The train thread

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Profile Donald L. Johnson
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Message 1557216 - Posted: 15 Aug 2014, 7:54:38 UTC - in response to Message 1556796.  

I'd post something in here, but I got a PM from a hater of HSR, who is not a Mod, not to post and to withdraw a post, that person is now blocked here, so I do this on FB instead, where I control the content and where I have 194 Friends...

Well that is unacceptable the only people who can control what you post are Fred and the mod team.

Take no notice of what people say, if you post something that is unacceptable the mods will soon let you know.

Remember you do NOT have to do what someone else tells you in a PM.

But by the same token, if something is posted that you find offensive, you have the right to send the offending person a PM, explaining why it is offensive, and asking that he edit the post and refrain from making similar posts in future. I would expect a reasonable adult to honor the request, and let the matter drop. Not every offensive post requires a red-X and Mod action.

Vic and I obviously disagree on the issue of the California High-Speed Rail project. It is a very contentious issue in the Central Valley, especially in farm and dairy country where the proposed routes will cut many farms in half. I am aquainted with some of the farmers, and government officials, who are parties to the lawsuits against the CHSRA. And despite the recent court rulings, there are still real questions as to whether the funding will be found, and the HSR system will actually be built or operate profitably. Being opposed to THIS High-Speed Rail project and the way it is being built does not make one a HSR hater, and should not make one subject to public ridicule in a Forum such as this.
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Message 1557310 - Posted: 15 Aug 2014, 14:02:09 UTC

Not everything in the world needs to be profitable, HSR in Japan on the Bullet Train actually has on some cars, FREE seats.

It is assumed that Shinkansens are reservation-only, but there are always three carriages with free seats. But best to make a booking in the Green Car, a euphemism for ‘First’, as even in meticulous Japan there are inadequately deodorised, snoring and litter-strewing oiks in the Standard Class cabin. But the Green Car is lovely, with seats that could be described as aircraft-style if only any aircraft had ever had anything so comfortable.

Acceleration out of the station is rapid and entirely without vibration or unwelcome intrusions of any sort. A version of pressurisation contributes to the feeling of integrity the train maintains even as you swoosh through paddy fields at nearly 300km/h.


The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's
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Message 1557382 - Posted: 15 Aug 2014, 16:46:05 UTC - in response to Message 1557216.  

Vic and I obviously disagree on the issue of the California High-Speed Rail project. It is a very contentious issue in the Central Valley, especially in farm and dairy country where the proposed routes will cut many farms in half. I am aquainted with some of the farmers, and government officials, who are parties to the lawsuits against the CHSRA. And despite the recent court rulings, there are still real questions as to whether the funding will be found, and the HSR system will actually be built or operate profitably. Being opposed to THIS High-Speed Rail project and the way it is being built does not make one a HSR hater, and should not make one subject to public ridicule in a Forum such as this.

Farms have been cut in half before, by railroads and by highways. When the CB&Q came through Naperville in the 1850s, they put in a tunnel so a farmer's cows could get from one field to the other. The people will get over it, and it's probably pretty close to impossible to find a route that won't cut somebody's property, especially one that has any practicality as a passenger rail line.

As to the commercial viability of the project, I don't pretend to know enough about the specifics of this case to say anything. I certainly hope it succeeds. I also agree with Vic that it doesn't have to be profitable to be successful. The measure of its success should also consider how many people use it instead of air or highways and the resultant reduction in pollution and money spent on airport or road construction, among other things. It should also consider new development that occurs because of its presence. That said, I still don't know if this project will meet even my criteria.

Non-high speed rail projects should also consider these factors, something which is plainly lost on some politicians (notably in Indiana, where they actually tried (not sure if it passed the full legislature) to push through a law prohibiting construction of any light rail system in the state).
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Message 1557407 - Posted: 15 Aug 2014, 17:37:39 UTC

There is a movement to put
up a high speed line between
our capital, and our southern
sister city three hours south
of us. So far there is no
money in sight for the job.....
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Message 1557453 - Posted: 15 Aug 2014, 18:32:37 UTC

Although the discussion of high speed rail has been very civilized, I will have to agree with the mod notices I've just received that discussion of it, or at least of the politics of it, should be moved to Politics if it is to continue. (I personally won't follow it there, for the sake of my blood pressure (even if this topic doesn't hurt me, I'll get sucked into others that will).)

I hope we can continue to discuss purely technical aspects of it here.

These are my wishes as thread founder.
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Message 1557473 - Posted: 15 Aug 2014, 19:08:12 UTC - in response to Message 1557453.  

