Something like Moore's law will apply here. The smart guys will prevail.

---

Something like Moore's law will apply here. The smart guys will prevail.

I suspect there won't be a Moore's law for battery tech. Chips had the advantage that their density is 2D. Battery density is 1D, it is controlled by how close the plates can be spaced and that is just thickness. Also we are running into a problem of damage due to the distance between the plates. As it gets smaller, there is less margin for error or damage to the point a good rap, say a bad pothole, can cause the plates to short. Once they short they weld and the entire battery discharges in a few seconds, resulting in a fire or explosion. I hope some inventor dreams a way past this.

---

Something like Moore's law will apply here. The smart guys will prevail.

And I hate to run my AC for the house in the summer because my electric bill goes up a lot. Now you want me to buy a new high priced battery car and charge the damn thing everyday to?

If you cant make it cheap and make it go far. It aint gonna fly. The masses are not rich. Hell most of us are barley makeing it.

---

[/quote]

Old James

Drayson Racing electric car sets new world speed record

To quote my late father's second wife "Whats the priss"

I will buy an plug-in electric car when I need to buy another vehicle. It must have a gas or Diesel motor as well though and it must meet my stringent set of parameters which I have posted before several times. It won't cut emissions unless the electricity comes from nuclear, solar or wind which I don't think will ever happen in my lifetime if ever in this millenium.

Something like Moore's law will apply here. The smart guys will prevail.

I suspect there won't be a Moore's law for battery tech.

I suspect there is more of an irregular pattern of a leap in performance for one or more parameters followed by steady incremental improvement until whatever new material combinations or new structures are developed. For example, note the potential x10 capacity improvement for the sulfur based battery tech over the existing best.

Chips had the advantage that their density is 2D. Battery density is 1D, it is controlled by how close the plates can be spaced and that is just thickness. Also we are running into a problem of damage due to the distance between the plates. As it gets smaller, there is less margin for error or damage to the point a good rap, say a bad pothole, can cause the plates to short.

Sounds like you're lost in the world of old-style capacitors of many years ago. Times and technology moves on apace... Try thinking 3d + materials instead?...

Once they short they weld and the entire battery discharges in a few seconds, resulting in a fire or explosion. I hope some inventor dreams a way past this.

Again, that is the case for old-style tech where you could also get failure from crystal growth during charging bridging between the battery electrodes to cause a short circuit...

Since those old tech, we now have various membranes to allow for a very robust construction. There's 'nano-technology' tech to vastly increase the active surface area into 3D structures... And lots more 'trickery'...

And newly on the scene are graphene sheets...

There are various techniques to make batteries 'self-healing', as is also available for some capacitor types. The design compromise for the now infamous batteries on the Dreamliner aircraft obviously do not allow for that... (My suspicions are for problematic cabling/design OUTSIDE of the battery compartment...)

Also note that care must always be taken when dealing with a high available density of stored energy. Dangerously sensitive nitroglycerine or the less fragile TNT anyone?! Similarly, batteries can be designed to be 'safe' depending upon whatever design constraints you might be working to...


Where there is an honest will, there is a good way...

All on our only planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Something like Moore's law will apply here. The smart guys will prevail.

I suspect there won't be a Moore's law for battery tech.

I suspect there is more of an irregular pattern of a leap in performance for one or more parameters followed by steady incremental improvement until whatever new material combinations or new structures are developed. For example, note the potential x10 capacity improvement for the sulfur based battery tech over the existing best.

Apparently you are not familiar with Moore's law. It applies to silicon wafers. A different tech, is a different tech.

Chips had the advantage that their density is 2D. Battery density is 1D, it is controlled by how close the plates can be spaced and that is just thickness. Also we are running into a problem of damage due to the distance between the plates. As it gets smaller, there is less margin for error or damage to the point a good rap, say a bad pothole, can cause the plates to short.

Sounds like you're lost in the world of old-style capacitors of many years ago. Times and technology moves on apace... Try thinking 3d + materials instead?...

Sounds like you don't know squat. All batteries share three things. An anode, a cathode and an electrolyte. If they don't have that they aren't a battery. They may have two electrolytes and an ionic bridge. That however describes a battery. As to your 3D assertion, best you apply some simple gemotery to your thought process. If you note this is a linear description. Start at the anode, get to the cathode. 1D.

As to Moore's law, it says that the number of transistors on a chip doubles every two years. A chip is a 2D item, the face of a silicon wafer.

See the difference?

If not, a restatement of Moore's law would be the size of an individual transistor reduces by the square root of 2 every two years. Note the "square root" That is the difference between area a 2D measure and length a 1D measure.

