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Message 1322471 - Posted: 30 Dec 2012, 23:50:48 UTC - in response to Message 1322395.



We get back to the old "nature vs nurture" debate. Do you dispute that little girls want to grow up to be like their mothers and little boys want to grow up like their dads ? My first born was a girl, being "new age" parents her first toys were non gender specific or even "boy's" toys. She had a teddy bear but no dolls. However once she was old enough to decide on her own what toys she wanted, it was straight to the dolls aisle.

I think Sarge and Gary have already pointed out that media and peer pressure have a very strong effect, whether we like it or not. My oldest son used to like to have his nails painted whenever I did mine. He still like trains, but he liked playing in his toy kitchen too. He liked me to braid his hair (just like Braveheart) and he quite happily wore pink because it was just another colour. Until he got old enough to understand the comments of strangers in the supermarket and until he got told he'd "turn into a girl" by the other kids at daycare. I remember having to explain that biology was a little more complicated than that and even if I sent him to nursery in a pink tutu he still wouldn't be a girl. He tore out his Braveheart braids in tears after another mother laughed at him and told him he looked like a girl.

He's 17 years old now and no, he's not gay. He was a kid who used to like what he liked until other people told him it wasn't ok.

Women not assertive ? As a teacher you must have seen the cat fight that can go on when the Presidency of the Mother's Club or P&C, PTA (or whatever is known as in your neighbourhood) is up for grabs. Women are not more passive than men, just more subtle, they use a stiletto where a man uses a broadsword. This applies even when it is a woman vs woman contest and has nothing to do with with the male vs female power balance.

ooooh cat fight eh? and that's not gender biased language at all? That's like claiming that women gossip and men don't, yet men are the biggest gossips on the planet.

The majority of the most assertive people I've met have been women, and I don't mean they were b*tches, they were people who knew what they wanted and went for it, Hard.

The majority of assertive people that you've noticed have been women. Men don't get noticed as assertive. They just are.

Of course a man's attitude will change when he finds out you're a woman. In the same way your attitude would change if you found out that someone you assumed was female turned out to be male. To start off, you would feel a bit deceived which would change your attitude to them and you would start talking to them in the way a woman talks to a man instead of the way you talk to another woman.

I talk to people as people. Its what they have to say that matters to me. Why would I feel deceived just because I made an assumption? That was my error, not theirs.

This is normal, both sexes have different manner of speaking depending on whether they're talking to a member of their own sex or a member of the opposite.

Why?

If you don't believe me just sit back and observe. The pitch of the voice changes and so do the mannerisms. In general, I think the style of conversation becomes more guarded when it's a woman/man conversation, even if they close platonic friends.

That doesn't say whether it's nature or nurture. 6 year old girls tend to want to be princesses. (although how they think a princess should behave an act will vary from child to child)

I will agree with you about "gender is in the head". There are definite male and female psyches. Depending on the individual, they may be present to a greater or lesser degree but they are still there. I have been "an observer of the human condition" for many years and I've met a lot of people from wildly different backgrounds, income groups and so on and I've noticed that whether a woman is a "girly" girl or one who has been raised on a cattle station and can out ride and out shoot most men, there are still certain characteristics that define the fact they are female. The same applies to men and to gays and lesbians. When the most effeminate man or the butchest lesbian drops the their guard this psyche still shows through.

This comment is just about background and class, not gender.

Why do you think single mothers have trouble raising sons ? It's because even at one or two years old there is still something inside his head that notices there is no other male around and therefore he is the "Silverback" of this small family. The only way I've seen the mother successfully overcome this is to come down hard and prove to him he isn't.

Sure, boys look to men for role models. I think the is how this whole discussion got started. However, you and I might disagree what that role model should be.

Nurture is important but inside everyone there are millions of years of evolutionary programming and instinct that cannot be denied or eliminated. In all species, the males act like males and the females act like females and there is no "Toys R Us" involved. Why should humans be any different ? We may try and change these basics with "Social Engineering" and even deny they exist but deep down inside they are still there.

They are slight and exaggerated by society and upbringing.

