The very fact that no one at any point thought to tell him before he went on TV that the shirt wasn't the best way to represent Science, says an awful lot about the culture in science research.

No, it says that science is so neglected by the press that no one even knows how they are supposed to act look talk when they go on TV because it never happens.

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....Women scientists get their views ignored, their research stolen and they are often marginalised and not taken seriously. How's that for a working environment?

Do you think that this only happens to female scientists ? It's part of the "working environment" and happens to junior male scientists as well.

Perhaps the most infamous case is the way Fleming stole the credit for the discovery of Penicillin when his only contribution was a one line entry in his notebook 20 years previously. He contributed absolutely nothing to the research that brought it to a working drug yet jumped up at the very end to claim the Nobel Prize. As for being ignored, the theory of Plate Tectonics was around for 10 years before it became accepted by the Geological community.

The problem is the "Old Guard" doesn't like being threatened by the "New Guard". When a new theory or new research threatens the work they've built their reputations on, the reaction is to "circle the wagons" to protect their reputations. Just how much of the research work in the laboratory is done by undergraduates while the Senior Scientist gets all the credit ? Gender either way is largely irrelevant, female senior scientists are just as capable of dirty tricks as their male compatriots.

So many so called "women's issues" are actually "life issues" that effect both genders equally. It just that when they happen to a man, he doesn't have a powerful and vociferous lobby group to back him up. Women have to understand that true "equality" means an equal right to be skewered by those higher up the food chain.

T.A.

....Women scientists get their views ignored, their research stolen and they are often marginalised and not taken seriously. How's that for a working environment?

Do you think that this only happens to female scientists ? It's part of the "working environment" and happens to junior male scientists as well.

Perhaps the most infamous case is the way Fleming stole the credit for the discovery of Penicillin when his only contribution was a one line entry in his notebook 20 years previously. He contributed absolutely nothing to the research that brought it to a working drug yet jumped up at the very end to claim the Nobel Prize. As for being ignored, the theory of Plate Tectonics was around for 10 years before it became accepted by the Geological community.

The problem is the "Old Guard" doesn't like being threatened by the "New Guard". When a new theory or new research threatens the work they've built their reputations on, the reaction is to "circle the wagons" to protect their reputations. Just how much of the research work in the laboratory is done by undergraduates while the Senior Scientist gets all the credit ? Gender either way is largely irrelevant, female senior scientists are just as capable of dirty tricks as their male compatriots.

So many so called "women's issues" are actually "life issues" that effect both genders equally. It just that when they happen to a man, he doesn't have a powerful and vociferous lobby group to back him up. Women have to understand that true "equality" means an equal right to be skewered by those higher up the food chain.

T.A.

Are you f**king kidding me? Can you even see what you are writing?

I give up. Why don't you go somewhere else and tell black people how good they have it. I'm not wasting any more time on you.

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Reality Internet Personality

Are you f**king kidding me? Can you even see what you are writing?

Not my fault if your prejudices blur your vision :)

I give up. Why don't you go somewhere else and tell black people how good they have it.

I'm not saying women have it "good". What I am pointing out is, that despite what you think, the grass is really no greener on the other side of the fence....

And if you think that a white female university graduate is as disadvantaged as the average black person.... (rest of comment self censored).

T.A.

Do you think that this only happens to female scientists ? It's part of the "working environment" and happens to junior male scientists as well.

Yep it happens to guys when they start out in science, but once they have stuck around long enough and build up a reputation, its over. Women on the other can stick around as long as they want, but it will keep happening to them over and over again.

But hey, according to you its a life issue, affecting both genders equally.

Do you think that this only happens to female scientists ? It's part of the "working environment" and happens to junior male scientists as well.

Yep it happens to guys when they start out in science, but once they have stuck around long enough and build up a reputation, its over. Women on the other can stick around as long as they want, but it will keep happening to them over and over again.

But hey, according to you its a life issue, affecting both genders equally.

That post is so pathetic in its naivety I will not even attempt to rebut it.

All I can say is that you obviously make no attempt to keep up to date with what is happening in the scientific world. From Astronomy to Zoology women scientists are making names for themselves. Maybe you should watch a few more Science programs on TV.

T.A.

Do you think that this only happens to female scientists ? It's part of the "working environment" and happens to junior male scientists as well.

Yep it happens to guys when they start out in science, but once they have stuck around long enough and build up a reputation, its over. Women on the other can stick around as long as they want, but it will keep happening to them over and over again.

But hey, according to you its a life issue, affecting both genders equally.

That post is so pathetic in its naivety I will not even attempt to rebut it.

All I can say is that you obviously make no attempt to keep up to date with what is happening in the scientific world. From Astronomy to Zoology women scientists are making names for themselves. Maybe you should watch a few more Science programs on TV.

T.A.

A lot of them seem to hosted by a very popular black astrophysicist. I guess by your own example, that means that black people face no prejudice either.

