaving things unattended.

They won't take security seriously until after the first incident. Who knew about shoe bombs? ....

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Thank you David for pointing out that the devices abound to steal a train.

Strange how different people see different things.

I took from what David said that it is particularly complicated to steal and drive a train.

However as has been pointed out you can learn anything, mostly these days on the internet, and if terrorist were planning to steal a train then I suspect they will already know all they need and the best place to steal one. A spur near a gypsum mine would probably not be ideal.

The only thing I see wrong in that video is the doors were left unlocked.

Not so strange. I would'nt know what that device was that David talked about if I was standing right next to it.
But lets face it we live in nasty times. If terrorist can learn the rudiments of flying two airplanes into buildings I cant see any hindrance to stealling a train.
All im asking is that people use common damn sense when leaving things unattended.

I wouldn't know that device either. I think it's hidden inside the control stand. I did just learn how to defeat it and it's incredibly easy, but I won't say it here (not that it really matters if I do).

I think railroads in the US are low on terrorists' radar because we have so few passenger trains here compared to much of the rest of the world, and because the rest of the world has so few freight trains compared to us. However, even a modest explosion inside New York Penn Station (or the Hudson River tunnels leading to it) would have national and international economic repercussions rivaling the aftermath of 9/11.

Back to my original post of the video, what got me the most angry was in the comments on Youtube. Someone said "Is it okay for people to go into your house just because you left the TV on?" and someone replied "Houses are private, trains are public." It drives me nuts that people actually believe this.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

Back to my original post of the video, what got me the most angry was in the comments on Youtube. Someone said "Is it okay for people to go into your house just because you left the TV on?" and someone replied "Houses are private, trains are public." It drives me nuts that people actually believe this.

Considering how subsidized the railroads have been in the USA, I'm not sure that is really that far from the truth. ;) Assuming the person wasn't thinking about California High Speed Rail or other public train projects. I know Union Pacific isn't.

I wouldn't know what this is either. http://www.grainger.com/product/K-E-SAFETY-Locomotive-Reverser-Key-39F121

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Back to my original post of the video, what got me the most angry was in the comments on Youtube. Someone said "Is it okay for people to go into your house just because you left the TV on?" and someone replied "Houses are private, trains are public." It drives me nuts that people actually believe this.

Considering how subsidized the railroads have been in the USA, I'm not sure that is really that far from the truth. ;)

If you're referring to land grant railroads of the 1800s, there's a lot more myth than truth out there. I can go into it later if you like.

Assuming the person wasn't thinking about California High Speed Rail or other public train projects. I know Union Pacific isn't.

Even publicly funded passenger lines are still considered the private restricted-access property of whatever agency owns them.

I wouldn't know what this is either. http://www.grainger.com/product/K-E-SAFETY-Locomotive-Reverser-Key-39F121

Mine is dirty yellow and doesn't have a flashlight.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

Considering how subsidized the railroads have been in the USA, I'm not sure that is really that far from the truth. ;)

If you're referring to land grant railroads of the 1800s, there's a lot more myth than truth out there. I can go into it later if you like.

I don't know of any other industry where the IRS collects a private pension payment (Tier II RRTA). I was also thinking of the operational subsidies, permissions to cross and block public right of way (highways), other tax treatments (loopholes), and the list goes on.

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