Discussion of Cafe games #5


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Profile Bernie Vine
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Message 1352555 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 20:31:32 UTC

This is taken from the University of California website.

Because copyright protection vests automatically to any original work that is fixed in a tangible medium, anything and everything on a posted Web site could potentially be under copyright protection. Copyright law protects not only the content of a Web site, but also the arrangement, the graphics, and the selection of links. The decision to post material on the Web and to give unrestricted access does not put it in the public domain. Likewise, the lack of a copyright notice on a Web page does not put it in the public domain. Therefore, you should assume that copyright protects almost everything that you find on the Web.



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Message 1352568 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 21:08:33 UTC

100% spot on. Thanks Bernie.

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Message 1352582 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 21:42:42 UTC - in response to Message 1352539.

WRONG, how totally and utterly WRONG

Copyright is an absolute, that may waived or amended by a positive action by the copyright holder.
The fact that someone does not prevent hot-linking is not a sign that they permitting you to hot link to material on that site.

If someone posts an image with a copyright message, either as a watermark on the image, or as part of the page on which the image is hosted then someone is taking a positive step to say "DO NOT COPY, or HOT LINK this material". That is simply re-stating their rights.

A hot link does not make a copy. It isn't taking a screen shot. It isn't uploading the item to photobucket. It isn't printing it on paper. Making a copy is what copyright protects. The server that the link points to makes the copy, and that is presumably under the control of the copyright owner. If he doesn't want his server making copies, it is up to him to control this. If he allows it, he is giving permission for this copy.

In any case this has been decided at the Federal Appelate Court level. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inline_linking
Copyright law issues that inline linking raises

The most significant legal fact about inline linking, relative to copyright law considerations, is that the inline linker does not place a copy of the image file on its own Internet server. Rather, the inline linker places a pointer on its Internet server that points to the server on which the proprietor of the image has placed the image file. This pointer causes a user's browser to jump to the proprietor's server and fetch the image file to the user's computer. US courts have considered this a decisive fact in copyright analysis. Thus, in Perfect 10, Inc. v. Amazon.com, Inc.,[5] the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit explained why inline linking did not violate US copyright law:

Google does not...display a copy of full-size infringing photographic images for purposes of the Copyright Act when Google frames in-line linked images that appear on a user’s computer screen. Because Google’s computers do not store the photographic images, Google does not have a copy of the images for purposes of the Copyright Act. In other words, Google does not have any “material objects...in which a work is fixed...and from which the work can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated” and thus cannot communicate a copy. Instead of communicating a copy of the image, Google provides HTML instructions that direct a user’s browser to a website publisher’s computer that stores the full-size photographic image. Providing these HTML instructions is not equivalent to showing a copy. First, the HTML instructions are lines of text, not a photographic image. Second, HTML instructions do not themselves cause infringing images to appear on the user’s computer screen. The HTML merely gives the address of the image to the user’s browser. The browser then interacts with the computer that stores the infringing image. It is this interaction that causes an infringing image to appear on the user’s computer screen. Google may facilitate the user’s access to infringing images. However, such assistance raised only contributory liability issues and does not constitute direct infringement of the copyright owner’s display rights. ...While in-line linking and framing may cause some computer users to believe they are viewing a single Google webpage, the Copyright Act...does not protect a copyright holder against [such] acts..


I note the Ninth Circuit is where Seti is located, so this is the law!

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Message 1352590 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 21:54:19 UTC

That hits the nail on its head Gary.

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Message 1352592 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 21:56:46 UTC

This pointer causes a user's browser to jump to the proprietor's server and fetch the image file to the user's computer. US courts have considered this a decisive fact in copyright analysis.


Tel me does your browsers jump to the server



Can you see anywhere on this page where this picture is located. No you have to right click on the image to find out anything

This is a hotlink

http://daciagallery.com/artwork/janet-a-cook.php

I would still abide by the University of California advice.

