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Message 1340571 - Posted: 24 Feb 2013, 22:09:10 UTC - in response to Message 1340427.

So Schwartz was out to steal $250,000,000.00 from Jstor, and the journal publishers by downloading and publishing all their content for free.


Phew!

So, by the same logic, by how much is Google monetarily (fiduciaryly) valued at?

How many years under the USA system should you be forfeit for having the audacity to use Google provided output?


Under the laws used, you are perpetrating a crime.

And yes, the USA laws are that vague.


It's the law is it?

You are criminal.

Regards,
Martin


All just my opinion after all...

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Message 1340611 - Posted: 25 Feb 2013, 1:26:02 UTC

Your bank gives online access. So when a script kiddie empties your account you shouldn't be upset, because your bank gave him access, after all he used a valid user id and password to log on. This is your logic Martin.

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Message 1340617 - Posted: 25 Feb 2013, 2:14:55 UTC - in response to Message 1340611.
Last modified: 25 Feb 2013, 2:15:22 UTC

Your bank gives online access. So when a script kiddie empties your account you shouldn't be upset, because your bank gave him access, after all he used a valid user id and password to log on. This is your logic Martin.

Sorry, you're just spouting random drivel. That is no analogy to the Aaron persecution to death.

Just the usual random trolling from you we see...


In the Aaron case, the prosecutors had enough legal vagueness to do exactly as they please at their whim with him. Which is what they appeared to do... Unto persecuted death.

No everyday private individual has the funds against the financial might of their department.


So... Just roll over and admit that you are guilty for whatever is randomly claimed? Such appears to be the USA justice system.

All just in the USA...
Martin
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Message 1340618 - Posted: 25 Feb 2013, 2:33:49 UTC - in response to Message 1340617.

Martin, the idea for the prosecution is big wins, the more they get the better their career path becomes.
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Message 1340635 - Posted: 25 Feb 2013, 5:23:22 UTC - in response to Message 1340618.

Martin, the idea for the prosecution is big wins, the more they get the better their career path becomes.

That is the prosecution, same for drugs, tax fraud or terrorism. The people want a quick plea so taxpayer dollars are saved not wasted on trying the guilty. Nothing wrong with that.

Martin thinks a copyright is theft from the people, his issue is with the Congress, and the Constitution that make copyrights enforceable. He simply can't admit the multiple felonies over an extended period of time as he refuses to believe that copyright can exist, or so it seems.

I suppose it might be the first time Martin has ever looked at a law. If so he has no idea that it is impossible to walk to the market, buy a few things, and walk back without breaking some law. There are tens of thousands of ridiculous laws on the books. People don't go to jail for them. Prosecutors would be fired for charging people with flatulence in the US, but in Malawi it is a capital crime. A US jury would laugh at that. The judge would rant and rave at the prosecutor for wasting his time. I simply can't believe that it is Martin's first time looking at a law.

That leads me to one of three conclusions:
He is deliberately trolling,
He is a fool,
He must be living in an altered state of reality.

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Message 1340661 - Posted: 25 Feb 2013, 9:00:00 UTC - in response to Message 1340635.

Martin, the idea for the prosecution is big wins, the more they get the better their career path becomes.

That is the prosecution, same for drugs, tax fraud or terrorism. The people want a quick plea so taxpayer dollars are saved not wasted on trying the guilty. Nothing wrong with that.

There's everything wrong with that if you include the scope for coercion and "legal abuse"...


That leads me to one of three conclusions:
He is deliberately trolling,
He is a fool,
He must be living in an altered state of reality.

Mirror, mirror, on the wall,...?


Meanwhile, recently in the real world of the USA:

Aaron Swartz's Girlfriend Explains 'Why Aaron Died'

... she is the person Swartz spent the most time with in the last 20 months of his life — living together, commuting together and working together. And for her, that person she spent so much time with was not showing symptoms of depression, according to an emotional blog post on Tumblr.

At the time of his death, Swartz was facing a potential conviction of 35 years and up to $1 million in fines for allegedly...