Es. If you reply to this, before you do, just sit back and observe. Wait for people to drop their public face and you will see what I mean.

T.A.

Your assumption is that I haven't? There are a lot of assumptions going on in you whole comment about "correct" gender roles.

This whole topic started because of the question about why so many children are growing up with fathers. Why is it still more socially acceptable for a man to abandon his children than for a woman?

Even those that sympathise with me about being a single mother just offered advice on how I should deal with it...as if it is my lot to accept that I am a single mother and it is my duty to make the sacrifices alone because..well...because men just aren't capable of it apparently.

Which kind of proves my point. The conversation became about my parenting, and not the fathers. It is that sort of insidious discrimination that people seem woefully blind to. Even when they mean well.
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Message 1322494 - Posted: 31 Dec 2012, 1:15:18 UTC

In the rare event that it is a single father raising the children, snide comments are made in that case, too.

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Message 1322512 - Posted: 31 Dec 2012, 4:17:38 UTC - in response to Message 1322434.

Just how much TV had she absorbed by then?

Not a lot, we weren't a TV watching family

Was she home-schooled?
If not, how many of her female classmates and female neighbors her age were playing with dolls?

What I said was
However once she was old enough to decide on her own what toys she wanted, it was straight to the dolls aisle.

This happened when she was around two years old. If think 2 year olds don't know what they want...... :-)

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Message 1322519 - Posted: 31 Dec 2012, 5:45:14 UTC

I think that TV adds and TV shows along with Hollywood have had a lot to do with the labeling aspects of gender roles. Only girls play with dolls. How many guys have had a GI Joe? I did . Wish my damn brother had not traded it for comic books when I joined the AF, be worth some bucks now.

Kids now days have enough problems coping with peer pressure on how they should be. Society and us parents should not be throwing more roadblocks in thier path.
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Message 1322526 - Posted: 31 Dec 2012, 7:28:53 UTC - in response to Message 1322471.



We get back to the old "nature vs nurture" debate. Do you dispute that little girls want to grow up to be like their mothers and little boys want to grow up like their dads ? My first born was a girl, being "new age" parents her first toys were non gender specific or even "boy's" toys. She had a teddy bear but no dolls. However once she was old enough to decide on her own what toys she wanted, it was straight to the dolls aisle.

I think Sarge and Gary have already pointed out that media and peer pressure have a very strong effect, whether we like it or not. My oldest son used to like to have his nails painted whenever I did mine. He still like trains, but he liked playing in his toy kitchen too. He liked me to braid his hair (just like Braveheart) and he quite happily wore pink because it was just another colour. Until he got old enough to understand the comments of strangers in the supermarket and until he got told he'd "turn into a girl" by the other kids at daycare. I remember having to explain that biology was a little more complicated than that and even if I sent him to nursery in a pink tutu he still wouldn't be a girl. He tore out his Braveheart braids in tears after another mother laughed at him and told him he looked like a girl.

Was the other mother having a dig a him or you ? Also, why would you dress him in pink knowing it could lead to trouble from the "less enlightened" ?

Women not assertive ? As a teacher you must have seen the cat fight that can go on when the Presidency of the Mother's Club or P&C, PTA (or whatever is known as in your neighbourhood) is up for grabs. Women are not more passive than men, just more subtle, they use a stiletto where a man uses a broadsword. This applies even when it is a woman vs woman contest and has nothing to do with with the male vs female power balance.

ooooh cat fight eh? and that's not gender biased language at all?

Funny how pick on that one word yet ignore the point that was made in the rest of the paragraph. Why ?

The majority of the most assertive people I've met have been women, and I don't mean they were b*tches, they were people who knew what they wanted and went for it, Hard.

Men don't get noticed as assertive. They just are.

Now who's Stereotyping ?

This is normal, both sexes have different manner of speaking depending on whether they're talking to a member of their own sex or a member of the opposite.

Why?

My guess. Because both are aware that women and men communicate differently so they back off into a more Neutral mode.

If you don't believe me just sit back and observe. The pitch of the voice changes and so do the mannerisms. In general, I think the style of conversation becomes more guarded when it's a woman/man conversation, even if they close platonic friends.

