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Message 1336388 - Posted: 9 Feb 2013, 22:25:32 UTC - in response to Message 1336382.

Well folks, we are getting quite a way away from the thread title which is Raccoon Update XVI - All Are Welcome In the Critter Cafe.

Perhaps we should discuss whether sexual orientation or religion should be part of scouting or guiding in the politics thread?


I have always maintained that nothing is "off topic" in the Critter Cafe, however if participants and/or silent readers feel this section of the thread is better moved to Politics, then I certainly would not have a problem with a moderator moving things.

I do feel the discussion has been largely pleasant and civil so far. The Cafe is supposed to be a place where you might discuss things over a cup of coffee. Sometimes that coffee break might include a discussion of current events, right? If things start getting out of hand, then a move to Politics would be in order, but I think things are ok right here for now...

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Message 1336390 - Posted: 9 Feb 2013, 22:26:27 UTC

Oh Bernie! I just saw your post. Ok. I will red-x things and ask a moderator to cut and paste this over in Politics.

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Message 1336392 - Posted: 9 Feb 2013, 22:28:56 UTC

No don't do that, I just feel the Critter Cafe thread should be warm and cuddly, like a critter. Whilst I know nothing is off topic, I just like to feel more relaxed here, I saw a comment that made me see red and reacted!! Don't mind me!!
____________


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Message 1336397 - Posted: 9 Feb 2013, 22:33:18 UTC - in response to Message 1336393.

Oh Bernie! I just saw your post. Ok. I will red-x things and ask a moderator to cut and paste this over in Politics.

Why? Discussion of gay related issues in not PG13?

That is most certainly not the issue in my view! People come to the Critter Cafe to relax. While I find an occasional discussion of current events to be relaxing, not all readers feel that way.

So over to Politics we go! It is the polite thing to do.

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Message 1336410 - Posted: 9 Feb 2013, 22:50:00 UTC
Last modified: 9 Feb 2013, 23:32:38 UTC

Thread now open.
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Message 1336441 - Posted: 10 Feb 2013, 0:00:52 UTC

Thank you, Zapped Sparky, for moving all of our posts from the Critter Cafe to this new locale.

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Message 1336512 - Posted: 10 Feb 2013, 5:13:29 UTC - in response to Message 1336391.


There have been no personal attacks. Just interchange of thoughts that may not conicide, but I have no problems with that. Hope some do not find my views too troubling to deal with.

I don't know about that, you've been pretty offensive about gays in this thread as far as i can see. Going as far as to indicate that being gay implies a lack of morals.

However much you might insist you are not a homophobe, your opinions certainly are classic homophobia.

I do take comfort from psychological studies that show a clear link between homophobia and supressed homosexuality.

You are simply in denial Mark, which i also understand. Afterall, you have expressed time and time again your views on how men should treat women. I am quite sure that your fear being treated that way by men, and i understand that too.

Mark, there are some very nice men out there, i am sure you can find one that will show you the respect you deserve.
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Message 1336521 - Posted: 10 Feb 2013, 6:17:16 UTC

Oh Ms. Esme!!! You are priceless, you are!!!

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Message 1336606 - Posted: 10 Feb 2013, 12:10:30 UTC - in response to Message 1336512.
Last modified: 10 Feb 2013, 12:11:07 UTC

Es, you tread a very fine line.
Nothing Mark has said in this thread could be inferred as being offensive to anyone, straight or gay, unless they have the most paranoid of dispositions.

Your attitude reeks of the same Ultra Political Correctness that led to Fairy Penguins having their name changed to "Little Penguins" because "somebody might be offended by it". They had been known as Fairy Penguins for hundreds of years. Everyone I know in the LGBT community, and as I work in the entertainment industry I know quite a few, thought this was a total w*nk.

Obviously you are trying to fire Mark up, but this was a low, underhanded, way of doing it. "Classic" homophobia is when people go around "Gay Bashing". Saying you do not agree with the gay lifestyle is not homophobia. It's like saying Gay people are "heterophobes" because they don't agree with the "straight" lifestyle.

I really despise people that play an "-obe" or "-ist" card to close a debate. To me it shows they have no real points worth making. Remember, some of the generalised comments you have made about men on these boards leave you open to very similar accusations of unhealthy bias.

I honestly thought a woman of your intellect was capable of much better.

T.A.

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Message 1336669 - Posted: 10 Feb 2013, 16:26:03 UTC - in response to Message 1336606.


ho·mo·pho·bia
noun \ˌhō-mə-ˈfō-bē-ə\







Definition of HOMOPHOBIA


: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
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Message 1336708 - Posted: 10 Feb 2013, 17:58:04 UTC - in response to Message 1336606.

Es, you tread a very fine line.
Nothing Mark has said in this thread could be inferred as being offensive to anyone, straight or gay, unless they have the most paranoid of dispositions.


I disagree TA.
Much of what Mark said is offensive. He's blamed the decline in our culture as a result of society's move toward acceptance.
He's also quite clearly against allowing gay kids to enjoy activities the rest of us enjoyed as youngsters.
Mark wants to return to a time where no one varied from the cookie cutter images and it's not acceptable.

