Discussion of Cafe games #5


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msattler
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Message 1352225 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 19:28:44 UTC - in response to Message 1352222.

I hear what you are saying Mark and fair comment. But Seti is funded by the University of California, Berkeley, therefore it has to be absolutely 100% squeaky clean. Particularly as it's boards and forums are publicly and freely viewable. Isn't the way forward here to simply have some other Cafe Game, or games, that can be enjoyed by Setizens, perhaps involving a bit more intellect, and less reliance upon search engines to find pictures.

I don't play the games much anyway, so it does not really affect me that much. The pics I post are few and far between, usually in the caption thread.

I guess it's up to the legalistas at Berk to determine if somehow reposting a single copy of a picture posted elsewhere on the internet for no profit, gain, or claim falls under fair use.


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Message 1352230 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 19:47:39 UTC

Its not just protecting U.C. Berkley but maybe also the poster of said copyrighted pics. Not saying it could happen but you could find an E-mail claiming you have posted x-amount of my material you owe me x-amout of dollars.

Yes a not likely scenario but hey there are folks out there who go after violators.
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Message 1352232 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 19:48:23 UTC

I came by chance upon a discussion about copyright and the new way Google displays pictures, you are able to see the full size picture without going to the website concerned, artists and photographers were up in arms because this meant less people were visiting their sites and therefore not seeing the copyright notices. They had not put copyright notices on because all you could see before was a thumbnail.
So in a nutshell it is probably safer to avoid photos and paintings unless you are sure it is OK.

I liked the thread, I used to enjoy searching Google and I always tried to find unusual pictures but am obviously of low intellect.

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Message 1352234 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 20:03:47 UTC - in response to Message 1352217.

The statute of limitation for copyright is defined in some jurisdictions by a period of time after the death of the copyright owner, unless it is extended by the estate. Which makes it very hard to see, just by looking at the date of a picture, if it is in copyright.

Except for corporations, which obviously don't die.

And remember, the jurisdiction that applies is that of the copyright holder, not the country in which the poster lives, or where the servers are hosted....

Partly. However it the copyright owner registers it in another country then that set of laws also covers the work.

Until the hair has been split ten ways you haven't begun to understand copyright ...

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Message 1352236 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 20:06:39 UTC - in response to Message 1352216.

I would think that fair use would cover the posting of pics in a public forum for the sole purposes of playing a game.

Your Honor, this "game" obviously adds value to the "store." As such the use of our copyrighted material can in no way be considered fair use ...


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Message 1352238 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 20:16:47 UTC - in response to Message 1352230.

Its not just protecting U.C. Berkley but maybe also the poster of said copyrighted pics. Not saying it could happen but you could find an E-mail claiming you have posted x-amount of my material you owe me x-amout of dollars.

Yes a not likely scenario but hey there are folks out there who go after violators.

First though you have to make a copy of the material. Posting a link is not making a copy.

Other than avatars and the profile pages I thought it was impossible to post anything except text. (Except Eric, Matt, Jeff)

However I am very concerned this proactive approach may have forever lost the UC Regents the ability to claim in court that they are a 3rd party ISP and can not be sued for content posted by others on their site. (Don't forget the Seti computers are the legal property of the Regents. Don't know if there is a lease agreement or what that allows Seti to use them. More hairs to be split.) But by acting without specific complaint the can of worms is open that every post will have to be approved by a moderator before it can appear.

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Message 1352239 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 20:20:07 UTC

I'm sorry to say, but the American view does not apply throughout the World, indeed some countries actually see the USA as a "leaky sieve" in the area of copyright. There are an immense number of hairs to be split, and lawyers to be paid - and that's where the numb of the matter is. Do you want to see S@H taken down while the lawyers argue and fill their wallets?
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Message 1352241 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 20:26:36 UTC

Isn't the whole point here that whatever pictures were posted, they were done so in pure innocence, with no intention by anyone of flouting any rules. As of now we are AOK. But we need to take advice as to the way forward.

It is a tortuous and litigatious world we live in Ladies & Gents, we just have to accept that, and react sensibly and accordingly.



