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Discussion of Cafe games #5
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30649 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
The thing is you don't know how someone will react seeing their images on another site. Ah, but they aren't on another site, they are on their own site, even if they are too stupid to realize it. Some may like the extra attention (possible sales), others will see it as copyright infringement and go straight to the layers, not even bothering with an e-mail to us saying that they don't want their images appearing on the forums and could we please remove them. Well, then they lose by default, at least against the Regents. They first have to send a DMCA notice, or the court won't hear the case. Oh and if they expect to collect damages they will have to use US Federal Court. Then there also a bandwidth issue. Hotlinking is using their bandwidth in showing the images here, we don't know what their penalties/costs are if they use more than X a month. Which is entirely within their control. Just use htaccess If their IT people are so dumb they don't know it is there ... Well that would be like getting mad at spiders because you don't have a robots.txt file ... |
Dimly Lit Lightbulb 😀 Send message Joined: 30 Aug 08 Posts: 15399 Credit: 7,423,413 RAC: 1 |
The thing is you don't know how someone will react seeing their images on another site. If I'm not mistaken the Berkeley fellas have done the robots thing and yet google turns up results from here. Member of the People Encouraging Niceness In Society club. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30649 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
If I'm not mistaken the Berkeley fellas have done the robots thing and yet google turns up results from here. Don't see forum_thread.php being disallowed ... User-agent: * Disallow: /account Disallow: /add_venue Disallow: /am_ Disallow: /bug_report Disallow: /edit_ Disallow: /host_ Disallow: /hosts_ Disallow: /prefs_ Disallow: /result Disallow: /team Disallow: /workunit Disallow: /cgi-bin Disallow: /show_ Disallow: /profile_ Disallow: /team_ Disallow: /ntpckr.php Disallow: /~aparsons/guitar/guitar.py.cgi Disallow: /sah/ Disallow: /beta/account Disallow: /beta/add_venue Disallow: /beta/am_ Disallow: /beta/bug_report Disallow: /beta/edit_ Disallow: /beta/host_ Disallow: /beta/hosts_ Disallow: /beta/prefs_ Disallow: /beta/result Disallow: /beta/team Disallow: /beta/workunit Disallow: /beta/cgi-bin Disallow: /beta/show_ Disallow: /beta/profile_ Disallow: /beta/team_ Disallow: /beta// |
David S Send message Joined: 4 Oct 99 Posts: 18352 Credit: 27,761,924 RAC: 12 |
It is up to all owners of graphics, artwork, pictures, to clearly state that Copyright is reserved, and that prior agreement is required to reproduce it elsewhere. It is not legally necessary for them to put the notice on the image itself, or anywhere really. Copyright is automatic as soon as the image is created. Posting a notice just makes it easier to prove your case in court. Among the railfan community, a lot of guys who wouldn't think twice about downloading someone else's picture, even when there's a clear statement that they can't, suddenly get all snippy when they post their own pictures and then find that someone else has downloaded them, cropped off the watermarked copyright notice, and posted them as their own. This all started because of the count to thread, which once we got to over 5000 or so was pretty much restricted to having to use part numbers and locomotives. And sunspots. P.S. What about the pics in the mystery kitchen tool thread? They are nearly all from manufacturers websites. Are they happy with free advertising or not. Dunno. They might (I said might) not mind if we post a link to the site, at least at the end of the game, but we often don't. There have been a lot of pictures posted in other threads lately, too. The rule of thumb I use when I want to use a picture is twofold: 1. Do I have cause to call my use "fair use?" (My non-expert opinion is that, generally, we don't in these forums.) 2. Does the site specifically say I can use it? If the answer to either of those is yes, I'm okay. (No, I haven't always used this rule when posting here, but I'm at least thinking about it.) David Sitting on my butt while others boldly go, Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30649 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
2. Does the site specifically say I can use it? If the answer to either of those is yes, I'm okay. If their site disables hot linking, then it is obvious they don't want their pictures spread about. If they leave it enabled, that is free permission to pass it about. |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22200 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
WRONG, how totally and utterly WRONG Copyright is an absolute, that may waived or amended by a positive action by the copyright holder. The fact that someone does not prevent hot-linking is not a sign that they permitting you to hot link to material on that site. If someone posts an image with a copyright message, either as a watermark on the image, or as part of the page on which the image is hosted then someone is taking a positive step to say "DO NOT COPY, or HOT LINK this material". That is simply re-stating their rights. Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
Bernie Vine Send message Joined: 26 May 99 Posts: 9954 Credit: 103,452,613 RAC: 328 |
This is taken from the University of California website. Because copyright protection vests automatically to any original work that is fixed in a tangible medium, anything and everything on a posted Web site could potentially be under copyright protection. Copyright law protects not only the content of a Web site, but also the arrangement, the graphics, and the selection of links. The decision to post material on the Web and to give unrestricted access does not put it in the public domain. Likewise, the lack of a copyright notice on a Web page does not put it in the public domain. Therefore, you should assume that copyright protects almost everything that you find on the Web. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30649 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