... "I don’t know exactly why Aaron killed himself. I don’t know exactly what was going through his mind. If I had known those things on January 11, if I had even known the right questions to ask, maybe I could have stopped him. Since January 11, I think about it every hour of every day. . .

I believe Aaron’s death was caused by exhaustion, by fear, and by uncertainty. I believe that Aaron’s death was caused by a persecution and a prosecution that had already wound on for 2 years (what happened to our right to a speedy trial?) and had already drained all of his financial resources.

I believe that Aaron’s death was caused by a criminal justice system that prioritizes power over mercy, vengeance over justice; a system that punishes innocent people for trying to prove their innocence instead of accepting plea deals that mark them as criminals in perpetuity; a system where incentives and power structures align for prosecutors to destroy the life of an innovator like Aaron in the pursuit of their own ambitions."

... or even for that matter that they were ready to offer a reasonable plea deal that wouldn’t have marked Aaron as a felon for the rest of his life — would Aaron have killed himself on January 11? The answer is unquestionably no." ...



U.S. attorney: Criticism of Aaron Swartz prosecution is 'unfair'

... Ortiz, 57, said in a radio interview that a wave of criticism -- which includes a congressional investigation, a court Web site hack, and a petition demanding her removal from office -- is off-base and uninformed. ...

... WBUR and Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly published a joint report into Ortiz's tenure that found "other prosecutions that parallel the Swartz case" that may "raise similar concerns about her hands-off leadership style, overzealousness, judgment and use of discretion at the grand jury and trial levels." ...



JSTOR Statement

... We have had inquiries about JSTOR’s view of this sad event given the charges against Aaron and the trial scheduled for April. The case is one that we ourselves had regretted being drawn into from the outset, since JSTOR’s mission is to foster widespread access to the world’s body of scholarly knowledge. At the same time, as one of the largest archives of scholarly literature in the world, we must be careful stewards of the information entrusted to us by the owners and creators of that content. To that end, Aaron returned the data he had in his possession and JSTOR settled any civil claims we might have had against him in June 2011. ...


Lawmakers Demand Answers About Aaron Swartz Case

... "Many questions have been raised about the appropriate level of punishment sought by prosecutors for Mr. Swartz's alleged offenses, and how the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, cited in 11 of 13 counts against Mr. Swartz, should apply under similar circumstances,"...


Congresswoman Posts Revamped 'Aaron's Law' on Reddit

... "Thank you, Reddit and everyone else who provided feedback to the original rough draft bill to reform the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA) and the wire fraud statute — the laws the government used to unfairly prosecute Aaron Swartz,"...


Still a great shame Aaron had to die for the sake of someone else's career elevation. All very unnecessary.

So... Are you happy to forfeit say, 2 years of your life and all your fiduciaries, for the sake of tripping up over one of your ridiculous laws that is then randomly and arbitrarily laid against you?


Only in the USA...
So much for freedom?
Martin

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Message 1340689 - Posted: 25 Feb 2013, 13:07:37 UTC - in response to Message 1340661.
Last modified: 25 Feb 2013, 13:08:29 UTC

Martin, the idea for the prosecution is big wins, the more they get the better their career path becomes.

That is the prosecution, same for drugs, tax fraud or terrorism. The people want a quick plea so taxpayer dollars are saved not wasted on trying the guilty. Nothing wrong with that.

There's everything wrong with that if you include the scope for coercion and "legal abuse"...


That leads me to one of three conclusions:
He is deliberately trolling,
He is a fool,
He must be living in an altered state of reality.

Mirror, mirror, on the wall,...?


Meanwhile, recently in the real world of the USA:

Aaron Swartz's Girlfriend Explains 'Why Aaron Died'

... she is the person Swartz spent the most time with in the last 20 months of his life — living together, commuting together and working together. And for her, that person she spent so much time with was not showing symptoms of depression, according to an emotional blog post on Tumblr.

At the time of his death, Swartz was facing a potential conviction of 35 years and up to $1 million in fines for allegedly...