Although the discussion of high speed rail has been very civilized, I will have to agree with the mod notices I've just received that discussion of it, or at least of the politics of it, should be moved to Politics if it is to continue. (I personally won't follow it there, for the sake of my blood pressure (even if this topic doesn't hurt me, I'll get sucked into others that will).)

I hope we can continue to discuss purely technical aspects of it here.

These are my wishes as thread founder.

I, too, avoid the Politics section, and for much the same reasons. Despite the good intentions of many there, political discussions so often descend into name-calling and other ad-hominem attacks. That is also why I do not have a link to my Facebook account either in my signature or in my profile. (If you really want to, you know how to find me.) I KNOW my political views differ greatly from some others here, and I do NOT want them to interfere with enjoying the company of those Setizens who frequent the Cafe'.

In my view, until we actually have rails and rolling stock running on them, almost all discussion of California High-Speed Rail is political.
Donald
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Message 1557589 - Posted: 16 Aug 2014, 0:15:02 UTC - in response to Message 1557482.  

I shall also not follow this item on HSR if it goes to Politics.

The French are certainly expanding their HSR network, LGV-Est and one of their LGV-Est holds the world speed record at 574.8 km/h (357.2 Mph). That is an incredible speed for a train. What sort of track signalling system is used for that?

I wouldn't be surprised if they did it on special orders, closed track, and maybe even a disabled or overridden signal system.

I don't know if it was the same run, but I do remember reading of a French speed record run done with a specially modified train set, and that the driver felt he could have gone faster but he was approaching a curve with a speed restriction.
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Message 1557722 - Posted: 16 Aug 2014, 7:57:42 UTC

Two answers - the signalling system on tat route at the time of the test was a development of the French in cab system, but is now ERTMS.
For the purposes of the test the other track was closed to all traffic and, as the signalling system was not fully authorized for the speeds involved over the record attempt stretch it was disabled as it would have applied the train brakes above the authorized maximum overspeed limit (probably about 360kh).
Interesting fact- the train could have gone faster, but it was running out of braking distance to the end of the permitted test route.

(It was great watching the live video and telemetry data in our office, along with some of the intra-train voice communications between the train crew and the test crew.)
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Message 1557893 - Posted: 16 Aug 2014, 17:17:33 UTC

The past several posts been highly interesting, however, I haven't seen any links regarding the CHSR signalling/train operating equipment so can't comment, but on seeing the European ones, see a highly dangerous issue...

...there is too much reliance on electronics.
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Message 1558333 - Posted: 17 Aug 2014, 19:41:00 UTC - in response to Message 1557893.  

The past several posts been highly interesting, however, I haven't seen any links regarding the CHSR signalling/train operating equipment so can't comment, but on seeing the European ones, see a highly dangerous issue...

...there is too much reliance on electronics.

I imagine the CHSR will use a system which continuously calculates and displays to the engineer (driver) the distance to the nearest obstacle (speed restriction, whatever) and when he will have to start braking to stop (or be at the proper speed) in time.

I didn't click the links, so I don't know if this is what the French system does.

I'm sure there will also be a default condition where speed is restricted if any component of the system fails.
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Message 1560718 - Posted: 22 Aug 2014, 18:04:59 UTC

So today I finally managed to get a decent picture of a fairly regular visitor to my local station. Belmond British Pullman runs luxury dining trains and one of these does a circular route from London Victoria via Shalford Surry and on the return leg passes through South Croydon.

The problem is it doesn't hang around, it is usually going at line speed which here is around 50-60 MPH so getting a decent close up pic is difficult.

Today I got one, it is nearly always pulled by Merchant Navy Class, Clan Line 35028 and today was no exception.



One thing that always struck me was just how clean the engine always looked.



Must have a dedicated team!!

Also a question I have always wanted to ask, is does any of our esteemed readers know what this is



They are space out about 10 meters apart under the platform, if you look at the bottom right of the first pic you can just see one.

They have fascinated me for years, all platforms seem to have them.

Any suggestions would be welcome.
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Message 1560770 - Posted: 22 Aug 2014, 19:19:38 UTC

Nice pictures!

(The train photo site railpictures.net would reject them because they were shot from the shady side of the train. With that kind of attitude, is it a wonder that many of us add an R after the P and a K after the C, while dropping the URE?)
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Message 1560858 - Posted: 22 Aug 2014, 21:23:53 UTC - in response to Message 1560718.  


Also a question I have always wanted to ask, is does any of our esteemed readers know what this is



They are space out about 10 meters apart under the platform, if you look at the bottom right of the first pic you can just see one.