WRONG, how totally and utterly WRONG A hot link does not make a copy. It isn't taking a screen shot. It isn't uploading the item to photobucket. It isn't printing it on paper. Making a copy is what copyright protects. The server that the link points to makes the copy, and that is presumably under the control of the copyright owner. If he doesn't want his server making copies, it is up to him to control this. If he allows it, he is giving permission for this copy. In any case this has been decided at the Federal Appelate Court level. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inline_linking Copyright law issues that inline linking raises I note the Ninth Circuit is where Seti is located, so this is the law! |
Mike Send message Joined: 17 Feb 01 Posts: 34258 Credit: 79,922,639 RAC: 80 |
That hits the nail on its head Gary. With each crime and every kindness we birth our future. |
Bernie Vine Send message Joined: 26 May 99 Posts: 9954 Credit: 103,452,613 RAC: 328 |
This pointer causes a user's browser to jump to the proprietor's server and fetch the image file to the user's computer. US courts have considered this a decisive fact in copyright analysis. Tel me does your browsers jump to the server Can you see anywhere on this page where this picture is located. No you have to right click on the image to find out anything This is a hotlink http://daciagallery.com/artwork/janet-a-cook.php I would still abide by the University of California advice. PS the website I have used here I have the artists permission. |
James Sotherden Send message Joined: 16 May 99 Posts: 10436 Credit: 110,373,059 RAC: 54 |
Headquartered in San Francisco, California, the Ninth Circuit is by far the largest of the thirteen courts of appeals, with 29 active judgeships. It has happend where one court will in a similar case reach a different verdict. One reason why we have the US Supreme court. [/quote] Old James |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30649 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Headquartered in San Francisco, California, the Ninth Circuit is by far the largest of the thirteen courts of appeals, with 29 active judgeships. Yes we do. And until they say otherwise this is the law in the Ninth. In Seti's case (the Regents of the University of California at Berkeley), the court of jurisdiction is located within the boundaries of the Ninth Circuit. (In the US generally you have to sue where the defendant is located or the act took place. One reason Delaware has so many Corporations there.) Also you should complete the legal research and see if the case ever was appealed and Cert denied at SCOTUS. You would also see if the opinion is being cited in the other districts. This is what you pay lawyers to do. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30649 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
I would still abide by the University of California advice. Obviously Seti, being an part of them would be required to or be kicked out. The Regents would also be free to establish a policy of discouraging hot linking. |
Shannock9 Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 1396 Credit: 634,964 RAC: 0 |
I have been asked to remind the soon to be winner of TLPTPW to post "the rules" at the start of a new thread, and to pass the message on to the next winner. After scouring this thread >>and consolidating a few posts<< "the rules" seem to be..... The Last Person To Post Wins thread, general rules: Is this OK? |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22200 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
TLTPW roolz - Looks good to me. Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22200 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
The issue of copyright material is not as easy as Gary would have us believe. In addition to the US law, upon which we have one guiding note applying to one sub-jurisdiction: The poster is bound by their local jurisdiction, thus if their post is in breach of copyright in their country then they can be pursued by the legal system in that country. The copyright holder has the right to legal protection under their own legal system from actions either by the individual (the poster) or other parties. The most likely first step of any case would be a "take down" request from the copyright holder - we've had one very recently. Failure to comply with this request would probably then escalate to letter from their lawyer requesting the material to be "taken down" or legal action would be taken (each getting more strongly worded). Finally the "day in court", and all that entails, with appeals, counter appeals and lawyers running up costs on both sides. Obviously it makes sense not to get into the situation where the lawyers get involved, and "take down" the material, and other similar material on receipt of the first "take down" request. And unlike others who have run to "Wiki" or "Google" for their guidance mine has come from a lawyer. When I was pursuing someone for breach of copyright on my own material. I am glad to say that the first letter got the desired result, at which time the legal advise had only cost me a decent meal, not the thousands of pounds a court case would have. Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22200 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
Now if it were Julie I would bow out gracefully and allow the lady to take the reins, but you it would be pistols at dawn... (if I could find my pistols that is) Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22200 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
Done :-) So long as you buy me one next time around Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
Shannock9 Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 1396 Credit: 634,964 RAC: 0 |
I support and endorse the LPTPW rues as listed here, however can I suggest that supplemental rule A needs expanding upon. If a multiple posting covers the target number, and is not allowed, then should it be the previous poster that wins, or the next poster? i.e. If the number is 500, I post 498, someone posts 499,500,501, then Rob posts 502. Do I win or Rob? As written it must be the first nonmultiple post after the event, because "no element of a multiple posting may trigger the winning event". [This was not worded lightly.] But supplementaray B should say "However the winning event is defined it should probably take less than 600 posts AND less than two weeks to achieve". [Obviously I was getting tired by then.] |
James Sotherden Send message Joined: 16 May 99 Posts: 10436 Credit: 110,373,059 RAC: 54 |
I have been asked to remind the soon to be winner of TLPTPW to post "the rules" at the start of a new thread, and to pass the message on to the next winner. After scouring this thread >>and consolidating a few posts<< "the rules" seem to be..... I would add no clearly copyrighted pictures. [/quote] Old James |
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