Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects: DENIAL


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Message 1389226 - Posted: 9 Jul 2013, 15:07:20 UTC
Last modified: 9 Jul 2013, 15:08:22 UTC

All a part of the arsenal of the Fossil-fuels sponsored lobby?


I love nature. For this I am called bourgeois, romantic – even fascist

Those of us who defend the planet are increasingly subject to abuse. It is the price we pay for confronting the power of money ...

... Earlier this year, the former energy minister John Hayes described concerns about the rainforests of Malaysia and Indonesia – which, with their tigers, orangutans and thousands of unique species, are being destroyed to grow biofuels – as "bourgeois views". ...

... But most important, perhaps, is an unconscious absorption of the demands of money. Unlike most art, the wonders of nature often stand in the way of attempts to extract resources or to build airports or shopping centres. Corporate attacks on people...




That also is a reminder of how politics and economic policies are poisoning the positive potential for biofuels for just one example by the deliberate inappropriate use to cause more harm than good...

And our world be damned for everyone?


All on our only one planet,
Martin
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Message 1389779 - Posted: 11 Jul 2013, 15:03:38 UTC

This news item is bound to make quite a climatic splash for the deniers:


Greener Deserts Could Be Result Of Higher Atmospheric CO2 Concentrations

... Knowing that CO2 levels have increased 14% during that period, the researchers calculated that desert foliage would have increased from 5-10% during that 28-year period. The satellite data revealed that they average increase in foliage during that time was 11%...

... The researchers warn that CO2 fertilization could have negative effects for native plants in these desert regions. "Trees are re-invading grass lands, and this could quite possibly be related to the CO2 effect," Donohue said. "Long-lived woody plants are deep rooted and are likely to benefit more than grasses from an increase in CO2." ...


Also, this is all before any major upheavals to the weather patterns have yet taken their negative toll to in effect uproot native species... How will that all balance out?... The uneven land distribution mainly north of the equator could yet give us a few surprises :-(


Are we now going to get the FUD argument that it "all ain't happening" but supposedly "it's all for our own good" in any case?!


And our world be damned for everyone?


All on our only one planet,
Martin


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Message 1389797 - Posted: 11 Jul 2013, 15:51:23 UTC - in response to Message 1389779.
Last modified: 11 Jul 2013, 15:51:55 UTC

This news item is bound to make quite a climatic splash for the deniers:


Greener Deserts Could Be Result Of Higher Atmospheric CO2 Concentrations

... Knowing that CO2 levels have increased 14% during that period, the researchers calculated that desert foliage would have increased from 5-10% during that 28-year period. The satellite data revealed that they average increase in foliage during that time was 11%...

... The researchers warn that CO2 fertilization could have negative effects for native plants in these desert regions. "Trees are re-invading grass lands, and this could quite possibly be related to the CO2 effect," Donohue said. "Long-lived woody plants are deep rooted and are likely to benefit more than grasses from an increase in CO2." ...


Also, this is all before any major upheavals to the weather patterns have yet taken their negative toll to in effect uproot native species... How will that all balance out?...

Just one example for here at home:


Climate change overseas likely to affect UK food supplies

Climate change abroad will have a more immediate effect on the UK than climate change at home, a report says.

... the UK is likely to be hit by increasingly volatile prices of many commodities as the climate is disrupted. [Defra report] warns that global production of some foodstuffs is concentrated in a few countries. These are likely to suffer increasing episodes of extreme weather.

The report says there will be opportunities for the UK from climate change but these are likely to be far outweighed by problems. ...




All on our only one planet,
Martin
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Message 1389818 - Posted: 11 Jul 2013, 16:52:26 UTC
Last modified: 11 Jul 2013, 16:54:07 UTC

In response to Message 1389800

Coal is natural but dug up by us.

So the below is or isn't natural? And what pumps out more Co2?



What pumps out more Co2, the photo or us?

See for yourself. Man has become far too recklessly dominant:


Plume of southern Asian pollution



Gulf of Mexico Oil Spill



Iraq up in smoke



Iraq up in smoke



Kuwait burning



Burning oil



Indonesian pollution



Chevron Refinery Explosion and Fire



All repeated many millions of times over in manmade fossil fuels power stations around the world.