As to 3D you can get as creative as you wish in folding up the anode and cathode but the only way to get more in a given 3D volume is to reduce the distance between them and that is 1D. Simple plane geometry offers that proof.

Once they short they weld and the entire battery discharges in a few seconds, resulting in a fire or explosion. I hope some inventor dreams a way past this.

Again, that is the case for old-style tech where you could also get failure from crystal growth during charging bridging between the battery electrodes to cause a short circuit...

Since those old tech, we now have various membranes to allow for a very robust construction. There's 'nano-technology' tech to vastly increase the active surface area into 3D structures... And lots more 'trickery'...

And these membranes are very thin. Deformation from a blow easily ruptures them. If you have to put the battery in a sea of packing peanuts it isn't very small any more.

And newly on the scene are graphene sheets...

http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/semiconductors/nanotechnology/faster-and-cheaper-process-for-graphene-in-liion-batteries wrote:

Despite all the new enthusiasm for conversion-reaction batteries, Singh concedes tungsten disulfide may not work for some potential applications of Li-ion batteries based on conversion reactions.

"We also realize that tungsten disulfide is a heavy compound compared to state-of-the-art graphite used in current lithium-ion batteries," Singh said in the release. "Therefore tungsten disulfide may not be an ideal electrode material for portable batteries."

There are various techniques to make batteries 'self-healing', as is also available for some capacitor types. The design compromise for the now infamous batteries on the Dreamliner aircraft obviously do not allow for that... (My suspicions are for problematic cabling/design OUTSIDE of the battery compartment...)

Got a CV as an engineer and you haven't even made an inspection ... but you know what happened.

Personally I would expect a known failure mode, impact damage, for lithium-ion batteries along with a grain of salt knowing how A&P's work. I doubt cause will ever be determinable as the evidence likely was destroyed in the resulting rapid energy release.

Also note that care must always be taken when dealing with a high available density of stored energy. Dangerously sensitive nitroglycerine or the less fragile TNT anyone?! Similarly, batteries can be designed to be 'safe' depending upon whatever design constraints you might be working to...


Where there is an honest will, there is a good way...

All on our only planet,
Martin

---

IIRC there is a chip that theoretically uses 3d for additional computation speed. The example give was basically taking 2 chips and placing them on top of each other where the parts that touch become correlate to each other making the chip(s) that much more efifcient. The problem as always is cooling and a traditional HSF wont suffice.

---

In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

... Sounds like you don't know squat. All batteries ... 1D...

Yawn... Back to your 1d noise and trolling...

Please simply note that structures and chemistry are 3d + time.

As a teaser: Want to guess how you can make your 1 square inch plate have a surface area of a million square inches or more?... Now charge up that.

... If you have to put the battery in a sea of packing peanuts it isn't very small any more.

That is far from needed. Even less so for the all-solid batteries being developed.

And newly on the scene are graphene sheets...

http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/semiconductors/nanotechnology/faster-and-cheaper-process-for-graphene-in-liion-batteries wrote:

Yawn... Another trick of your negative selective quoting. You've even admitted that you don't bother reading articles so I guess this is all just a stupid word game for you...

There are various techniques to make batteries 'self-healing', as is also available for some capacitor types. The design compromise for the now infamous batteries on the Dreamliner aircraft obviously do not allow for that... (My suspicions are for problematic cabling/design OUTSIDE of the battery compartment...)

Got a CV as an engineer and you haven't even made an inspection ... but you know what happened.

Personally I would expect a known failure mode, impact damage, for lithium-ion batteries along with a grain of salt knowing how A&P's work. I doubt cause will ever be determinable as the evidence likely was destroyed in the resulting rapid energy release.

Usual glib superficial drivel from you then... Looks like you really do never bother to look anything up. I guess you know it all already in your out-of-date jaundiced way.

Please read these two examples:

System Design: Fixing the 787’s Batteries

Is Tesla's Battery Running Out of Charge?

and impress us with your deep appreciation of improving battery tech.

You should be surprised at what is being done and how quickly now that there is seen to be a commercial need for such things rather than suffering the usual ad-hoc impoverished funded academic pursuit of improvement...



Where there is an honest will, there is a good way...

All on our only planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... Sounds like you don't know squat. All batteries ... 1D...

Yawn... Back to your 1d noise and trolling...

Please simply note that structures and chemistry are 3d + time.

As a teaser: Want to guess how you can make your 1 square inch plate have a surface area of a million square inches or more?... Now charge up that.

Change its shape, but you didn't change its density, so you didn't change the volume it occupies. Think Archimedes and a bathtub.