PS the website I have used here I have the artists permission.
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Message 1352593 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 22:00:19 UTC

Headquartered in San Francisco, California, the Ninth Circuit is by far the largest of the thirteen courts of appeals, with 29 active judgeships.

So, what happens when the tenth or eleventh happens then? And even then it doesn't cover all the USA.

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Message 1352596 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 22:10:07 UTC - in response to Message 1352593.

Headquartered in San Francisco, California, the Ninth Circuit is by far the largest of the thirteen courts of appeals, with 29 active judgeships.

So, what happens when the tenth or eleventh happens then? And even then it doesn't cover all the USA.


It has happend where one court will in a similar case reach a different verdict. One reason why we have the US Supreme court.
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Message 1352609 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 22:42:44 UTC - in response to Message 1352596.

Headquartered in San Francisco, California, the Ninth Circuit is by far the largest of the thirteen courts of appeals, with 29 active judgeships.

So, what happens when the tenth or eleventh happens then? And even then it doesn't cover all the USA.


It has happend where one court will in a similar case reach a different verdict. One reason why we have the US Supreme court.

Yes we do. And until they say otherwise this is the law in the Ninth.

In Seti's case (the Regents of the University of California at Berkeley), the court of jurisdiction is located within the boundaries of the Ninth Circuit. (In the US generally you have to sue where the defendant is located or the act took place. One reason Delaware has so many Corporations there.)

Also you should complete the legal research and see if the case ever was appealed and Cert denied at SCOTUS. You would also see if the opinion is being cited in the other districts. This is what you pay lawyers to do.


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Message 1352611 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 22:46:19 UTC - in response to Message 1352592.

I would still abide by the University of California advice.

Obviously Seti, being an part of them would be required to or be kicked out. The Regents would also be free to establish a policy of discouraging hot linking.

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Message 1352648 - Posted: 1 Apr 2013, 3:10:50 UTC
Last modified: 1 Apr 2013, 3:13:01 UTC

I have been asked to remind the soon to be winner of TLPTPW to post "the rules" at the start of a new thread, and to pass the message on to the next winner. After scouring this thread >>and consolidating a few posts<< "the rules" seem to be.....

The Last Person To Post Wins thread, general rules:
1. Winner of the last thread starts the new one with a post of these rules.
2. Chooses a future event which triggers the winner, e.g. post number, date-time, and records it privately somehow (yellow sticky, etc.)
3. Everyone has fun posting until the target event is reached.
4. When the target is reached, old winner posts declaration of new winner and also PMs them.
5. Shortly after this a Mod will lock the recently won thread.
6. Go to 1.

Supplemental rules:
A. Multiple posting (the same poster posting two or more posts in succession) is frowned upon, and no element of a multiple posting may trigger the winning event.
B. However the winning event is defined it should probably take the lesser of 600 posts or two weeks to achieve.
C. Posting of larger pics is discouraged (Modem users do still exists, and these threads can get quite long.)
D. The post rules listed to the left of your post box are all enforced.

Is this OK?
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Message 1352681 - Posted: 1 Apr 2013, 7:23:11 UTC
Last modified: 1 Apr 2013, 7:23:38 UTC

TLTPW roolz -
Looks good to me.
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Message 1352686 - Posted: 1 Apr 2013, 7:39:27 UTC

The issue of copyright material is not as easy as Gary would have us believe.

In addition to the US law, upon which we have one guiding note applying to one sub-jurisdiction:
The poster is bound by their local jurisdiction, thus if their post is in breach of copyright in their country then they can be pursued by the legal system in that country.
The copyright holder has the right to legal protection under their own legal system from actions either by the individual (the poster) or other parties.

The most likely first step of any case would be a "take down" request from the copyright holder - we've had one very recently. Failure to comply with this request would probably then escalate to letter from their lawyer requesting the material to be "taken down" or legal action would be taken (each getting more strongly worded). Finally the "day in court", and all that entails, with appeals, counter appeals and lawyers running up costs on both sides.