Society and culture are changing msattler, so get used to it or get out of the way.

____________
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Message 1336711 - Posted: 10 Feb 2013, 18:03:38 UTC - in response to Message 1336606.

Es, you tread a very fine line.
Nothing Mark has said in this thread could be inferred as being offensive to anyone, straight or gay, unless they have the most paranoid of dispositions.

One of the worst comments seems to have been edited or removed. Possibly because it was racist as well. However there is still enough there for anyone except the wilfully blind to see where Mark is coming from. Comments such as "The queer scouts of America" are pretty offensive and derogatory. Or how about where he moans that the scouts used to stand for morals? Are we happy to accept that allowing gays in makes it less moral? Really? You don't think that's offensive?

Your attitude reeks of the same Ultra Political Correctness

that term was coined by the right wing as a pejorative term. Please don't use it with me if you wish to be taken seriously.
that led to Fairy Penguins having their name changed to "Little Penguins" because "somebody might be offended by it". They had been known as Fairy Penguins for hundreds of years. Everyone I know in the LGBT community, and as I work in the entertainment industry I know quite a few, thought this was a total w*nk.

You cite one example as if that means the whole concept of changing language to reframe how we view things is bunk. If it is such a stupid idea why was The Ministry of War changed to Ministry of Defence? One example of someone missing the point doesn't mean that we should not watch our words and be aware how prejudice gets embedded in our language.

Obviously you are trying to fire Mark up, but this was a low, underhanded, way of doing it. "Classic" homophobia is when people go around "Gay Bashing". Saying you do not agree with the gay lifestyle is not homophobia. It's like saying Gay people are "heterophobes" because they don't agree with the "straight" lifestyle.

Why would anyone even have an opinion on something that doesn't effect them? I am quite sure the gay 'lifestyle' (whatever that even means) would suit me. I'm not however going to start demanding that people can't live like that. Quite frankly its none of my business, and its none of the Scouts business.

I really despise people that play an "-obe" or "-ist" card to close a debate. To me it shows they have no real points worth making. Remember, some of the generalised comments you have made about men on these boards leave you open to very similar accusations of unhealthy bias.

I despise homophobes and people who appease them. Please go ahead and bring up any post I made using derogatory terms about all men in general, labelling them all immoral and using derogatory terms about them.

I honestly thought a woman of your intellect was capable of much better.

T.A.

What on Earth does my gender have to do with my intelligence?
Interesting choice of language there, "capable of much better" as if you have set yourself into a position to judge my inteligence, and somehow we are to respect your judgement by virtue of...what? Your age? Your education? The only clue in your sentence is the one word that sets any difference between us. Language is very important, it gives away so much.
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Message 1336791 - Posted: 10 Feb 2013, 19:51:03 UTC - in response to Message 1336711.

Es, you tread a very fine line.
Nothing Mark has said in this thread could be inferred as being offensive to anyone, straight or gay, unless they have the most paranoid of dispositions.

One of the worst comments seems to have been edited or removed. Possibly because it was racist as well. However there is still enough there for anyone except the wilfully blind to see where Mark is coming from. Comments such as "The queer scouts of America" are pretty offensive and derogatory. Or how about where he moans that the scouts used to stand for morals? Are we happy to accept that allowing gays in makes it less moral? Really? You don't think that's offensive?

Your attitude reeks of the same Ultra Political Correctness

that term was coined by the right wing as a pejorative term. Please don't use it with me if you wish to be taken seriously.
that led to Fairy Penguins having their name changed to "Little Penguins" because "somebody might be offended by it". They had been known as Fairy Penguins for hundreds of years. Everyone I know in the LGBT community, and as I work in the entertainment industry I know quite a few, thought this was a total w*nk.

You cite one example as if that means the whole concept of changing language to reframe how we view things is bunk. If it is such a stupid idea why was The Ministry of War changed to Ministry of Defence? One example of someone missing the point doesn't mean that we should not watch our words and be aware how prejudice gets embedded in our language.

Obviously you are trying to fire Mark up, but this was a low, underhanded, way of doing it. "Classic" homophobia is when people go around "Gay Bashing". Saying you do not agree with the gay lifestyle is not homophobia. It's like saying Gay people are "heterophobes" because they don't agree with the "straight" lifestyle.

Why would anyone even have an opinion on something that doesn't effect them? I am quite sure the gay 'lifestyle' (whatever that even means) would suit me. I'm not however going to start demanding that people can't live like that. Quite frankly its none of my business, and its none of the Scouts business.

I really despise people that play an "-obe" or "-ist" card to close a debate. To me it shows they have no real points worth making. Remember, some of the generalised comments you have made about men on these boards leave you open to very similar accusations of unhealthy bias.

I despise homophobes and people who appease them. Please go ahead and bring up any post I made using derogatory terms about all men in general, labelling them all immoral and using derogatory terms about them.

I honestly thought a woman of your intellect was capable of much better.

T.A.