That doesn't say whether it's nature or nurture. 6 year old girls tend to want to be princesses. (although how they think a princess should behave an act will vary from child to child)

At the age of 6 is the desire to "pretty up" and dress as a princess or fairy Nature or Nurture ? Whose fantasy are they living out, theirs or their parents ?

Why is it that at the same age a lot of boys go through a fascination with dinosaurs ?

I will agree with you about "gender is in the head". There are definite male and female psyches. Depending on the individual, they may be present to a greater or lesser degree but they are still there. I have been "an observer of the human condition" for many years and I've met a lot of people from wildly different backgrounds, income groups and so on and I've noticed that whether a woman is a "girly" girl or one who has been raised on a cattle station and can out ride and out shoot most men, there are still certain characteristics that define the fact they are female. The same applies to men and to gays and lesbians. When the most effeminate man or the butchest lesbian drops the their guard this psyche still shows through.

This comment is just about background and class, not gender.

No. It's about the commonalities that exist across background, class and environment. It's saying that for some characteristics, background, class, environment and even orientation are irrelevant.

Why do you think single mothers have trouble raising sons ? It's because even at one or two years old there is still something inside his head that notices there is no other male around and therefore he is the "Silverback" of this small family. The only way I've seen the mother successfully overcome this is to come down hard and prove to him he isn't.

Sure, boys look to men for role models. I think the is how this whole discussion got started. However, you and I might disagree what that role model should be.

Once again you miss the point. In this paragraph I made no mention of role models. The point was, that even at two years old certain things are "hard wired".

Your assumption is that I haven't? There are a lot of assumptions going on in you whole comment about "correct" gender roles.

Where in any of my posts have I even inferred that there are "correct" gender roles ? What I have been saying is that men and women have hard wired predispositions to act in certain ways, that they "process data" differently and that this leads to communication difficulties and the so called "Gender Wars". These are not a new thing, they have been going on at least since the days of Ancient Greece and probably much earlier.

In fact to a degree you have proved my point. It's totally obvious from some of your answers that you have not read what I've typed. :-)

This whole topic started because of the question about why so many children are growing up with fathers.

No. The main inspiration for this thread was watching some married friends having an argument. When it came to the crunch they were actually agreeing with each other but because of the communication difficulties due the way men and women use language neither could see it.

Why is it still more socially acceptable for a man to abandon his children than for a woman?

Probably for the same reason it is much more socially acceptable for a woman to be a single parent than a man. Women are equally as guilty as men in these two attitudes. There are a lot of women that think a man is incapable of raising children, particularly daughters. (As the single father of a girl and two boys for 10 years I can speak from experience.)

T.A.

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Message 1322580 - Posted: 31 Dec 2012, 11:36:09 UTC

First of all I should declare that I don't have any children of my own, therefore my views are purely my opinion.

In this paragraph I made no mention of role models.

I believe that I first mentioned role models. Most experts in parenting agree that it is best for children to have a positive role model to base their own behaviour on.

Why is it still more socially acceptable for a man to abandon his children than for a woman?

Personally I think it is unacceptable for any parent to abandon or walk out on their children of their own volition. But I suspect that because women carry the child for 9 months and give birth to them, that people think that the mother is emotionally closer to a child than the father. Perhaps that colours their thinking that it is "worse" if a mother walks out on their kids.

And yes, I do talk differently to women than men, most likely because of my age group. Chatting with a mate down the pub I might drop the odd expletive in to reinforce a point. But I would never swear in a womans presence. I was brought up to respect women, hold doors open for them, give up my seat on a bus etc. Old world courtesy if you want to call it that.

As to stereotypical roles, my niece used to play cricket for her school, and then rugby. Now she is at Uni she plays rugby for the all ladies Uni rugby team. She has also been trekking in South America. She could be classed as a bit of a tomboy I suppose, but you see her in a short skirt all made up to the nines, and there is no doubt whatsoever that she is 100% feminine!

As far back as 1942, Enid Blyton was writing about the "Famous Five" that had a character called George.

