Author 
Message 
SargeVolunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 10133 Credit: 2,075,241 RAC: 1,203

Shall we discuss? 



Logically we shouldn't. 


SargeVolunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 10133 Credit: 2,075,241 RAC: 1,203

Logically we shouldn't.
I disagree and I meant the question seriously as it came up in the last 24 hours, plus it has come up time and time again, even before there were Political and NonSETI Science fora. 



are you asking to discuss what is logic?
____________
In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope
End terrorism by building a school




Sarge Logic is a Vulcan called Spook
live long and prosper
____________




Sorry Sarge but you did leave yourself wide open for that one
____________



SargeVolunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 10133 Credit: 2,075,241 RAC: 1,203

Sorry Sarge but you did leave yourself wide open for that one
You were following the other thread.
Do not STIR in here.
Let the serious discussion begin. 



Glad you got a sence of humour I will do as you ask and be a good boy
____________




are you asking to discuss what is logic?
We either do, or we we don't :)
[edit] On serious note, logic has got us were we are. This works/this doesn't and so on.[/edit]
____________
In an alternate universe, it was a ZX81 that asked for clothes, boots and motorcycle.
Client error 418: I'm a teapot
Tropical Goldfish Fish 15: Squeaky bras 'R us
Illusions of normality sufferer




are you asking to discuss what is logic?
no xor no
____________




Watson ?
____________




C'mon guys, Sarge will get cross in a minute!
"Logic is considering various parameters, and using rational thought processes, coming to a considered conclusion". Will that do for starters?
But I'll chuck a spanner in the works  If certain scientists hadn't thought "outside the box" we wouldn't have discovered some of the breakthroughs that we have done. So secondary question  what about fuzzy logic and Chaos Theory? is plain logic always the best thing?




Logic is based on assumtions , So if somebody tells you it's logical look for the hidden assumtions
And Chris is right sarge will get cross
____________




An assumption is something taken for granted or accepted as true without proof; a supposition:
Logic deals in known facts.




Chris I will tell my friend Patrick you answer to his statement about logic being based on assumptions I said I would post it and tell him what people say
Mind you he has a hard time understanding a lot of things
____________



SargeVolunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 10133 Credit: 2,075,241 RAC: 1,203

I should not have to write a grand opening to get a ball rolling. You all know what was being discussed in recent threads and how this serves as a point to jump in a different, though related, direction. Instead, a number of times, when I have opened a thread, without writing a grand opening, people jump in with wiseguy comments. When my own thread is clearly parody, or someone else's is, this is not surprising. When the intent is clearly serious, the wiseguy comments are not appreciated. In my next post, I will introduce the impetus for this thread, which people should have known, as they read/posted in recent related threads. I thank the mods in advance for acting on the red Xs I sent last night regarding offtopic posts. 


SargeVolunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 10133 Credit: 2,075,241 RAC: 1,203

I.D., the poster, recently claimed Logic is a science.
I said I disagreed. I said if it was, point me to a recent new theorem, or experimental finding, from logic. (It will have to be about logic.)
Of course, I.D. disagreed, but did not answer my points or say anything else I could find reasonable, whether due to his posting style or understanding or whatever.
Mr. Kevvy accused I.D. of having an understanding of logic that is 2000 years (or more) old.
But I did not find Mr. Kevvy's elaboration particularly satisfactory. It was primarily him I was inviting ... as the original invitation to discuss is ... well, you know ... though through know fault of my own that I know. All parts of that other discussion are ... well, you know.
Mr. Kevvy may have been trying to be brief. He may have been trying to address the response to I.D. on I.D.'s level. I would like to know what he and others think logic is, how it compares to my own understanding, and to either educate or be educated myself, at least a bit.
There are things I posted about logic 67 year ago on these fora. I took more time then. I did a better job at making my points. (Whether I swayed anyone is another matter.)
I shall begin by saying that it is not just assumptions. Logic includes undefined terms, axioms (or postulates; i.e., unproven statements. A.K.A., the assumptions.) The number of these first two are kept small. Consistency, among other things, is required. Then we have the defined terms. From there, Logic is a TOOL for mathematics and the sciences (not a science itself as far as I can remember/seerefer to the second paragraph). The tool of logic, is to prove or disprove other statements.
Why Mr. Kevvy thinks this is separate for the experimentalists he mentioned, of classical Greece, I do not know. Perhaps they viewed it this way back then. Today, the two are most definitely NOT separate. To determine whether an experiment has produced significant results, there are specific methods, and these methods rest on logic.
With this said ... it is now Mr. Kevvy's turn or that of others who wish to join in a serious conversation. 



Logic is a thought process by which conclusions are made, based first on known provable facts and then supported by assumptions that are most likely to be true. Also logic depends on being able to rule out conclusions that would result in contradictions to known facts.
____________
Bob DeWoody
My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events. 



Sarge my friend made simular points to you , about logic being based on assumptions it sounded dare I say it Logical when he was trying to explain it to me and why I agreed to put it up in your post .He used the argument that theretical scince hasn't been proven so is made of assumptions .So maybe he's right ,he sometime seems to make cents
____________



SargeVolunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 10133 Credit: 2,075,241 RAC: 1,203

Logic is a thought process by which conclusions are made, based first on known provable facts and then supported by assumptions that are most likely to be true. Also logic depends on being able to rule out conclusions that would result in contradictions to known facts.
No, known provable facts comes after the assumptions. (Furthermore, we don't always know what facts we'll end up proving.)
I made this post "Last modified: 4 Oct 2006, 20:42:05 UTC"
What Euclid put forth as an axiomatic system, and what was accepted for several centuries, is now seen to be flawed. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, people such as David Hilbert tightened things up again. The current view is that an axiomatic system is:
1) A set of undefined terms. (This avoids circularity. Look at a dictionary, and every word they choose to include  deemed to be socially accepted as a word  is defined in terms of other words. Look up these words, and they again are defined in terms of other words. Expand the search far enough, and you'll likely come back to the word you started with.) The set of undefined terms should be kept small.
2) The set of defined terms.
3) The set of axioms. This set should also be kept small. (* I shall return to the discussion of axioms momentarily.)
4) Theorems, ifthen statements built up through reasoning/proof.
From Euclid until Hilbert, axioms were statements taken to be true without proof. These statements were viewed as "selfevident." Interesting? The current approach to axioms is that there does not need to be any selfevidence. The axioms may even be about mathematical structures for which there is no currently known way to view them in the ways we perceive the universe, so how can we talk about them being selfevident? However, the axiomatic system must be consistent. It cannot lead to two ifthen statements later on which contradict each other.
Most importantly, so long as these and perhaps a few other requirements are met, axioms are essentially taken on faith. A "group" is defined as a set where any two elements of the set can be combined by an operation. Every such combination under the operation results in another element of the set. (When I say another, this does not have to mean different.) The operation is associative and, with respect to the operation, there is a (unique) identity element and every element has a(n) (unique) inverse.
The concept of a group historically came about from recognizing similarities between the addition operation on the set of real numbers, the multiplication operation on the set of real numbers without the 0 element, and several other sets with an operation as I have described. Mathematicians abstracted the ideas, boiled it down to "these are the basics, the minimal set of things, we need to discuss something of interest." The concept was at some point agreed upon through social agreements and formalized.
Since then, we don't question the axioms. We take them on faith and simply consider what things we can show as a consequence of what we have set forth. 