We must find a solution before we burn our own planet around us... Or rather cook ourselves with our own CO2 pollution...

All on our only one planet,
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Message 1390173 - Posted: 12 Jul 2013, 16:29:48 UTC
Last modified: 12 Jul 2013, 16:30:39 UTC

Another part of the 'denial' problem:


Humans: the real threat to life on Earth

If population levels continue to rise at the current rate, our grandchildren will see the Earth plunged into an unprecedented environmental crisis...


All so very soon? Too soon??

Can better education and better politics overcome greed and selfish short-sighted politics?


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Message 1390186 - Posted: 12 Jul 2013, 17:03:18 UTC

Martin,

That is 7 posts in a row. Don't you think you are banging the drum a bit too much here?

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Message 1390196 - Posted: 12 Jul 2013, 17:21:51 UTC - in response to Message 1390186.

Martin,

That is 7 posts in a row. Don't you think you are banging the drum a bit too much here?


Yes, just a bit! Martin, you may have read that scientists have discovered
that worm poo can tell us a lot about climate changes over millions of years.
This stuff is still traceable hence can be analysed even though it may be
megga millions of years old. It can be found under the ice caps and also
in the sediments under all our oceans. CO2 levels when this poo was created
will also be able to be analysed...so some hard facts will come from this study..
...can't wait for the first results...most probably be several years before we
hear anything.


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Message 1390386 - Posted: 13 Jul 2013, 11:18:40 UTC - in response to Message 1390196.
Last modified: 13 Jul 2013, 11:53:01 UTC

How about it guys and gals.

Do you own a car ?
Do you fly on an airplane or take public transport?
Do you use electricity in your home?
How do you warm your House ?
Do you use air conditioning.
Do you have a fireplace ?
Do you eat meat or vegetables ?
Do you have a compost heap ?
Do you breathe air ?
Are you in favor of street lights ?
Do you use a washer, dryer or dishwasher ?
Do you own a powered lawn mower, weed wacker, hedge trimmer, power washer. chain saw etc

So even if I believed that C0-2 was deleterious I doubt that I would not engage in any of the events listed above. What are all of you non-deniers going to do or propose?

Please don't prosthelytize about CO-2 if you engage in any of the above. The world has an over-supply of ignorant hypocrites.

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Message 1390388 - Posted: 13 Jul 2013, 11:52:18 UTC

12 questions, I score 3 no's and 9 yes's as I suspect everyone else probably will.

Please don't prosthelytize about CO-2 if you engage in any of the above. The world has an over-supply of ignorant hypocrites.

And quite a few are on Seti Politics.

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Message 1390780 - Posted: 15 Jul 2013, 3:16:30 UTC - in response to Message 1390386.

How about it guys and gals.

Do you own a car ?
Do you fly on an airplane or take public transport?
Do you use electricity in your home?
How do you warm your House ?
Do you use air conditioning.
Do you have a fireplace ?
Do you eat meat or vegetables ?
Do you have a compost heap ?
Do you breathe air ?
Are you in favor of street lights ?
Do you use a washer, dryer or dishwasher ?
Do you own a powered lawn mower, weed wacker, hedge trimmer, power washer. chain saw etc

So even if I believed that C0-2 was deleterious I doubt that I would not engage in any of the events listed above. What are all of you non-deniers going to do or propose?

Please don't prosthelytize about CO-2 if you engage in any of the above. The world has an over-supply of ignorant hypocrites.


The question I have is. Even if the goverments of the world all got together and said we will impose such a nasty tax on CO2 emissions that it will cease. And all people will be made to live like they did before electricity, gasoline, oil lamps and what ever else we invented after the dark ages. What would you have? Youd have 6 billion humans burning either wood or coal for cooking or heat. Im sure 6 billion fires burning 24/7 would solve the problem of CO2.

Like I posted in another thread if the common man cant afford to buy electric cars and windmills and solar power he isnt going to get on the CO2 reduction band wagon.