---

... Sounds like you don't know squat. All batteries ... 1D...

Yawn... Back to your 1d noise and trolling...

Please simply note that structures and chemistry are 3d + time.

As a teaser: Want to guess how you can make your 1 square inch plate have a surface area of a million square inches or more?... Now charge up that.

Change its shape, but you didn't change its density, so you didn't change the volume it occupies. Think ...

You really do look to play superficial games with words with no deeper understanding. String a few random scientific sounding words together to then glow in word ignorance?...

I'll give you another simple clue: fractals... I hope the Wikipedia words are not too scary to read-and-understand.

Sorry, this is your last chance to show that your words mean anything other than useless trolling for the sake of trolling.


Meanwhile, just as the earth turns, battery tech and green tech quickly evolve and improve. And there are many ways to work better without the corruption of dirty fossil fuels pollution.


Where there is an honest will, there is a good way...

All on our only planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... Sounds like you don't know squat. All batteries ... 1D...

Yawn... Back to your 1d noise and trolling...

Please simply note that structures and chemistry are 3d + time.

As a teaser: Want to guess how you can make your 1 square inch plate have a surface area of a million square inches or more?... Now charge up that.

Change its shape, but you didn't change its density, so you didn't change the volume it occupies. Think ...

You really do look to play superficial games with words with no deeper understanding. String a few random scientific sounding words together to then glow in word ignorance?...

I'll give you another simple clue: fractals... I hope the Wikipedia words are not too scary to read-and-understand.

I can only think of three things:
1 You have no clue as to what Moore's actually law says. (Hint it is quite narrow compared to what popular media want it to say, it only talks about area.)
2 You have zero understanding of geometry of surfaces and volumes. (Hint Archimedes knew it better.)
3 You intentionally wish to deceive.

---

... Sounds like you don't know squat. All batteries ... 1D...

Yawn... Back to your 1d noise and trolling...

I'll give you another simple clue: fractals... I hope the Wikipedia words are not too scary to read-and-understand.

I can only think of three things...

3 You intentionally wish to deceive.

Looks like "3" is your game...


To spoon feed your lazy ignorance:

Take a 10mm square flat surface, and assuming that surface is nicely smooth you have a surface area of 10mm x 10mm = 100mm^2

Now pattern that surface with a 1mm checkerboard pattern where the black squares say are 5mm high square columns. That now gives you the same surface area as before of 100mm^2 for the squares but additionally you have 5x 5x 4x 5mm x 1mm = 500mm^2 from the sides of the columns to give you a total surface area of 600mm^2


Battery capacity is directly proportional to surface area for some types of battery.


Going "micro" patterned increases that pattern effect yet further... Keeping to the same aspect ratio and using a 1um grid and a 5um high surface pattern, gives you the same surface area of:

( 100mm^2 ) + ( 5000x 5000x 4x 5um x 1um = 500mm^2 ) = 600mm^2 for that 10mm square plate. However, a further trick is that at those smaller dimensions, you can easily increase the aspect ratio that is patterned to for example 10um x 1um columns to double your surface area to 1100mm^2 for example.

So, lot's more potential there for just 2d. Going '3d' you can get even more drastic increase in active area by using porous electrodes...

There's lots of development possible yet... And also there are better ways other than only 'batteries'...


Where there is an honest will, there is a way...

All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

A leading light for our planet to help avoid the destruction of our Garden of Eden?


Apple's new data center to be solar powered, 100% green

PR stunt or canny business move? Ask Barack Obama...

... The new photovoltaic power source, to be built in partnership with NV Energy, will pump 43.5 million kilowatt hours per year into the grid that will power the data center, Reuters reports.

That hefty jolt o' juice is comparable to that produced by the 42 million kilowatt hours per year generated by the 100-acre, 20-megawatt solar farm that powers Apple's mega–data center in Maiden, North Carolina. That array, however, is soon to be joined by a second 20-megawatt photovoltaic installation that Apple plans to fire up later this year.

The Maiden data center's solar power is joined by a biogas fuel-cell facility that produces an additional 83 million killowatt hours per year. ...

... The combination of photovoltaic and geothermal power will allow the Reno data center to be powered completely by renewable sources...

... Currently, Apple says, 75 per cent of their corporate facilities are powered by renewable sources, and "We won't stop working until we achieve 100 percent throughout Apple."

Good PR, to be sure, but also good long-term business sense as we enter a period during which – should climate champions and President Obama get their way – increased regulation and oversight of non-renewable energy sources may very well drive up the cost of electricity from CO2-spewing power plants. ...


A bold and welcome early move.