I am afraid it is you that is naive because you are unwilling to listen to the very people that are trying to tell you there is a problem. Ask any of those women you speak about what it is like to be a woman in science and I'd be very surprised if any of them would say that had it just as hard as their male colleagues. However, even if they did tell you that (which a lot of women did when they complained about the shirt) you don't want to hear it.

If you valued the opinion of women in science you actually listen to us when we tell you there is problem.

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Reality Internet Personality

About time it was taken seriously

"There were 75 live criminal investigations at the moment into child exploitation in the West Midlands and a further 210 cases were being looked into, the council said."

That's just one council & how many in Britain?

Nice one UK!(Sorry Yanks)

In appropriate shirts or http://www.dw.de/watershed-moment-for-egypts-fgm-ban/a-18074456

Sohair el-Batea died after her father took her to a rural Egyptian doctor to have her genitals cut. The two men are the first to go on trial under Egypt's FGM ban, which could be a turning point. Kristen McTighe reports.
...
And for Eltahawy, it is what she calls "society's desire to control female sexuality" that needs to be addressed.

"What we need to confront in Egypt is our obsession with female virginity, because this is ultimately what FGM is about," she said. "FGM is a way that families control their girls' sex drives, and a way for society to control women's sexuality, and unless the conversation about FGM is carried out within those parameters, we stand no chance of eradicating it."

"You can have all the court cases you want and people will still do it, because they don't believe women have the right to sexual pleasure," she said.

Which should gather more attention?

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In appropriate shirts or http://www.dw.de/watershed-moment-for-egypts-fgm-ban/a-18074456

Sohair el-Batea died after her father took her to a rural Egyptian doctor to have her genitals cut. The two men are the first to go on trial under Egypt's FGM ban, which could be a turning point. Kristen McTighe reports.
...
And for Eltahawy, it is what she calls "society's desire to control female sexuality" that needs to be addressed.

"What we need to confront in Egypt is our obsession with female virginity, because this is ultimately what FGM is about," she said. "FGM is a way that families control their girls' sex drives, and a way for society to control women's sexuality, and unless the conversation about FGM is carried out within those parameters, we stand no chance of eradicating it."

"You can have all the court cases you want and people will still do it, because they don't believe women have the right to sexual pleasure," she said.

Which should gather more attention?

Ahhhh..the "stop thief" approach.

My son asked this question and I told him a little story.

For 25 years a war was raging in Northern Ireland. People were dying in horrible ways. No one could deny that the "troubles" as they were called were the biggest problem facing the people there and it deserved the biggest attention.

Child sex abuse was rife for this very reason, because those that complained were told that they shouldn't rock the boat as there were bigger problems.

Now I am not saying that shirtgate is on this level, but I am saying that because you speak out against one problem, it doesn't invalidate another.

You can speak out against both...and I am quite sure that genital mutilation gets more attention in the certain circles as it should.

However, we are talking on a physics forum about a problem in physics, so this is the absolutely the most perfect and appropriate place to be having this discussion...and it doesn't mean that we don't care about other problems and by saying that what you are saying is "don't make a fuss, because really, we actually like it this way"

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Reality Internet Personality

Maybe you should watch a few more Science programs on TV.

You get your science from tv? Heh, that clarifies a lot.

That post is so pathetic in its naivety I will not even attempt to rebut it.

All I can say is that you obviously make no attempt to keep up to date with what is happening in the scientific world. From Astronomy to Zoology women scientists are making names for themselves. Maybe you should watch a few more Science programs on TV.

T.A.

Maybe you should read some Gillian McKeith books, they should be about your level.

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Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

I am afraid it is you that is naive because you are unwilling to listen to the very people that are trying to tell you there is a problem. Ask any of those women you speak about what it is like to be a woman in science and I'd be very surprised if any of them would say that had it just as hard as their male colleagues. However, even if they did tell you that (which a lot of women did when they complained about the shirt) you don't want to hear it.

There is only ONE person beating the drum here and that is you. A couple of others have come in with snide comments on the side but nothing that contributes anything to the debate.

If you valued the opinion of women in science you actually listen to us when we tell you there is problem.

Like any good scientist I would not make a statement without doing my research, and of the THREE women scientists I know personally, NONE of them feels they have been in anyway belittled, degraded or discriminated against by their male colleagues (or the shirt), nor have they noticed any "discrimination" against other female scientists in their laboratories. These opinions were delivered verbally, thus were not limited to 145 characters.

I also note your second attempt to compare the "plight" of women scientists to that of Black People. To me, this just indicates you have run out of ideas and are grasping at straws to make a point. It is a totally invalid comparison, reeks of paranoia, and does nothing for your credibility.

T.A.

I am afraid it is you that is naive because you are unwilling to listen to the very people that are trying to tell you there is a problem. Ask any of those women you speak about what it is like to be a woman in science and I'd be very surprised if any of them would say that had it just as hard as their male colleagues. However, even if they did tell you that (which a lot of women did when they complained about the shirt) you don't want to hear it.