The Famous Five are a group of children who have the sort of adventures most kids dream about, in a world where ginger beer flows and ham rolls are a staple diet. Julian, Dick and Anne get together with their cousin George in the first adventure, Five On A Treasure Island. George is actually a girl who wants so desperately to be a boy she crops her hair and struts about doing boy things. She hates it when people call her by her correct name, Georgina. She has a dog called Timmy.

This thing about boys play with trains and girls play with dolls, was very much the way it was between the world wars and the 50's, but these days there are no rigid boundaries, and there shouldn't be either. Having said that I still have some difficulty in coming to terms with extreme cases like April Ashley, but I guess that is my age group showing again. April



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Message 1324150 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 16:34:06 UTC

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=70295&postid=1320340

and trust me..work places are actually LESS sympathetic to women who take time off for kids. Surprising I know, but sadly true.

A female manager who shall remain nameless ...
"What do you mean you have to take you kid to the doctor, that's what your wife is supposed to do. I'm not giving it to you."
"I'm going to fire her for getting pregnant."
A male manager had to countermand in each case.

Continuing, the woman who was to be fired just put in a request for time off to go to the doctor. Female manager - who never had kids - says, "Did you see this?", waving the request, "I bet she is pregnant again! It is about the right time, 18 months."

Management is utterly clueless.

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Message 1324162 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 16:40:59 UTC

It sounds like very much to me that this female manager should be sacked. If this was in the UK, she'd be out on her ear in 5 minutes.

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Message 1324264 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 18:24:49 UTC - in response to Message 1322526.


Was the other mother having a dig a him or you ? Also, why would you dress him in pink knowing it could lead to trouble from the "less enlightened" ?

Didn't you earlier make the point that 2 year olds are pretty determined about what they want? So are 3 year olds. Why should I re-enforce stereotypes that I disagree with?

Why do you think the other mother was having a dig at me? Is this another "cat fight" comment?


Funny how pick on that one word yet ignore the point that was made in the rest of the paragraph. Why ?

It's not funny at all. If you don't know why I stopped paying attention to you at that point you really don't get it.


Now who's Stereotyping ?

Again, you really don't see whats around you do you? Just like the person that complains that toast always lands butter side down. Well some of us notice that the toast lands either way, and some of us are aware that the times that we are more likely to remember are the ones where the toast is ruined.


My guess. Because both are aware that women and men communicate differently so they back off into a more Neutral mode.

I genuinely don't understand what you are saying here. You need to clarify.


At the age of 6 is the desire to "pretty up" and dress as a princess or fairy Nature or Nurture ? Whose fantasy are they living out, theirs or their parents ?

I think you are overestimating the influence of parents and underestimating the influence of TV, Advertising, Peer pressure etc etc etc

Why is it that at the same age a lot of boys go through a fascination with dinosaurs ?

My kids did not (I have two boys), despite my efforts to take them to all the museums and buy them dinosaur toys. Some kids like them, some like other things. Why are you so fixed on it being decided my gender and not by the individual child? Oddly enough I still haven't got over my fascination with dinosaurs. They are awesome.


No. It's about the commonalities that exist across background, class and environment. It's saying that for some characteristics, background, class, environment and even orientation are irrelevant.

No, your examples show that gender stereotypes are universal and pervasive.


Once again you miss the point. In this paragraph I made no mention of role models. The point was, that even at two years old certain things are "hard wired".

No, you've missed the point. The things that are hard wired are not the things you are claiming are hard wired. I am trying to tell you this from a position of someone who has studied child psychology and human development at university. I am basing what I am telling you on peer reviewed studies. Not on my experience as a woman which I am aware holds no weight here.


Where in any of my posts have I even inferred that there are "correct" gender roles ? What I have been saying is that men and women have hard wired predispositions to act in certain ways, that they "process data" differently and that this leads to communication difficulties and the so called "Gender Wars".

What I am trying to tell you that although there it has been shown that there are "hard wired" differences between men and women, they are only slight. You get the whole bell curve of range of human behaviour from both genders. In fact there is very little difference between girls and boys before they hit puberty, which is when the hormones make changes in the brain chemistry. Before then the differences are not as large as you are claiming, but are exaggerated by upbringing.

