Why are we still having to debate about abortion?


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Message 1330076 - Posted: 22 Jan 2013, 5:51:14 UTC

Every time some idiot goes on about "murdered babies" while ignoring the actual suffering of real live human children all I hear is that as a woman, I am not a human being.

If by some misfortune I end up pregnant when I don't want to be, do you really think that forcing me to become nothing but a vessel, an incubator for a baby is not a massive violation of my human rights?

Child birth is still dangerous, even a happy healthy pregnancy is an ordeal that leaves physical scars on a woman's body. I'm not talking about stretch marks. I am talking about actual painful damage to the body that does not go away.

Any man or woman here who thinks that the rights of a unformed creature that IS NOT A HUMAN BEING somehow trump the rights of a real, actual person is proving that he or she does not view a pregnant woman as a person in her own right, with all the rights and controls over her body that she should be afforded.

This is without mentioning the terrible emotional and financial cost of raising an unwanted child.

I am a person. I am not an incubator.

I do not understand why anyone would put me on an equal footing with a ball of cells that cannot survive outside of my body. I cannot understand why someone who would never even be at risk of being in that position thinks he can have any say in this issue.

I simply cannot understand why this is even an issue.

My body is my body.

The Taliban mentality of the "pro-life" brigade actually terrifies me.

I am a human being, try to remember that before you so much open your mouth or type one word about abortion.
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Message 1330156 - Posted: 22 Jan 2013, 14:28:57 UTC
Last modified: 21 Mar 2014, 19:22:12 UTC

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Message 1330204 - Posted: 22 Jan 2013, 20:25:02 UTC

Es,
I don't agree with all you have said, but I do accept you have the right to say it, and not suffer abuse for saying it.

I do believe that there are a few situations where abortion is a valid act, but, sadly, for many it has become an "act of convenience", where the child was the result of a misguided few minutes of pleasure on a drunken Friday night, or the child may have a deformity, or it is just plain "not the right time", these are all situations where abortion is a last resort, not a first resort.

On the other side, where there are potential serious health (physical or mental) issues for the mother and child then I'm for saving the one life for the sake of the other. And what about children conceived as a result of rape - its got to be down the woman to decide.

In most other situations I' would rather not see an abortion taking place, but each case has to be taken on its merit.

I do think that far too many who had no personal experience of abortion are too dogmatic on the subject, and too many of the "anti" camp are prone to fly off into unpleasant attacks.

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Message 1330218 - Posted: 22 Jan 2013, 21:14:19 UTC - in response to Message 1330156.

I'm going to take a chance here and loosen the rules I've recently been using in my interactions with most of you in here.

Thank you for keeping it civil

I told you once I would not harangue you any more about this topic Es, and I'll stand by that statement since you accidentally let slip a bit more about your personal life in some distant previous post and made me a little more aware of where you come from (not geographically, but emotionally.)

I am not sure what assumptions you have made, but be aware, just because I support a position, it does not necessarily mean I have been in that postition myself. I can just very easily put myself in someone else's shoes and imagine what it would be like if I was in that position.

I also said I would not join a thread created for some of you to argue and agree with each other about where life begins. If it had been anybody else but you, I would have ignored that new thread. And I know some of you are just waiting for me to post something so you can all collectively jump on me and call me a hypocrite. I will not give any of you that satisfaction either. Although, I can't help but to give Dale a "+1" for the rest of you reading this.

Dale's post is highly disturbed. I was hoping it would be removed. Perhaps the moderators have not got to it yet. I hope that is the case.

In an honest attempt to reach out to you, I will say this:

We are all spirits living in an extremely limited material world. By nature, we all make mistakes. To admit this is the first step. The second step is to acknowledge our own personal mistakes and to vow never to repeat them and to strive never to repeat these same mistakes. Notice I used the word "strive" as to never repeat the same mistakes we acknowledge is a goal, not an absolute.

We may argue about some of the issues of the day, such as how much collectivism is good for society, what rules we should force everyone to live under, and how nations should act with one another given we have somewhere in the neighborhood of 208 political entities on this planet, but to start arguing about the most basic, the most precious possession we have--life--can only come from people who recognize how precious life is and those who are rationalizing mistakes of their past. Now, before you jump to any conclusions, let me ask you how could I have said something like that without sounding like I'm being judgmental? All I can follow up with is to state that I'm not judging you. All I'm trying to do is give you something else to seriously think about.

I am not sure what you think you might be judging me about. I don't think this is an issue that anyone should judge anyone about. That is why I don't think there should be any laws about it. It really is no one's business than the unfortunate woman who has to make this difficult decision and her doctor.

I, too, have irreconcilable differences with the Catholic Church based on the most basic, precious thing we mere humans have--life. For the last decade, I've looked up towards the sky and asked, "why?" As a gal, you may or may not have had experiences based on decisions that you wish you had not made and have experienced a variety of emotions that could not be explained. But using phrases like, "some misfortune I end up pregnant," and "ball of cells" does make me lean towards the idea that you have.