... "I don’t know exactly why Aaron killed himself. I don’t know exactly what was going through his mind. If I had known those things on January 11, if I had even known the right questions to ask, maybe I could have stopped him. Since January 11, I think about it every hour of every day. . .

I believe Aaron’s death was caused by exhaustion, by fear, and by uncertainty. I believe that Aaron’s death was caused by a persecution and a prosecution that had already wound on for 2 years (what happened to our right to a speedy trial?) and had already drained all of his financial resources.

I believe that Aaron’s death was caused by a criminal justice system that prioritizes power over mercy, vengeance over justice; a system that punishes innocent people for trying to prove their innocence instead of accepting plea deals that mark them as criminals in perpetuity; a system where incentives and power structures align for prosecutors to destroy the life of an innovator like Aaron in the pursuit of their own ambitions."

... or even for that matter that they were ready to offer a reasonable plea deal that wouldn’t have marked Aaron as a felon for the rest of his life — would Aaron have killed himself on January 11? The answer is unquestionably no." ...



U.S. attorney: Criticism of Aaron Swartz prosecution is 'unfair'

... Ortiz, 57, said in a radio interview that a wave of criticism -- which includes a congressional investigation, a court Web site hack, and a petition demanding her removal from office -- is off-base and uninformed. ...

... WBUR and Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly published a joint report into Ortiz's tenure that found "other prosecutions that parallel the Swartz case" that may "raise similar concerns about her hands-off leadership style, overzealousness, judgment and use of discretion at the grand jury and trial levels." ...



JSTOR Statement

... We have had inquiries about JSTOR’s view of this sad event given the charges against Aaron and the trial scheduled for April. The case is one that we ourselves had regretted being drawn into from the outset, since JSTOR’s mission is to foster widespread access to the world’s body of scholarly knowledge. At the same time, as one of the largest archives of scholarly literature in the world, we must be careful stewards of the information entrusted to us by the owners and creators of that content. To that end, Aaron returned the data he had in his possession and JSTOR settled any civil claims we might have had against him in June 2011. ...


Lawmakers Demand Answers About Aaron Swartz Case

... "Many questions have been raised about the appropriate level of punishment sought by prosecutors for Mr. Swartz's alleged offenses, and how the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, cited in 11 of 13 counts against Mr. Swartz, should apply under similar circumstances,"...


Congresswoman Posts Revamped 'Aaron's Law' on Reddit

... "Thank you, Reddit and everyone else who provided feedback to the original rough draft bill to reform the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA) and the wire fraud statute — the laws the government used to unfairly prosecute Aaron Swartz,"...


Still a great shame Aaron had to die for the sake of someone else's career elevation. All very unnecessary.

So... Are you happy to forfeit say, 2 years of your life and all your fiduciaries, for the sake of tripping up over one of your ridiculous laws that is then randomly and arbitrarily laid against you?


Only in the USA...
So much for freedom?
Martin


So lets say you wrote a book. And the publisher thinks it is a best seller. They are printing it up for release but then some hacker who thinks copyrights are stupid gets into the publishers computer and steals your book and puts it on the internet so everyone can read for free. The publisher ask for the advance they gave you beacuse your book is not selling. After the hacker is caught he gives the publisher back the thumb drive he downloaded your book to.
So that makes everything all right?

You keep harping on when ever we use the internet we are breaking the lwas. Well prove it. Give us some examples. Why if we use google are we going to prison? And I say to you the UK must have some stupid laws to. Why look at the poor travelers in your own country. Dont squatters have rights also?
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Message 1340708 - Posted: 25 Feb 2013, 14:50:16 UTC - in response to Message 1340661.

Aaron Swartz's Girlfriend Explains 'Why Aaron Died'
At the time of his death, Swartz was facing a potential conviction of 35 years and up to $1 million in fines for allegedly...

Claptrap, BS and lies designed to sell advertising ...

http://www.volokh.com/2013/01/16/the-criminal-charges-against-aaron-swartz-part-2-prosecutorial-discretion/
So, realistically, Swartz was facing ... 0-6 months in jail if he pled guilty.