These are not a new thing, they have been going on at least since the days of Ancient Greece and probably much earlier.

Lots of things aren't new. Doesn't mean they are correct.

In fact to a degree you have proved my point. It's totally obvious from some of your answers that you have not read what I've typed. :-)

I read exactly what you typed, and based on what I know about actual research that has been done in this area I decided you had missed the point. I then helpfully tried to correct you, but you simply wouldn't have it.


No. The main inspiration for this thread was watching some married friends having an argument. When it came to the crunch they were actually agreeing with each other but because of the communication difficulties due the way men and women use language neither could see it.

There might be differences, but how much are "hard wired" and how much are because we raise men and women differently?


Probably for the same reason it is much more socially acceptable for a woman to be a single parent than a man. Women are equally as guilty as men in these two attitudes. There are a lot of women that think a man is incapable of raising children, particularly daughters. (As the single father of a girl and two boys for 10 years I can speak from experience.)

T.A.

..and Bingo. Now you understand how stupid those stereotypes are. I am quite sure that you were able to be just as nurturing with your children and did a fine job of raising them. It is only pervasive stereotypes that tell everyone different. I never had the chance to raise daughters, but I raised two sons and both were very different. One has been extremely hard work to raise, one has been a delight (so far). Both boys. Both with all the human traits that I have seen in both genders.

Between them they like guns, trains and fluffy bunnies, cuddly toys and war games. They both adore the cat, one is very good with little children, one is not. They like cuddles when they are sick. They can both be very thoughtful and one has a real eye for design (he lets me know when I am dressed weirdly), both are excellent at math and art. One likes cooking. Even people who have met them would not guess which traits belonged to which son just by looking. Which of these traits are female? Which are male? and why should it matter?
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Message 1324265 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 18:28:37 UTC - in response to Message 1324150.

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=70295&postid=1320340
and trust me..work places are actually LESS sympathetic to women who take time off for kids. Surprising I know, but sadly true.

A female manager who shall remain nameless ...
"What do you mean you have to take you kid to the doctor, that's what your wife is supposed to do. I'm not giving it to you."
"I'm going to fire her for getting pregnant."
A male manager had to countermand in each case.

Continuing, the woman who was to be fired just put in a request for time off to go to the doctor. Female manager - who never had kids - says, "Did you see this?", waving the request, "I bet she is pregnant again! It is about the right time, 18 months."

Management is utterly clueless.

It sounds like someone who has taken on the old patriarchal ideas about women because they think this is how to get ahead. When someone behaves like this they have internalised their oppression. She is in for a real shock if and when she ever decides to have children.
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Message 1324278 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 18:57:26 UTC

Well we would need to know if she is single or married, and her age group, before we could really make any more realistic judgements.

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Message 1324297 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 19:27:57 UTC - in response to Message 1324278.

Well we would need to know if she is single or married, and her age group, before we could really make any more realistic judgements.


I don't think behaving like an arsehole is dependent on your marital status or your age.
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Message 1324309 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 19:42:53 UTC

Hey you, I'm trying to agree with you! No of course it isn't. But for example, if she is unmarried in her 50's them maybe she has a chip on her shoulder about never finding a man and having kids of her own. If she is married and in her 30's maybe she has chosen not to have kids, and objects to those that do. We just don't know her motives for her apparent unpleasant behaviour. Not that any of that is any excuse for it.

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Message 1324311 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 19:43:07 UTC - in response to Message 1324265.

[/quote]It sounds like someone who has taken on the old patriarchal ideas about women because they think this is how to get ahead. When someone behaves like this they have internalised their oppression. She is in for a real shock if and when she ever decides to have children.[/quote]
The hot flashes are long over.

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Message 1324332 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 20:09:33 UTC - in response to Message 1324309.

Hey you, I'm trying to agree with you! No of course it isn't. But for example, if she is unmarried in her 50's them maybe she has a chip on her shoulder about never finding a man and having kids of her own.