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Message 1352242 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 20:28:19 UTC

We did have an onwer of a sight E-mail us saying if his posts were used hotlinking or not you must buy a liscense. Thats why all this has happend.
I dont care what wiki says about hotlinking. IM rather dubious of them anyway.

We wait and see what legal says.


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Message 1352244 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 20:31:29 UTC

+1

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Message 1352247 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 21:33:40 UTC - in response to Message 1352242.

We wait and see what legal says.

Legal says. That is what should have been waited for before any action or inaction, now you have a fait accompli.


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Message 1352251 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 21:37:46 UTC - in response to Message 1352247.

We wait and see what legal says.

Legal says. That is what should have been waited for before any action or inaction, now you have a fait accompli.


Go back to the cafe posts from 2006 and see all the hidden posts for copyright violations. And the bannishments for posting them. The cat was out of the bag 7 years ago.
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Message 1352257 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 22:09:00 UTC

The thing is you don't know how someone will react seeing their images on another site. Some may like the extra attention (possible sales), others will see it as copyright infringement and go straight to the layers, not even bothering with an e-mail to us saying that they don't want their images appearing on the forums and could we please remove them.

Then there also a bandwidth issue. Hotlinking is using their bandwidth in showing the images here, we don't know what their penalties/costs are if they use more than X a month.
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Profile Gary Charpentier
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Message 1352286 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 1:00:36 UTC - in response to Message 1352257.

The thing is you don't know how someone will react seeing their images on another site.

Ah, but they aren't on another site, they are on their own site, even if they are too stupid to realize it.
Some may like the extra attention (possible sales), others will see it as copyright infringement and go straight to the layers, not even bothering with an e-mail to us saying that they don't want their images appearing on the forums and could we please remove them.

Well, then they lose by default, at least against the Regents. They first have to send a DMCA notice, or the court won't hear the case. Oh and if they expect to collect damages they will have to use US Federal Court.

Then there also a bandwidth issue. Hotlinking is using their bandwidth in showing the images here, we don't know what their penalties/costs are if they use more than X a month.

Which is entirely within their control. Just use htaccess If their IT people are so dumb they don't know it is there ... Well that would be like getting mad at spiders because you don't have a robots.txt file ...

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Message 1352290 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 1:16:40 UTC - in response to Message 1352286.

The thing is you don't know how someone will react seeing their images on another site.

Ah, but they aren't on another site, they are on their own site, even if they are too stupid to realize it.
Some may like the extra attention (possible sales), others will see it as copyright infringement and go straight to the layers, not even bothering with an e-mail to us saying that they don't want their images appearing on the forums and could we please remove them.

Well, then they lose by default, at least against the Regents. They first have to send a DMCA notice, or the court won't hear the case. Oh and if they expect to collect damages they will have to use US Federal Court.

Then there also a bandwidth issue. Hotlinking is using their bandwidth in showing the images here, we don't know what their penalties/costs are if they use more than X a month.

Which is entirely within their control. Just use htaccess If their IT people are so dumb they don't know it is there ... Well that would be like getting mad at spiders because you don't have a robots.txt file ...

If I'm not mistaken the Berkeley fellas have done the robots thing and yet google turns up results from here.
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Message 1352299 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 1:58:33 UTC - in response to Message 1352290.
Last modified: 31 Mar 2013, 2:05:38 UTC

If I'm not mistaken the Berkeley fellas have done the robots thing and yet google turns up results from here.

Don't see forum_thread.php being disallowed ...
User-agent: * Disallow: /account Disallow: /add_venue Disallow: /am_ Disallow: /bug_report Disallow: /edit_ Disallow: /host_ Disallow: /hosts_ Disallow: /prefs_ Disallow: /result Disallow: /team Disallow: /workunit Disallow: /cgi-bin Disallow: /show_ Disallow: /profile_ Disallow: /team_ Disallow: /ntpckr.php Disallow: /~aparsons/guitar/guitar.py.cgi Disallow: /sah/ Disallow: /beta/account Disallow: /beta/add_venue Disallow: /beta/am_ Disallow: /beta/bug_report Disallow: /beta/edit_ Disallow: /beta/host_ Disallow: /beta/hosts_ Disallow: /beta/prefs_ Disallow: /beta/result Disallow: /beta/team Disallow: /beta/workunit Disallow: /beta/cgi-bin Disallow: /beta/show_ Disallow: /beta/profile_ Disallow: /beta/team_ Disallow: /beta//