There is only ONE person beating the drum here and that is you. A couple of others have come in with snide comments on the side but nothing that contributes anything to the debate.

If you valued the opinion of women in science you actually listen to us when we tell you there is problem.

Like any good scientist I would not make a statement without doing my research, and of the THREE women scientists I know personally, NONE of them feels they have been in anyway belittled, degraded or discriminated against by their male colleagues (or the shirt), nor have they noticed any "discrimination" against other female scientists in their laboratories. These opinions were delivered verbally, thus were not limited to 145 characters.

I also note your second attempt to compare the "plight" of women scientists to that of Black People. To me, this just indicates you have run out of ideas and are grasping at straws to make a point. It is a totally invalid comparison, reeks of paranoia, and does nothing for your credibility.

T.A.

It is impossible to have a debate with an entrenched misogynist. My two cents as an elderly female who has dealt with this crap from a very early age.

It is impossible to have a debate with an entrenched misogynist.....

Even harder to have one with an entrenched misandrist...

If this thread took place 20 years ago, the gap between Es and I would be nowhere near as great. There probably would have even been a lot of points we agreed on, but the world has changed a lot since then.

T.A.

P.S. I was wondering when someone would play the "M" card. :P

AAS Issues Statement on "Shirtgate"/"Shirtstorm"
Thursday, November 20, 2014 - 08:54


"The following statement was issued on 19 November 2014 by the Executive Committee of the American Astronomical Society on behalf of the AAS Council:

The past few days have seen extensive international discussion of an incident (known online as #shirtstorm or #shirtgate) in which a participant in a European Space Agency media conference wore a shirt with sexualized images of gun-toting women and made an unfortunate remark comparing the featured spacecraft to a woman. Viewers responded critically to these inappropriate statements, especially jarring in such a highly visible setting (one in which very few women appeared), and the scientist apologized sincerely. But in the meantime, unacceptable abuse has been directed toward the critics, from criticism of "over-active feminism" to personal insults and more dire threats.

We wish to express our support for members of the community who rightly brought this issue to the fore, and we condemn the unreasonable attacks they experienced as a result, which caused deep distress in our community. We do appreciate the scientist’s sincere and unqualified apology.

The AAS has a clear anti-harassment policy, which prohibits "verbal comments or physical actions of a sexual nature” and “a display of sexually suggestive objects or pictures." Had the offending images appeared and comments been made under the auspices of the AAS, they would be in clear violation of our policy.

We also note the important sentiments that preface the policy:

As a professional society, the AAS must provide an environment that encourages the free expression and exchange of scientific ideas. In pursuit of that environment, the AAS is committed to the philosophy of equality of opportunity and treatment for all members, regardless of gender, gender identity or expression, race, color, national or ethnic origin, religion or religious belief, age, marital status, sexual orientation, disabilities, veteran status, or any other reason not related to scientific merit. All functions of the Society must be conducted in a professional atmosphere in which all participants are treated with courtesy and respect…

The AAS Council reaffirms the importance of the Society’s anti-harassment policy to our mission to enhance and share humanity’s scientific understanding of the universe. Only when all astronomers feel welcome and supported in the profession can our discipline realize its full potential for excellence."

I think that about covers it.

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Reality Internet Personality

It is impossible to have a debate with an entrenched misogynist.....

Even harder to have one with an entrenched misandrist...

...

Some of us are born misandrist, some of us achieve misandry and some of us, after trying to reason with you, have misandry thrust upon us.

Its starting to feel like the rational choice.

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Reality Internet Personality

It is impossible to have a debate with an entrenched misogynist.....

Even harder to have one with an entrenched misandrist...

...

Some of us are born misandrist, some of us achieve misandry and some of us, after trying to reason with you, have misandry thrust upon us.

Its starting to feel like the rational choice.

Indeed.

"The following statement was issued on 19 November 2014 by the Executive Committee of the American Astronomical Society on behalf of the AAS Council:...........etc. etc.

Methinks it would have been equally valid to have posted that in the "Political Correctness" thread.... It reads like an "insert company name here" pro forma downloadable from the web

Women CAN do anything a man can do (no argument from me there), drive monster trucks on mining sites, fly commercial airliners, fighter jets and space shuttles, captain vessels of aircraft carrier size, contribute massively to scientific advancement, be hard hitting investigative journalists reporting from war zones, design and repair complex electronic equipment, run major companies, in fact any job that requires physical stamina, mental stamina and intelligence. All this, yet as soon as a man appears on the scene, they turn into delicate, cowering, simpering vestal virgins who require special protection and reassurance in case he might "offend" them.

It's a conundrum I have yet to find the answer to.

T.A.

It is impossible to have a debate with an entrenched misogynist.....

Even harder to have one with an entrenched misandrist...

...

Some of us are born misandrist, some of us achieve misandry and some of us, after trying to reason with you, have misandry thrust upon us.

Its starting to feel like the rational choice.

Indeed.

Ooh, the mob is forming. Please leave by the door on your left and pick up your pitchforks and torches on the way out. :D

T.A.