What on Earth does my gender have to do with my intelligence?
Interesting choice of language there, "capable of much better" as if you have set yourself into a position to judge my inteligence, and somehow we are to respect your judgement by virtue of...what? Your age? Your education? The only clue in your sentence is the one word that sets any difference between us. Language is very important, it gives away so much.

Thank you Es. I am not just going to repeat what you said.
____________


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Message 1336936 - Posted: 11 Feb 2013, 3:43:34 UTC - in response to Message 1336711.
Last modified: 11 Feb 2013, 4:19:34 UTC

One of the worst comments seems to have been edited or removed. Possibly because it was racist as well. However there is still enough there for anyone except the wilfully blind to see where Mark is coming from. Comments such as "The queer scouts of America" are pretty offensive and derogatory. Or how about where he moans that the scouts used to stand for morals? Are we happy to accept that allowing gays in makes it less moral? Really? You don't think that's offensive?

Poor taste, yes. Offensive ? Maybe if the definition of the word is stretched to the extreme, but it's definitely not worth the strength of the reaction.

that term was coined by the right wing as a pejorative term. Please don't use it with me if you wish to be taken seriously.
You cite one example as if that means the whole concept of changing language to reframe how we view things is bunk. If it is such a stupid idea why was The Ministry of War changed to Ministry of Defence? One example of someone missing the point doesn't mean that we should not watch our words and be aware how prejudice gets embedded in our language.

I can think of no other term to describe the current "New Speak" where words ending in "-obe" and "-ist" are used purely as means to silence debate and discussion. I really hate bringing the "right wing/left wing" BS into a discussion like this because some attitudes cross political borders. IMO the term was coined to describe the use of certain words to silence debate. i.e "If you disagree with me, you are an *obe/*ist". Once this card is played, the debate is dead as the person being accused is diverted into proving they are not. This is often to the detriment of the group under discussion as a true resolution to their problems becomes impossible

A typical example of this are the policies of the Australian Government regarding our Indigenous People. To be quite frank they are an abomination that do nothing to improve the indigenous position and are Maternalistic in the extreme. Yet any time a discussion on them is opened it is shut down by someone playing the "Racist" card. We even had the ridiculous situation where a very activist Indigenous politician was accused of "Racism" for criticising the attitude of some other indigenous people.

Why would anyone even have an opinion on something that doesn't effect them? I am quite sure the gay 'lifestyle' (whatever that even means) would suit me. I'm not however going to start demanding that people can't live like that. Quite frankly its none of my business, and its none of the Scouts business.

If the situation doesn't effect you and is none of your business, why do you get so fired up about it ?

I honestly thought a woman of your intellect was capable of much better.

What on Earth does my gender have to do with my intelligence?
Interesting choice of language there, "capable of much better" as if you have set yourself into a position to judge my inteligence, and somehow we are to respect your judgement by virtue of...what? Your age? Your education? The only clue in your sentence is the one word that sets any difference between us. Language is very important, it gives away so much.

And your reaction is also very interesting. If you were male and I had used the the term "a man of your intellect" not an eyebrow would have been raised !
Point 1) You are a woman
Point 2) From the quality of your posts to these boards you are obviously an intelligent person. (A subjective judgement certainly, but complementary to you in a non gender specific way)
Point 3) Read that line again. The phrase "capable of much better" refers to the quality of your reply to Mark's post (which was a cheap shot and meant to inflame, not critique his statements). It in no way refers to your intelligence.

You are so right, "Language is very important, it gives away so much". ;)

T.A.

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Message 1336961 - Posted: 11 Feb 2013, 5:45:14 UTC - in response to Message 1336936.
Last modified: 11 Feb 2013, 5:46:27 UTC

Why would anyone even have an opinion on something that doesn't effect them? I am quite sure the gay 'lifestyle' (whatever that even means) would suit me. I'm not however going to start demanding that people can't live like that. Quite frankly its none of my business, and its none of the Scouts business.

If the situation doesn't effect you and is none of your business, why do you get so fired up about it ?


First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me
Martin-Niemöller


Said much better than I. Do not try to silence those not directly involved in the injustice from speaking out against it.
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Message 1336964 - Posted: 11 Feb 2013, 5:51:09 UTC - in response to Message 1336962.



Society and culture are changing msattler, so get used to it or get out of the way.

And it is people like yourself and their attitude that 'anything goes' that is leading to the decline of society in general.
When one simply accepts that 'change is inevitable' and refuses to stand up for what one believes in, all else is lost.

You don't believe that there is a place for morals? Standards? Ideals? Lines that should not be crossed?

Even in this forum, I get banned if I post words that some believe should not be used.

So, where do you want to draw that line, exactly? Or do you wish to erase it entirely?

I don't hate gays. I might have a problem with my tax dollars being spent to support a way of life that I and my Christian upbringing believe to be immoral, but I don't hate them.

Some beliefs end up on the wrong side of history - including bigotry against other skin colors and females. Those that promoted this bigotry in the past end up looking like either fools or vilians. It has not been settled about homosexuals, but I suspect that the result will be the same.

BTW, all of the arguments you make about gays were made about blacks in the past and were proven false over time.


____________


BOINC WIKI

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