I dont do two of the questions. And I dont want to live like they did in the middle ages.
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Message 1390782 - Posted: 15 Jul 2013, 3:40:19 UTC - in response to Message 1390780.

How about it guys and gals.

Do you own a car ?
Do you fly on an airplane or take public transport?
Do you use electricity in your home?
How do you warm your House ?
Do you use air conditioning.
Do you have a fireplace ?
Do you eat meat or vegetables ?
Do you have a compost heap ?
Do you breathe air ?
Are you in favor of street lights ?
Do you use a washer, dryer or dishwasher ?
Do you own a powered lawn mower, weed wacker, hedge trimmer, power washer. chain saw etc

So even if I believed that C0-2 was deleterious I doubt that I would not engage in any of the events listed above. What are all of you non-deniers going to do or propose?

Please don't prosthelytize about CO-2 if you engage in any of the above. The world has an over-supply of ignorant hypocrites.


The question I have is. Even if the goverments of the world all got together and said we will impose such a nasty tax on CO2 emissions that it will cease. And all people will be made to live like they did before electricity, gasoline, oil lamps and what ever else we invented after the dark ages. What would you have? Youd have 6 billion humans burning either wood or coal for cooking or heat. Im sure 6 billion fires burning 24/7 would solve the problem of CO2.

Precisely. Which is why all the methods being proposed are going to fail from a social engineering standpoint. In the face of a growing population it is impossible to cut CO2 emissions enough to make a minor dent.

Like I posted in another thread if the common man cant afford to buy electric cars and windmills and solar power he isnt going to get on the CO2 reduction band wagon.

I dont do two of the questions. And I dont want to live like they did in the middle ages.

No one will accept that. Nor is there any need to. However if we don't soon start down a path to limit the worlds population I suspect we will be living not like the middle ages but like the stone ages.

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Message 1390788 - Posted: 15 Jul 2013, 4:14:39 UTC

It agree that population control is needed. But even if we had 0 growth wed still have the problem of nobody wanting to give up their standard of living.
Lets take China as an example. They enforce population control but are one of the worlds worst polluters. I dont see them giving up a slice of the economic pie anytime soon.
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Message 1390811 - Posted: 15 Jul 2013, 5:33:06 UTC - in response to Message 1390788.

It agree that population control is needed. But even if we had 0 growth wed still have the problem of nobody wanting to give up their standard of living.
Lets take China as an example. They enforce population control but are one of the worlds worst polluters. I dont see them giving up a slice of the economic pie anytime soon.

Zero growth? Negative growth is needed!

You are right. No country will negotiate away any economic pie. Each will demand a bigger cut. So this reduction is going to have to be made some other way. War being a classic method. Perhaps today however a GM to human staple crops to make them function as birth control.


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Message 1391789 - Posted: 17 Jul 2013, 22:09:40 UTC - in response to Message 1390196.
Last modified: 17 Jul 2013, 22:10:43 UTC

Martin,

That is 7 posts in a row. Don't you think you are banging the drum a bit too much here?


Yes, just a bit! Martin, you may have read that scientists have discovered
that ...

Could be just that there's been a fair flurry of news and counter-news after the big speech by Obama about saving our planet from ourselves...


The flurry has been more positive than negative, so further comments listed over on the solutions thread.

All on our only one planet,
Martin
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Message 1393914 - Posted: 23 Jul 2013, 12:34:38 UTC
Last modified: 23 Jul 2013, 12:38:46 UTC

Here's a typically journalistic shallow summary but at least there are some useful numbers included and some good questions even the Denialists should not honestly be able to deny:


Why has global warming stalled?

... climate sceptics have for years pointed out that the world is not warming as rapidly as once forecast.

A lot depends on how you do the measurements, of course.

Each of the last few decades has been warmer than the last. But start your graph in 1998 - which happened to be an exceptionally warm year - and [then that erroneously suggests] there hasn't been much global warming at all. ...

