Discussion of Cafe games #5

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Message 1352185 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 17:56:09 UTC

The rule we are working to is:
If the picture has an obvious copyright logo, or message, then its not permitted, otherwise its OK until we are told otherwise.

Do not forget that some sites attach the message when the picture is linked to in isolation (that is, not called from the hosting site), so check a couple of minute after posting to make sure it is clear.
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Message 1352188 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 18:01:06 UTC

I do apoligise for the email/PM bomb some of you will be geting,
hiding the whole thread is the quickest way,
hiding each photo individualy would have taken days to do and been much worse than it is.
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Message 1352192 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 18:08:44 UTC - in response to Message 1352180.  

Looks like all pictures are banned. After all, 100% of pictures are copyrighted. I think a more sensible action would be to disable the [ img ] tag and be done with the problem.

Well not pictures you have taken yourself, I believe that if you are in a public place all self shot photos belong to you. So in theory you can post them anywhere, and I do.
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Message 1352193 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 18:11:24 UTC - in response to Message 1352191.  

No apologies necessary Clive. The thread had become boring long ago with picture after picture of locomotives. Let's just scrap the whole thing and find another game that is more intellectually challenging than just using google.

Might have been nice to have been told in advance. I was not expecting 22 "Thread Closed" emails
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Message 1352198 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 18:17:12 UTC - in response to Message 1352185.  

Do not forget that some sites attach the message when the picture is linked to in isolation (that is, not called from the hosting site), so check a couple of minute after posting to make sure it is clear.

The complaining site should be told to change its htaccess file so that they don't serve up the photo in the first place. Then copyrighted photos come up as a empty box.

Otherwise the Berne Convention needs to be strictly enforced. Every photo, drawing, gif, avatar, weather bug, signature credit listing, is copyrighted. The copyright exists upon being fixed in a tangible media. A notice does not have to accompany the item for the copyright to be valid and enforceable.


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Message 1352205 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 18:25:59 UTC - in response to Message 1352180.  

No, only copyrighted pictures for which there is no permission or other relevant justification need to be banned. Examples which are OK include:

  • pictures created by the poster which do not themselves contain copyrighted material (many posted by The Holy Hand Grenade for example)
  • pictures for which the poster or seti@home has the relevant permission (some created by my brother-in-law and posted by myself for example)
  • pictures from Wikimedia Commons, with a link back to their information page (as in recent Whiskey's Minicity threads for example)
  • pictures clearly out of copyright because of their age


For an introduction to some of the issues, you could have a look at Licencing on Wikimedia Commons.

There are also provisions under copyright law for "fair use" which would cover restricted use for commentary, satire etc, and for graphics with minimal original content, but these like many other aspects of copyright law are cans of worms.

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Message 1352207 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 18:29:36 UTC - in response to Message 1352205.  
Last modified: 30 Mar 2013, 18:30:48 UTC

No, only copyrighted pictures for which there is no permission or other relevant justification need to be banned. Examples which are OK include:

  • pictures created by the poster which do not themselves contain copyrighted material (many posted by The Holy Hand Grenade for example)
  • pictures for which the poster or seti@home has the relevant permission (some created by my brother-in-law and posted by myself for example)
  • pictures from Wikimedia Commons, with a link back to their information page (as in recent Whiskey's Minicity threads for example)
  • pictures clearly out of copyright because of their age


For an introduction to some of the issues, you could have a look at Licencing on Wikimedia Commons.

There are also provisions under copyright law for "fair use" which would cover restricted use for commentary, satire etc, and for graphics with minimal original content, but these like many other aspects of copyright law are cans of worms.


Which is why we will wait for the legal staff to decide, Not wikianything. If i have a legal issue i would talk to a lawyer in the field I need, Not go to Wiki.
[/quote]

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Message 1352216 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 19:09:41 UTC
Last modified: 30 Mar 2013, 19:11:50 UTC

Just my 2 cents.....
Which may or may not be legally binding or correct.

I think this whole copyright issue is much ado over nothing.
I would think that fair use would cover the posting of pics in a public forum for the sole purposes of playing a game.

Nobody is using them for profit, advertising, or any other commercial purpose. Nobody is making multiple copies and posting them all over the net. Nobody, except in certain cases, is claiming the pictures are their property.

In fact, many of them are watermarked with the source.
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1352217 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 19:11:38 UTC

The statute of limitation for copyright is defined in some jurisdictions by a period of time after the death of the copyright owner, unless it is extended by the estate. Which makes it very hard to see, just by looking at the date of a picture, if it is in copyright.
And remember, the jurisdiction that applies is that of the copyright holder, not the country in which the poster lives, or where the servers are hosted....
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Message 1352225 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 19:28:44 UTC - in response to Message 1352222.  