Calm truth.

Seems Martin is living in an altered state of reality.

That Swartz was is a given, it is obvious he thought he could do any crime and not be caught and punished. When reality arrived his guilt overcame and he took the cowards way out.

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Message 1341169 - Posted: 27 Feb 2013, 5:48:50 UTC - in response to Message 1340708.

Aaron Swartz's Girlfriend Explains 'Why Aaron Died'
At the time of his death, Swartz was facing a potential conviction of 35 years and up to $1 million in fines for allegedly...

Claptrap, BS and lies designed to sell advertising ...

http://www.volokh.com/2013/01/16/the-criminal-charges-against-aaron-swartz-part-2-prosecutorial-discretion/
So, realistically, Swartz was facing ... 0-6 months in jail if he pled guilty.

Calm truth.

Seems Martin is living in an altered state of reality.

That Swartz was is a given, it is obvious he thought he could do any crime and not be caught and punished. When reality arrived his guilt overcame and he took the cowards way out.


if he had initially accepted the plea bargain and plead guilty to something that he believed wasn't a crime yes he could have taken that one time offer

since he didn't take it when it was on the table the DA removed it and as such he was looking at 35 to 60 years if found guilty in court
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Message 1341199 - Posted: 27 Feb 2013, 6:57:11 UTC - in response to Message 1341169.

Aaron Swartz's Girlfriend Explains 'Why Aaron Died'
At the time of his death, Swartz was facing a potential conviction of 35 years and up to $1 million in fines for allegedly...

Claptrap, BS and lies designed to sell advertising ...

http://www.volokh.com/2013/01/16/the-criminal-charges-against-aaron-swartz-part-2-prosecutorial-discretion/
So, realistically, Swartz was facing ... 0-6 months in jail if he pled guilty.

Calm truth.

Seems Martin is living in an altered state of reality.

That Swartz was is a given, it is obvious he thought he could do any crime and not be caught and punished. When reality arrived his guilt overcame and he took the cowards way out.


if he had initially accepted the plea bargain and plead guilty to something that he believed wasn't a crime yes he could have taken that one time offer

since he didn't take it when it was on the table the DA removed it

Source for claiming the TWO different offers were removed from the table? Also note that it was not a DA prosecuting him, but an AUSA. (If a crime beat writer doesn't know the difference he is automatically untrustworthy.)

and as such he was looking at 35 to 60 years if found guilty in court

That is utter BS and had been refuted before.
From Volokh
To calculate how much time Swartz might have faced if he went to trial and was convicted, we need to consider the relevant provision of the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines, Section 2B1.1. ... Swartz’s lawyers thought that Swartz might get just probation

Where are these claptrap BS numbers coming from?

Volokh is quoting the US Sentencing guidelines! Maybe you should read them!

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Message 1342061 - Posted: 1 Mar 2013, 16:44:30 UTC

Another person who thought information should be free ...
Army Private Admits Giving Military Files to WikiLeaks

FORT MEADE, Md. — Pfc. Bradley Manning on Thursday confessed in open court to providing vast archives of military and diplomatic files to the antisecrecy group WikiLeaks, saying that he wanted the information to become public “to make the world a better place.”

Why isn't Swartz around? Because he wasn't held in a cell under a 24/7 suicide watch?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/01/1166253/-The-Torture-Techniques-Used-on-Bradley-Manning
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Message 1342143 - Posted: 1 Mar 2013, 18:53:40 UTC
Last modified: 1 Mar 2013, 18:55:19 UTC

The thing about about the Manning case that gets me is, "How the hell was he able to do it." and why haven't we heard that someone has been punished for allowing it to happen.

I spent over 25 years dealing with UK and NATO secret equipments and paperwork, and then after that doing work for similar organisations.

The office for the last jobs, could only be entered if you where cleared and needed to be in there. Even our adminstrative bosses were not allowed access. The computers had no floppies, cd drives and the in/out ports were disabled, we had our own separate server and no connection to the internet. Anything that went in or out of the office was recorded by at least two people and had a paper trail miles long recording who and where it had come from or was going to. And if you left the building you had to remove the caddy mounted HDD and store it in the fire proof safe.