All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... Sounds like you don't know squat. All batteries ... 1D...

Yawn... Back to your 1d noise and trolling...

I'll give you another simple clue: fractals... I hope the Wikipedia words are not too scary to read-and-understand.

I can only think of three things...

3 You intentionally wish to deceive.

Looks like "3" is your game...


To spoon feed your lazy ignorance:

Take a 10mm square flat surface

I see your basic ignorance, a battery is not flat. It occupies 3D space. So when you do your transformations what happens to the volume not just of the material in the electrode but the case that surrounds it.

The second part of you ignorance is treating a battery as a capacitor. While a capacitors storage is directly related to surface area, that is not the only factor in a battery. A battery stores energy in chemical change. It has to have chemical to change. How much chemical is in a mathematical plane? Zero! A mathematical plane is too thin for a single atom to exist in. So your hypothetical battery can not work.

You also have several times changed your premise when discussing this. I'll remind you, you started with a given mass of material. You did not understand what you said. As I said you can change the shape of this mass any way you see fit, but you haven't changed how much of it you have or its volume. Depending on how good you are at folding it up, after you change its shape you may have changed the volume of the case you need to enclose it! Which is the point I started with and you fail to understand. Moore's law is about size.

---

I see your basic ignorance...

And we all see your word games of trolling and changing the game.

Game over.

The x10 performance of the sulphur-based batteries being developed is already a fact. Other developments continue. Please play troll elsewhere.


We need solutions, not the hot air of trolls and corrupt politicians.

All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

A little political tinkering to humour along industry:


MEPs' move to fix EU carbon market praised

The UK government and green groups have welcomed a European Parliament move to rescue the EU's carbon trading scheme, but say deeper reforms are needed...

... The idea is to reduce the current oversupply of allowances, thereby pushing up the carbon price.

Carbon trading gives heavy industry an incentive to cut CO2 emissions, which have been linked to global warming.

The parliament voted on Wednesday to let the Commission delay the auctioning of up to 900 million CO2 allowances.

The plan still has to be agreed with EU governments to take effect, and Poland - heavily dependent on carbon-rich coal - is among several countries that oppose it. ...

... The Greens want the Commission to permanently withdraw at least 1.4 billion allowances this year. ...


All too little, too slow, too late?

All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

I see your basic ignorance...

And we all see your word games of trolling and changing the game.

If you don't know what you post means, stay out of an engineering thread where specificity is required, go play your fanboy games in your denial thread.

There is work to be done and your noise is preventing it from being done.

---

A little political tinkering to humour along industry:


MEPs' move to fix EU carbon market praised

The UK government and green groups have welcomed a European Parliament move to rescue the EU's carbon trading scheme, but say deeper reforms are needed...

... The Greens want the Commission to permanently withdraw at least 1.4 billion allowances this year. ...

Not as far as is wanted, but such is the game of politics:


Europe: OK, we'll 'backload' carbon emissions - but we'd better not lose big biz

The European Parliament has voted through proposed temporary reforms to the EU's emissions trading system (EU ETS)...

... The latest proposed reforms will prevent the European Commission from backloading more than the 900 million allowances and from carrying out the backloading exercise more than once. The backloading will also be subject to an impact assessment showing that there is no "significant risk" of businesses relocating outside the EU if the change goes ahead. ...

... the EU carbon market would need more than "one-off measures" to address an "incredibly low carbon price, which currently sits at a level around 70 per cent lower than it was three years ago".

"Many have suggested that what is needed is proper structural change and in particular the removal of a volume of European Union Allowances permanently from the market in light of what is understood to be a significant surplus in allowances,"...


So, "not more than 900 million ('allowances'=tons?) and not more than once..." All too little, too slow, too late?

Anyone any ideas how to visualize what 900 million tons of pencil leads would look like?...


All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

A possibility to keep using coal as a clean energy source.

New Coal Technology Harnesses Energy Without Burning, Nears Pilot-Scale Development

COLUMBUS, Ohio—A new form of clean coal technology reached an important milestone recently, with the successful operation of a research-scale combustion system at Ohio State University. The technology is now ready for testing at a larger scale.

For 203 continuous hours, the Ohio State combustion unit produced heat from coal while capturing 99 percent of the carbon dioxide produced in the reaction.

So how long would it be before we had a viable coal fired power station in this way? The worlds coal is a finite amount, once its gone its gone. What is currently left is getting harder to extract economically.

There you have to define "economically", if in xx years the cost of imported coal rises by a significant amount then the UK's coal reserves could become economical again.

I'm pretty sure that I was told, many years ago, when I was at school, we had over 400 years worth of coal below our feet.