*Facepalm*

<sarcasm> Because a woman without a man can't be happy.</sarcasm>

Chris, I was "without a man" for quite sometime. I was quite happy with that side of things. It is very possible to be happy without a man. It is very possible (in my experience) to be much happier without a man than with one. It does depend entirely on the man in question.

What I found odd was that when I did "find a man" I was told that it must me so much better for me to have a man now. Some things are better, some are worse. I have to negotiate everything with someone else and can't just go and do as I please anymore. Fortunately I like the particular man I am with enough to overlook that side of things.

What I wasn't happy with having to shoulder the entire burden of child rearing. As far as I was aware my kids still had two parents, even if I had had enough of living with him. You don't stop being a parent just because you no longer live with the mother of the children.

The particular man I am with has taken on the role of helping rear another man's children. That is a quality of him as a person that I like. It isn't necessarily a quality of him just because he is a man. I have taken on the role of helping him rear another woman's children. I gained extra sons. Not easy.

So I am not happier just because I have a man now. I am happier because I have someone who behaves like an adult and also likes to come and see the latest Tarantino movies with me.

If she is married and in her 30's maybe she has chosen not to have kids, and objects to those that do. We just don't know her motives for her apparent unpleasant behaviour. Not that any of that is any excuse for it.


Or maybe like the boss that did it to me, she kept having miscarriages. Who knows? You are right that there is no excuse for it.

What you have highlighted is why some women blame other woman for their misfortune.

Talking of Tarantino movies, I suggest you go and see his latest one. The character Samuel L. Jackson plays might throw some light on this particular conversation.
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Message 1324473 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 5:37:52 UTC

When I was 15 I worked for a fast food restaurant with 2 other friends

we had a black female manager.

She was not a niece person to work for, so we started calling my friend who's

name was Imenager I'm a nager this pissed her off.

we did not do this because she was black there was another black manager

we did not do this because she was female there was another female manager

we did this because she was a bad manager.

To judge some one by any other criteria than how they act is silly

you loss to many potential friends that way.


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Message 1324490 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 7:51:58 UTC - in response to Message 1324332.

Hey you, I'm trying to agree with you! No of course it isn't. But for example, if she is unmarried in her 50's them maybe she has a chip on her shoulder about never finding a man and having kids of her own.


*Facepalm*

<sarcasm> Because a woman without a man can't be happy.</sarcasm>

In this instance I think that Chris is taking the the "old fashioned" view that a woman needs to be married to have children. The real point is the lady's attitude could have been due to not having had children of her own.

Hearing "the ticking of the biological clock" has become a recognised cause of stress in childless female executives in their late 30's, early 40's and some go to extreme lengths to beat it.

Chris, I was "without a man" for quite sometime. I was quite happy with that side of things. It is very possible to be happy without a man. It is very possible (in my experience) to be much happier without a man than with one.


As this works for both sexes I totally agree with you on this one. Once the "honeymoon period" is over even a "good" relationship has its moments and both parties have to work to keep it together. This is possibly why a lot of childless people these days are going for "friends with benefits" arrangements rather than full time relationships.

Isn't there a female joke that says "The only reason to keep a man around the house is to change lightbulbs and kill spiders" ?

The "gender wars" are a two way street

T.A.

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Message 1324651 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 18:17:18 UTC - in response to Message 1324490.

A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle thinking?


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Message 1324727 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 22:56:44 UTC - in response to Message 1324651.

A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle thinking?


Something like that.

Feminism took women out of the kitchen and into the workplace (although for most of history they never left). Women were meant to be able to have everything a man had. A fulfilling career and a family.

However, this meant that men were supposed to take up some of the traditional women's roles. Such as help with the domestic arrangements and the childrearing.

Not enough men did this (and who can blame them, traditional women's work is pretty much all the crap that no one else wants to do) and women found themselves having to be superwomen doing it all. Which is impossible. They also discovered that as they were now earning, the men who refused to adapt to this new paradigm became pretty much useless. It was easier for a woman in a lot of instances to remain single.

In the instances where men are able to adapt and take on more traditionally female roles, both parties in the relationship thrive.
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