They have fascinated me for years, all platforms seem to have them.

Any suggestions would be welcome.


They are track alignment marks, the figures give the distance to the running rail, the cant inclination of the rails, and any gauge widening applied. They are there to allow the confirmation that the track hasn't moved too far out of its right location.
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Message 1560860 - Posted: 22 Aug 2014, 21:33:18 UTC
Last modified: 22 Aug 2014, 21:37:39 UTC

They are track alignment marks, the figures give the distance to the running rail, the cant inclination of the rails, and any gauge widening applied. They are there to allow the confirmation that the track hasn't moved too far out of its right location.


I see!! So what is the slider for?

Also what do they do for the rest of the track, not in stations?
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Message 1560861 - Posted: 22 Aug 2014, 21:38:06 UTC

Its the datum point - once set it (in theory) can't be moved accidentally
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Message 1561026 - Posted: 23 Aug 2014, 9:56:34 UTC - in response to Message 1556743.  

I wonder why, as apparently USA, Canada UK and Europe share the same standard gauge 4 ft 8 1⁄2 in, and I can find no mention of the truck swap.I suspect the answer is out there somewhere.

Hi Bernie
This could have been answered in a "lost" post, but just in case, the reason is as follows...

Supposedly 4'8 1/2" was the distance between the wheels of a Roman chariot (because that's how much room was needed to fit 2 horses side by side). Other wagon builders used the same spacing, so their wagons could ride in the ruts produced by the chariots and thus give passengers and goods a more comfortable ride. After the fall of the Roman empire this distance was maintained by wagon builders as a tradition

When Stephenson built the Stockton to Darlington and Liverpool to Manchester lines, he chose a gauge of 4'8 1/2" because that was the gauge the horse drawn coal mine tramways commonly used and as the line was to be used for coal haulage it made sense for the mine wagons to be able to run on the new tracks.

As more lines were built in England, Stephenson or one of his cohorts were usually the consulting engineer and they followed the original 4' 8 1/2" gauge, which became known as the "Standard Gauge". Apart from some minor lines which were built as Narrow gauge, the only company that tried to be different was the Great Western Railway where their engineer, Isambard Kingdom Brunel (one of the world's greatest engineers) for quite valid engineering reasons, chose a gauge of 7'. However, the requirement to tranship goods and passengers when changing to a different company's tracks proved to be such a pain that the GWR converted to Standard Gauge in the middle 1800's.

As railways began to spread throughout the world, British engineers were commonly contracted to build them and brought the Standard Gauge with them. Also for countries without heavy engineering capabilities, it was cheaper to buy "ready to roll" engines and rolling stock from the British manufacturers than have them custom made.

As more and more countries built railways it just made sense to follow established practice and build to the same gauge as everyone else and Standard Gauge now makes up around 2/3rds of the worlds tracks.

The other most common gauges are 3'6", which is the "standard gauge" of Africa and 5'0" "Russian" gauge.

A bit long winded but HTH :)
T.A.
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Message 1561028 - Posted: 23 Aug 2014, 10:05:11 UTC - in response to Message 1561026.  

Oooh T.A, you're gonna get shot :-)

"If Sirius had posted that in the train thread, I would have vehemently disagreed with him. But he knows better, and I know that in this thread, it's just a joke."
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Message 1561034 - Posted: 23 Aug 2014, 11:27:22 UTC

I remember the last day of steam in our village it was sad to see them stop, going to the seaside in summer was great as a child but they made the town very black, the railway track is a cycle route now as with a lot of uk lines
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Message 1561047 - Posted: 23 Aug 2014, 12:16:07 UTC

Err thank you TA, I think, but I knew all that.

What I wanted was an answers to the question as to why the 66 series locos built in Canada for the UK would have been tested with different gauge trucks, which were then changed before shipping. As I thought Canada and the USA had the same gauge as the UK.

However it seems the same style loco was sold to other countries where the gauge was different.
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Message 1561253 - Posted: 23 Aug 2014, 21:17:00 UTC - in response to Message 1560860.  

They are track alignment marks, the figures give the distance to the running rail, the cant inclination of the rails, and any gauge widening applied. They are there to allow the confirmation that the track hasn't moved too far out of its right location.


I see!! So what is the slider for?

Also what do they do for the rest of the track, not in stations?

Second part of your question:
They use similar marks wherever there are critical bits of civil engineering (bridges, tunnels and the like), where more traditional surveying techniques don't provide the speed and accuracy of these marks
(Historically there were simple painted marks on the wall with various annotations around them, but these were not accurate, and due to them not being standardised they were subject to misinterpretation.)
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