... what's known as their "radiative forcing". Between 1998-2012, he reckons, manmade greenhouse gases were still the biggest influence, causing warming of 0.48 of a Watt per square metre (a key measure of energy flows to and from the planet).

At the same, he estimates, two other natural influences might have led to some cooling: a relatively quiet Sun might have been responsible for a reduction of 0.16 of a Watt/sq m and volcanic eruptions another 0.06 Watt/sq m.

A big unknown is the effect of aerosols - tiny particles released by industrial pollution which could cause a further cooling effect. It is thought that the world's massive industrialisation after World War Two contributed to a slight drop in global temperatures in the late 1940s.

But the key factor - according to all the speakers at the briefing - is that whatever solar energy is making it through to the surface, much is being absorbed by the hidden depths of the oceans. ...



Half a Watt per square metre of extra heat across the entire sunlit globe adds up to an awful lot of extra heating...

How quickly do we allow our industrialized pollution to cook ourselves?...

All on our only one planet,
Martin
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Message 1393951 - Posted: 23 Jul 2013, 15:11:20 UTC - in response to Message 1390196.

Martin,

That is 7 posts in a row. Don't you think you are banging the drum a bit too much here?


Yes, just a bit! Martin, you may have read that scientists have discovered
that worm poo can tell us a lot about climate changes over millions of years.
This stuff is still traceable hence can be analysed even though it may be
megga millions of years old. It can be found under the ice caps and also
in the sediments under all our oceans. CO2 levels when this poo was created
will also be able to be analysed...so some hard facts will come from this study..
...can't wait for the first results...most probably be several years before we
hear anything.



+1 just because I like worms and they don't lie.
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Message 1393952 - Posted: 23 Jul 2013, 15:12:20 UTC - in response to Message 1393914.

Here's a typically journalistic shallow summary but at least there are some useful numbers included and some good questions even the Denialists should not honestly be able to deny:


Why has global warming stalled?

... climate sceptics have for years pointed out that the world is not warming as rapidly as once forecast.

A lot depends on how you do the measurements, of course.

Each of the last few decades has been warmer than the last. But start your graph in 1998 - which happened to be an exceptionally warm year - and [then that erroneously suggests] there hasn't been much global warming at all. ...

... what's known as their "radiative forcing". Between 1998-2012, he reckons, manmade greenhouse gases were still the biggest influence, causing warming of 0.48 of a Watt per square metre (a key measure of energy flows to and from the planet).

At the same, he estimates, two other natural influences might have led to some cooling: a relatively quiet Sun might have been responsible for a reduction of 0.16 of a Watt/sq m and volcanic eruptions another 0.06 Watt/sq m.

A big unknown is the effect of aerosols - tiny particles released by industrial pollution which could cause a further cooling effect. It is thought that the world's massive industrialisation after World War Two contributed to a slight drop in global temperatures in the late 1940s.

But the key factor - according to all the speakers at the briefing - is that whatever solar energy is making it through to the surface, much is being absorbed by the hidden depths of the oceans. ...



Half a Watt per square metre of extra heat across the entire sunlit globe adds up to an awful lot of extra heating...

How quickly do we allow our industrialized pollution to cook ourselves?...

All on our only one planet,
Martin


Didn't the court system in your country tell you there wasn't any such thing as global warming?
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Message 1393957 - Posted: 23 Jul 2013, 15:24:17 UTC - in response to Message 1393952.
Last modified: 23 Jul 2013, 15:24:46 UTC

Didn't the court system in your country...

Care to give a link or document that can be discussed?

(Rather than the usual unfounded "It can't be so!" randomness?)


All on our only one planet,
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Message 1394008 - Posted: 23 Jul 2013, 21:44:27 UTC

hum ...

Does this sound familiar? x% of scientists believe in xyz therefor it must be true ...

Michael Watson wrote:
Dr. Davis is far from being the only scientifically trained person to have looked into the UFO problem, and to have concluded that the most reasonable explanation for some of the 10 or 15 % of persistently unidentifiable UFOs is extraterrestrial technology. The list of such persons has grown to considerable length, and contains some quite illustrious names.


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