Or the idea that as a woman I can forsee there is a chance I would end up in that situation whereas, I am pretty sure that you wouldn't.

What I have done is have children. Children I wanted. The thought of forcing a woman to bear children she cannot look after properly and does not want is abhorrent to me. I speak from a position that knows EXACTLY what is involved in having a child and raising it.

All I'm saying is that I've come to realize that mistakes of the past do not condemn your future if you first acknowledge and then strive to change. What awaits us in the future relies on this.

I acknowledge that any woman faced with a difficult decision must be allowed to do it. We cannot walk her path, and we should not force her to walk any path that she does not wish to. The consequences are too severe.

Now, I could reach out a bit further to you, but I hesitate at this point in time.

Guy, if you are worried that in the past I had an abortion and regret it, you are barking up the wrong tree. I've never had one, I never want one if at all possible. But should, for whatever situation may occur in my future that it becomes a possibly, I want that option. For my sake, and for sake of my current children.

For the rest of you, if you don't keep it civilized, I'm going straight back the rules I recently started using in my interactions with you.

I think I may need to point out some things in a post that you liked that are decisively uncivilized. Disturbingly so.
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Message 1330219 - Posted: 22 Jan 2013, 21:16:12 UTC

IMO, it is a question of who controls ones body. If it is ok for me to control a woman's body then why stop there? Why not ethnic or racial groups? Sort of like a civil rights thing.
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Message 1330220 - Posted: 22 Jan 2013, 21:20:23 UTC - in response to Message 1330204.

Es,
I don't agree with all you have said, but I do accept you have the right to say it, and not suffer abuse for saying it.

I do believe that there are a few situations where abortion is a valid act, but, sadly, for many it has become an "act of convenience", where the child was the result of a misguided few minutes of pleasure on a drunken Friday night, or the child may have a deformity, or it is just plain "not the right time", these are all situations where abortion is a last resort, not a first resort.

I find it odd that you presume to judge that it isn't.

On the other side, where there are potential serious health (physical or mental) issues for the mother and child then I'm for saving the one life for the sake of the other. And what about children conceived as a result of rape - its got to be down the woman to decide.

It is always for the woman to decide. No matter how the child is conceived.

In most other situations I' would rather not see an abortion taking place, but each case has to be taken on its merit.

I'd rather not see it myself. I'd rather we worked on preventing unwanted pregnancies through comprehensive sex education and free access to contraceptives. These are methods that have been proven to reduce abortion rates. However, if a woman does not wish to carry a child, she should not be forced to against her will. Whatever her reasons.

I do think that far too many who had no personal experience of abortion are too dogmatic on the subject, and too many of the "anti" camp are prone to fly off into unpleasant attacks.

You do not need to have personal experience of something to imagine yourself in that situation and think of how you would cope. It just takes a little empathy.
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Message 1330232 - Posted: 22 Jan 2013, 21:38:40 UTC

Es, rather than reply to all your comments in one hit and get us both confused I'll reply one at a time.


Es,
I don't agree with all you have said, but I do accept you have the right to say it, and not suffer abuse for saying it.

I do believe that there are a few situations where abortion is a valid act, but, sadly, for many it has become an "act of convenience", where the child was the result of a misguided few minutes of pleasure on a drunken Friday night, or the child may have a deformity, or it is just plain "not the right time", these are all situations where abortion is a last resort, not a first resort.



I find it odd that you presume to judge that it isn't.


I have had the misfortune to work with someone who considered it the first resort rather than using contraceptives (she was a, and I quote her "A good Catholic girl", with a very sad reputation). In the three years she worked with us she had four abortions, and several "D&C"s. She was a few years older than me, not some teenage bimbo (although I suspect she had behaved much the same in her previous decade)
That said I am certain in most cases abortion is not taken lightly, nor as first resort.
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Message 1330235 - Posted: 22 Jan 2013, 21:42:25 UTC

I'd rather not see it myself. I'd rather we worked on preventing unwanted pregnancies through comprehensive sex education and free access to contraceptives. These are methods that have been proven to reduce abortion rates. However, if a woman does not wish to carry a child, she should not be forced to against her will. Whatever her reasons.


I suspect that forcing a woman to carry an unwanted child to term will cause her not inconsiderable mental trauma. I often wander about the children born of such forcing to term, do they suffer rejection, abuse or whatever? I don't know, and I suspect that its a very rarely studied subject.
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Message 1330237 - Posted: 22 Jan 2013, 21:50:06 UTC
Last modified: 22 Jan 2013, 21:52:50 UTC

The question boils down to when does human life begin.

Is it human while it is still an egg in a ovary?
Is it human immediately upon fertilization?
It is human when it implants into the wall of the uterus?
Is it human when the midwife slaps it's rear?
Is it human when it reaches the age of majority?

Once we agree the debate goes away.