Obviously it makes sense not to get into the situation where the lawyers get involved, and "take down" the material, and other similar material on receipt of the first "take down" request.

And unlike others who have run to "Wiki" or "Google" for their guidance mine has come from a lawyer. When I was pursuing someone for breach of copyright on my own material. I am glad to say that the first letter got the desired result, at which time the legal advise had only cost me a decent meal, not the thousands of pounds a court case would have.
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Message 1352724 - Posted: 1 Apr 2013, 10:16:07 UTC

I support and endorse the LPTPW rues as listed here, however can I suggest that supplemental rule A needs expanding upon. If a multiple posting covers the target number, and is not allowed, then should it be the previous poster that wins, or the next poster? i.e. If the number is 500, I post 498, someone posts 499,500,501, then Rob posts 502. Do I win or Rob?

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Message 1352736 - Posted: 1 Apr 2013, 10:38:32 UTC


Now if it were Julie I would bow out gracefully and allow the lady to take the reins, but you it would be pistols at dawn...
(if I could find my pistols that is)
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Message 1352763 - Posted: 1 Apr 2013, 11:41:17 UTC

I say my good Sir, forsooth, fifthsooth even, have a care, that is fighting talk if I might make so bold. May I request the name of your second if you please.



Then again, buy me enough London Pride and I won't care who wins :-)

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Message 1352792 - Posted: 1 Apr 2013, 12:15:51 UTC

Done :-)


So long as you buy me one next time around
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Message 1352799 - Posted: 1 Apr 2013, 12:30:06 UTC

Deal! :-)



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Message 1352811 - Posted: 1 Apr 2013, 12:51:29 UTC - in response to Message 1352724.

I support and endorse the LPTPW rues as listed here, however can I suggest that supplemental rule A needs expanding upon. If a multiple posting covers the target number, and is not allowed, then should it be the previous poster that wins, or the next poster? i.e. If the number is 500, I post 498, someone posts 499,500,501, then Rob posts 502. Do I win or Rob?

As written it must be the first nonmultiple post after the event, because "no element of a multiple posting may trigger the winning event". [This was not worded lightly.]

But supplementaray B should say "However the winning event is defined it should probably take less than 600 posts AND less than two weeks to achieve". [Obviously I was getting tired by then.]
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Message 1352813 - Posted: 1 Apr 2013, 12:53:20 UTC - in response to Message 1352648.

I have been asked to remind the soon to be winner of TLPTPW to post "the rules" at the start of a new thread, and to pass the message on to the next winner. After scouring this thread >>and consolidating a few posts<< "the rules" seem to be.....

The Last Person To Post Wins thread, general rules:
1. Winner of the last thread starts the new one with a post of these rules.
2. Chooses a future event which triggers the winner, e.g. post number, date-time, and records it privately somehow (yellow sticky, etc.)
3. Everyone has fun posting until the target event is reached.
4. When the target is reached, old winner posts declaration of new winner and also PMs them.
5. Shortly after this a Mod will lock the recently won thread.
6. Go to 1.

Supplemental rules:
A. Multiple posting (the same poster posting two or more posts in succession) is frowned upon, and no element of a multiple posting may trigger the winning event.
B. However the winning event is defined it should probably take the lesser of 600 posts or two weeks to achieve.
C. Posting of larger pics is discouraged (Modem users do still exists, and these threads can get quite long.)
D. The post rules listed to the left of your post box are all enforced.

Is this OK?

I would add no clearly copyrighted pictures.
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Message 1352824 - Posted: 1 Apr 2013, 13:41:04 UTC
Last modified: 1 Apr 2013, 13:41:17 UTC

Well my TLPTPW has a winner, and I've posted the rules (including the admonition against copyrighted pics) at the end with a request to the winner to copy them to the beginning of the next thread and to pass it on.
I guess I'm done.
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