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Message 1342152 - Posted: 1 Mar 2013, 19:07:35 UTC
Last modified: 1 Mar 2013, 19:09:29 UTC

WK, been there and done it. For a while in my job as a Computer Support Manager with a public utility, I had to upgrade a certain Department that dealt with Government security. And yes, the new machines had to have removable caddies so that the hard disks could be put in secure fire safes overnight. And you couldn't get in or out of the office without prior authorisation and a personal escort. Pretty much standard procedure in those circumstances.

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Message 1342193 - Posted: 1 Mar 2013, 20:34:41 UTC - in response to Message 1342152.

The funniest thing that happened there was, photo's of the said device were required. So I took the office DSLR, they were very new at that stage, ~£2,000 just for the body, and used those mini card disc drives. When we got back, the camera and all the drives had to go into the safe, and only came out a few months later after the camera was cleared by the Ministry security guru. The drives he just got a hammer from his car and destroyed them, totally.

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Message 1342286 - Posted: 2 Mar 2013, 3:30:12 UTC

in the us copy write if you follow the rules and recopy write is for ever.

so copy write law in the us badly needs an overhaul.

the music industry is literally running out of new note configurations that are

copy writable.

this is not about piracy it is about loss of control.

the powers that be in this country do not what to loss control damn the cost

or even what it does to the economy,if it disrupts business and makes research

impossible that is ok too.
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Message 1344193 - Posted: 8 Mar 2013, 20:38:33 UTC

One small ripple:


Obama to make research results publicly available

... With its initiative, Washington generally wants to ensure that actual scientific research data becomes as available as possible to the public, to industry and to the research community with as few barriers as possible. This could encourage innovative breakthroughs and promote the economy, said the White House. ...


And someone had to die for that?


All on our only world,
Martin

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Message 1344212 - Posted: 8 Mar 2013, 21:28:18 UTC - in response to Message 1344193.

One small ripple:


Obama to make research results publicly available

... With its initiative, Washington generally wants to ensure that actual scientific research data becomes as available as possible to the public, to industry and to the research community with as few barriers as possible. This could encourage innovative breakthroughs and promote the economy, said the White House. ...


And someone had to die for that?


All on our only world,
Martin


So what if the president said it. He has to follow the law just like every other U.S. citizen. Just because he states what he wants to happen dosent mean that it will .

laws dont get overhauled on whims. Big money by powerfull men made political contrabutions to get those laws made. I dont see any changes coming soon.

And nobody had to die. Your man quit. That was his choice.
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Message 1344237 - Posted: 8 Mar 2013, 22:25:21 UTC

Apparently Martin is under the impression that only the US Federal Government funds scientific research that is printed in scientific journals.

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Message 1344256 - Posted: 8 Mar 2013, 23:17:18 UTC

Judge for yourselves:

"There is no justice in following unjust laws," ... "We need to take information, wherever it is stored, make our copies and share them with the world."

- Aaron Swartz



Outrageous injustice?


Attorney General's testimony on Aaron Swartz raises more questions than answers

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder this week strained to convince Senators that federal prosecutors exercised "good prosecutorial discretion" in handling the indictment of 26-year-old Aaron Swartz. Yet his testimony before the Senate Judiciary committee raised more questions than it answered. ...

... At a broader level, the exchange between the Attorney General and the Judiciary Committee shines a spotlight on inconsistencies in the justice system. Cyber criminals often seem to face disproportionately aggressive prosecution and sentencing -- while major financial institutions that had a role in creating the financial crisis remain, by the attorney general's own admission, untouchable. ...

... "Does it strike you as odd that the government would indict someone for crimes that would carry penalties of up to 35 years in prison and million dollar fines and then offer him a three- or four-month prison sentence?"

Holder side-stepped the question...