I hear what you are saying Mark and fair comment. But Seti is funded by the University of California, Berkeley, therefore it has to be absolutely 100% squeaky clean. Particularly as it's boards and forums are publicly and freely viewable. Isn't the way forward here to simply have some other Cafe Game, or games, that can be enjoyed by Setizens, perhaps involving a bit more intellect, and less reliance upon search engines to find pictures.

I don't play the games much anyway, so it does not really affect me that much. The pics I post are few and far between, usually in the caption thread.

I guess it's up to the legalistas at Berk to determine if somehow reposting a single copy of a picture posted elsewhere on the internet for no profit, gain, or claim falls under fair use.


"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1352230 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 19:47:39 UTC

Its not just protecting U.C. Berkley but maybe also the poster of said copyrighted pics. Not saying it could happen but you could find an E-mail claiming you have posted x-amount of my material you owe me x-amout of dollars.

Yes a not likely scenario but hey there are folks out there who go after violators.
[/quote]

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Message 1352232 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 19:48:23 UTC

I came by chance upon a discussion about copyright and the new way Google displays pictures, you are able to see the full size picture without going to the website concerned, artists and photographers were up in arms because this meant less people were visiting their sites and therefore not seeing the copyright notices. They had not put copyright notices on because all you could see before was a thumbnail.
So in a nutshell it is probably safer to avoid photos and paintings unless you are sure it is OK.

I liked the thread, I used to enjoy searching Google and I always tried to find unusual pictures but am obviously of low intellect.

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Message 1352234 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 20:03:47 UTC - in response to Message 1352217.  

The statute of limitation for copyright is defined in some jurisdictions by a period of time after the death of the copyright owner, unless it is extended by the estate. Which makes it very hard to see, just by looking at the date of a picture, if it is in copyright.

Except for corporations, which obviously don't die.

And remember, the jurisdiction that applies is that of the copyright holder, not the country in which the poster lives, or where the servers are hosted....

Partly. However it the copyright owner registers it in another country then that set of laws also covers the work.

Until the hair has been split ten ways you haven't begun to understand copyright ...

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Message 1352236 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 20:06:39 UTC - in response to Message 1352216.  

I would think that fair use would cover the posting of pics in a public forum for the sole purposes of playing a game.

Your Honor, this "game" obviously adds value to the "store." As such the use of our copyrighted material can in no way be considered fair use ...


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Message 1352238 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 20:16:47 UTC - in response to Message 1352230.  

Its not just protecting U.C. Berkley but maybe also the poster of said copyrighted pics. Not saying it could happen but you could find an E-mail claiming you have posted x-amount of my material you owe me x-amout of dollars.

Yes a not likely scenario but hey there are folks out there who go after violators.

First though you have to make a copy of the material. Posting a link is not making a copy.

Other than avatars and the profile pages I thought it was impossible to post anything except text. (Except Eric, Matt, Jeff)

However I am very concerned this proactive approach may have forever lost the UC Regents the ability to claim in court that they are a 3rd party ISP and can not be sued for content posted by others on their site. (Don't forget the Seti computers are the legal property of the Regents. Don't know if there is a lease agreement or what that allows Seti to use them. More hairs to be split.) But by acting without specific complaint the can of worms is open that every post will have to be approved by a moderator before it can appear.

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Message 1352239 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 20:20:07 UTC

I'm sorry to say, but the American view does not apply throughout the World, indeed some countries actually see the USA as a "leaky sieve" in the area of copyright. There are an immense number of hairs to be split, and lawyers to be paid - and that's where the numb of the matter is. Do you want to see S@H taken down while the lawyers argue and fill their wallets?
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Message 1352242 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 20:28:19 UTC

We did have an onwer of a sight E-mail us saying if his posts were used hotlinking or not you must buy a liscense. Thats why all this has happend.
I dont care what wiki says about hotlinking. IM rather dubious of them anyway.

We wait and see what legal says.


[/quote]

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Message 1352247 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 21:33:40 UTC - in response to Message 1352242.  

We wait and see what legal says.

Legal says. That is what should have been waited for before any action or inaction, now you have a fait accompli.


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Message 1352251 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 21:37:46 UTC - in response to Message 1352247.  

We wait and see what legal says.

Legal says. That is what should have been waited for before any action or inaction, now you have a fait accompli.


Go back to the cafe posts from 2006 and see all the hidden posts for copyright violations. And the bannishments for posting them. The cat was out of the bag 7 years ago.
[/quote]

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Message 1352257 - Posted: 30 Mar 2013, 22:09:00 UTC

The thing is you don't know how someone will react seeing their images on another site. Some may like the extra attention (possible sales), others will see it as copyright infringement and go straight to the layers, not even bothering with an e-mail to us saying that they don't want their images appearing on the forums and could we please remove them.

Then there also a bandwidth issue. Hotlinking is using their bandwidth in showing the images here, we don't know what their penalties/costs are if they use more than X a month.

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