There are troglodytes who think that it is human while it is still an egg and the purpose of a women is to have as many babies as possible until menopause and anything that interferes with that is against god. These cultures frequently have arranged marriage upon the first menstrual cycle and prohibit women from education and require them to submit to rape by their husbands.
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Message 1330256 - Posted: 22 Jan 2013, 23:07:27 UTC

It is human immediately upon fertilization, the DNA says unique human. Therefore due all laws in the Constitution. If you can show me where the CHILD as ES HAS CLEARLY STATED commited a crime then we can move foreward with the TRIAL to take the HUMANS life.


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Message 1330257 - Posted: 22 Jan 2013, 23:15:23 UTC
Last modified: 23 Jan 2013, 0:59:31 UTC

Speaking as a poster, there should be no debate. SCOTUS decided this one long ago. The end?






Speaking as a moderator this thread has already caused emotions to run high and will be locked for 24 hours.
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Message 1330567 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 1:46:16 UTC
Last modified: 24 Jan 2013, 1:46:41 UTC

Does anyone deny the uniqueness of the DNA in a child after the first cell division?

Can anyone show me where such a child has committed a crime? If not, why is the death penalty delt to the innocent without due process of the rule of law?
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Message 1330571 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 2:10:46 UTC - in response to Message 1330567.
Last modified: 24 Jan 2013, 2:11:02 UTC

Does anyone deny the uniqueness of the DNA in a child after the first cell division?

Does anyone deny the uniqueness of the DNA in an embalmed body buried in the ground?
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Message 1330572 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 2:12:52 UTC

My view is simple, as long as there babies starving to death around the world lets worry about saving them and not chasing after and persecuting women who choose to have abortions.
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Message 1330573 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 2:19:30 UTC

troglodytes http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/23/contraception-abuse-coercion-gynecologists/1856885/

troglodytes http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/23/26-year-old-arizona-mother-six-escapes-jeffs-polygamous-sect/


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Message 1330581 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 3:14:18 UTC - in response to Message 1330567.

Does anyone deny the uniqueness of the DNA in a child after the first cell division?

Can anyone show me where such a child has committed a crime? If not, why is the death penalty delt to the innocent without due process of the rule of law?

ID, I can see you really care passionately about these supposed children (they are not children, and not even recognisable as such) but I digress.

If you truly believe that it is murder to abort these embryos then you must, and I mean must do what you can to save what you can. The technology is available now that makes it possible for one of these embryo's to be implanted in a male and gestated. Go now and offer yourself up as an incubator. After all, you cannot expect another person to do what you yourself would not.

Have that embryo implanted in you and grow it. They can remove it through c-section once it is viable. Dedicate the next 20 years to raising that child, your own personal circumstances to do so and your ability to do so are absolutely no excuse.
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Message 1330584 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 3:26:06 UTC - in response to Message 1330573.

troglodytes http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/23/contraception-abuse-coercion-gynecologists/1856885/

troglodytes http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/23/26-year-old-arizona-mother-six-escapes-jeffs-polygamous-sect/


Good grief.

I can think of one simple solution that would stop the need for abortions all together.

No more abortions. No more unwanted pregnancies.

We should make it illegal for me to produce sperm. Every man needs to be made to have a vasectomy. Before they do, they can put some sperm away for the day when they chose to father a child. Every child born will then be a child that is wanted and agreed to by both parents.

Why regulate women's bodies when it is so much easier and less invasive to legislate men's bodies?

And to all your horrified guys out there thinking "uh oh, no one's coming near my testicles, what happens to them is my choice" well there you go...and an unwanted vasectomy is far less invasive and dangerous than an unwanted pregnancy.

Any man who is serious about stopping abortion needs to put his money where his mouth is and get himself fixed. After all, it does take two to start a pregnancy.
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Message 1330590 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 3:53:19 UTC - in response to Message 1330584.

troglodytes http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/23/contraception-abuse-coercion-gynecologists/1856885/

troglodytes http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/23/26-year-old-arizona-mother-six-escapes-jeffs-polygamous-sect/


Good grief.

I can think of one simple solution that would stop the need for abortions all together.

No more abortions. No more unwanted pregnancies.

We should make it illegal for me to produce sperm. Every man needs to be made to have a vasectomy. Before they do, they can put some sperm away for the day when they chose to father a child. Every child born will then be a child that is wanted and agreed to by both parents.

Why regulate women's bodies when it is so much easier and less invasive to legislate men's bodies?

And to all your horrified guys out there thinking "uh oh, no one's coming near my testicles, what happens to them is my choice" well there you go...and an unwanted vasectomy is far less invasive and dangerous than an unwanted pregnancy.

Any man who is serious about stopping abortion needs to put his money where his mouth is and get himself fixed. After all, it does take two to start a pregnancy.


Great points. I think most men who oppose abortion do so because of misplaced religious zeal and a deep seeded need to dominate.
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Message 1330591 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 3:54:31 UTC

troglodyte leader: http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/ci_22419522/files-show-retired-cardinal-roger-mahony-la-church

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Message 1330592 - Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 3:55:22 UTC

Anything---ANYTHING, but personal responsibility. Typicl remarks from socialism, but I digress. Sheeple don't understand personal responsibility or rights for that matter.
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