... Holder's assurances didn't satisfy Cornyn, and understandably so. Consider what Swartz allegedly did: He entered a server room on the MIT campus, connected his computer to the network, and used his legitimate, unlimited access to JSTOR to download 4.8 million documents. He didn't actually hack anything. He didn't make and distribute illegal copies. The worst thing Swartz may have done is trespass. ...



White House Owes Response To Petition To Fire Prosecutor Of Aaron Swartz And Other Hackers

U.S. assistant attorney Stephen Heymann built his career taking on hackers in computer crime cases. Now at least 25,000 people believe he took one such case too far...

... Another petition calling for the dismissal of Heymann’s boss, U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz, quickly reached more than 52,000 signatures in the days following Swartz’s suicide. ...

... Heymann received a Department of Justice award for his convictions of five defendants in the case, which included a 15-year sentence for the most active member of the team, Alberto Gonzalez. But the case’s outcome was also controversial: One defendant, Stephen Watt, was sentenced to two years in prison despite claiming to have merely written one element of the software Gonzalez used. Another hacker involved in the case, Jonathan James, committed suicide. ...




Note that by the same rules, very likely you can be argued yourselves to be just as guilty by just merely 'hacking' onto any internet forums...


Only in the USA?
Martin

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Message 1344266 - Posted: 8 Mar 2013, 23:56:45 UTC - in response to Message 1344256.

Judge for yourselves:

"There is no justice in following unjust laws," ... "We need to take information, wherever it is stored, make our copies and share them with the world."

- Aaron Swartz



Outrageous injustice?


Attorney General's testimony on Aaron Swartz raises more questions than answers

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder this week strained to convince Senators that federal prosecutors exercised "good prosecutorial discretion" in handling the indictment of 26-year-old Aaron Swartz. Yet his testimony before the Senate Judiciary committee raised more questions than it answered. ...

... At a broader level, the exchange between the Attorney General and the Judiciary Committee shines a spotlight on inconsistencies in the justice system. Cyber criminals often seem to face disproportionately aggressive prosecution and sentencing -- while major financial institutions that had a role in creating the financial crisis remain, by the attorney general's own admission, untouchable. ...

... "Does it strike you as odd that the government would indict someone for crimes that would carry penalties of up to 35 years in prison and million dollar fines and then offer him a three- or four-month prison sentence?"

Holder side-stepped the question...

... Holder's assurances didn't satisfy Cornyn, and understandably so. Consider what Swartz allegedly did: He entered a server room on the MIT campus, connected his computer to the network, and used his legitimate, unlimited access to JSTOR to download 4.8 million documents. He didn't actually hack anything. He didn't make and distribute illegal copies. The worst thing Swartz may have done is trespass. ...



White House Owes Response To Petition To Fire Prosecutor Of Aaron Swartz And Other Hackers

U.S. assistant attorney Stephen Heymann built his career taking on hackers in computer crime cases. Now at least 25,000 people believe he took one such case too far...

... Another petition calling for the dismissal of Heymann’s boss, U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz, quickly reached more than 52,000 signatures in the days following Swartz’s suicide. ...

... Heymann received a Department of Justice award for his convictions of five defendants in the case, which included a 15-year sentence for the most active member of the team, Alberto Gonzalez. But the case’s outcome was also controversial: One defendant, Stephen Watt, was sentenced to two years in prison despite claiming to have merely written one element of the software Gonzalez used. Another hacker involved in the case, Jonathan James, committed suicide. ...




Note that by the same rules, very likely you can be argued yourselves to be just as guilty by just merely 'hacking' onto any internet forums...


Only in the USA?
Martin

BULL COOKIES. First of all why would I hack into any internet forum when I can just join it. As long as I follow that forums TOS I am afforded the privallge of partaking that forums discourse.

And he ddint have unlimited access. He had limited acceess that he abused for two months by using aliases and other such means.
And now you state that there were others involved in this. Well now that puts a whole new spin on this case. Sounds like a group of like minded hackers who wanted to steal documents. And in your own quote you state software was written for Gonzales to use. HACKERS!!!!!!!
Sorry Martin you can not justify such actions and blame US law.
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