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Message 1352379 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 9:11:57 UTC

Just me 2 penn'orth before the 3 day outage which will give people time to think. I feel the mods are being unfairly castigated here for hiding copyrighted posts. In this game you can either be reactive or proactive, and I think they took the decision to carry out a damage limitation exercise in advance, in case it all got a bit heavy. I would have done the same. It has bought us some time until we get a ruling from the legal dept, upon which we can then react accordingly.

I don't think Seti would actually get sued, as it is pretty obvious that no pecuniary gain has resulted. If someone was to post hey, neat pic, it's now my desktop or something similar, that might be a different matter. Also if this was a private forum not open to public access, I don't think copyright owners would be quite so iffy about their pics being used. But if you earn your living as a professional photographer and realise that your work could be being downloaded thousands of times a day all over the world for free, you might well feel hard done by, even if it was on the internet in the first place. It isn't that difficult to code a web page so that the right click function to view/copy/download a picture is disabled. Ok you can always use print screen and paste it into a photopackage but you won't get the quality. It is up to all owners of graphics, artwork, pictures, to clearly state that Copyright is reserved, and that prior agreement is required to reproduce it elsewhere. In books you often see "Image by kind permission of ..."

This all started because of the count to thread, which once we got to over 5000 or so was pretty much restricted to having to use part numbers and locomotives. And anyway it isn't exactly the hardest thing in the world to use Google to search for a number, to be honest it ran out of steam some time ago (pun intended). Clearly there is enough interest here to run games, and I'm sure we can find ideas for a replacement that would hold peoples attention and contain an element of skill.

P.S. What about the pics in the mystery kitchen tool thread? They are nearly all from manufacturers websites. Are they happy with free advertising or not. Dunno.

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Message 1352476 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 15:33:52 UTC - in response to Message 1352379.

It is up to all owners of graphics, artwork, pictures, to clearly state that Copyright is reserved, and that prior agreement is required to reproduce it elsewhere.

It is not legally necessary for them to put the notice on the image itself, or anywhere really. Copyright is automatic as soon as the image is created. Posting a notice just makes it easier to prove your case in court.

Among the railfan community, a lot of guys who wouldn't think twice about downloading someone else's picture, even when there's a clear statement that they can't, suddenly get all snippy when they post their own pictures and then find that someone else has downloaded them, cropped off the watermarked copyright notice, and posted them as their own.

This all started because of the count to thread, which once we got to over 5000 or so was pretty much restricted to having to use part numbers and locomotives.

And sunspots.

P.S. What about the pics in the mystery kitchen tool thread? They are nearly all from manufacturers websites. Are they happy with free advertising or not. Dunno.

They might (I said might) not mind if we post a link to the site, at least at the end of the game, but we often don't.

There have been a lot of pictures posted in other threads lately, too.

The rule of thumb I use when I want to use a picture is twofold: 1. Do I have cause to call my use "fair use?" (My non-expert opinion is that, generally, we don't in these forums.) 2. Does the site specifically say I can use it? If the answer to either of those is yes, I'm okay.

(No, I haven't always used this rule when posting here, but I'm at least thinking about it.)

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Message 1352515 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 17:33:53 UTC - in response to Message 1352476.

2. Does the site specifically say I can use it? If the answer to either of those is yes, I'm okay.

If their site disables hot linking, then it is obvious they don't want their pictures spread about. If they leave it enabled, that is free permission to pass it about.

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Message 1352539 - Posted: 31 Mar 2013, 19:36:33 UTC

WRONG, how totally and utterly WRONG

Copyright is an absolute, that may waived or amended by a positive action by the copyright holder.
The fact that someone does not prevent hot-linking is not a sign that they permitting you to hot link to material on that site.

If someone posts an image with a copyright message, either as a watermark on the image, or as part of the page on which the image is hosted then someone is taking a positive step to say "DO NOT COPY, or HOT LINK this material". That is simply re-stating their rights.

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