Let me ask you statists something.

Why do we need city, county and state governments if we have a federal government?

(Careful, it's a trick question. No matter how you answer it, I'll have you verbally cornered.)

Careful, a statist is a statist, not a fedist or a nationallst. ;)

When they finally figure out how to tell who's well in mind, watch out. You'll find a very small percentage of us are. So, stop throwing around the "another mentally ill guy off his rocker and meds" comments.

No Sarge. There is a limit.I'll agree with you that most people have degree of irrationality but when it gets to the point of specifically arming yourself to start taking out seven year olds or fellow employees. That is definitely outside the "normal" range.

I can understand "crimes of passion" and even a gangland hit that is cold bloodedly organised to get rid of rival (there is a certain rationality to this), but to start blazing away at people you don't know, are no threat and have done you no harm shows a complete withdrawal from the rest of humanity.

T.A.

No Sarge. There is a limit.I'll agree with you that most people have degree of irrationality but when it gets to the point of specifically arming yourself to start taking out seven year olds or fellow employees. That is definitely outside the "normal" range.

I can understand "crimes of passion" and even a gangland hit that is cold bloodedly organised to get rid of rival (there is a certain rationality to this), but to start blazing away at people you don't know, are no threat and have done you no harm shows a complete withdrawal from the rest of humanity.

T.A.

When you get to the point of arming yourself to protect yourself against a democratic republic government because you think there is some conspiracy in that government to come after you, that is outside the normal range.

When you arm yourself for protection because you job makes you a target for the criminal element, e.g. transportation of large amounts of cash, that is a rational decision.

When you arm yourself for protection without any credible specific threat, that is borderline.

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Madison wrote the Constitution in his own hand. But in corresponding with Jefferson.

Reason...

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"

-- Thomas Jefferson

This isn't the only reason. But the strongest one. The intent of law is the only thing needed to be looked at. We have a contract with the federal government. They have broken it, each and every last part of it. Not only that but the states have gone along with it. If, or better yet, when, the house of cards falls we have reason, last resort. Example they finish off the dollar and chaos ensues, reason for the firearm becomes evident. If the people where not ignorant sheeple and demanded the contract be followed, we wouldn't be at this point in the first place.

to protect themselves against tyranny in government

Can you cite one occasion where the US Government has been cruel and oppressive and not been questioned if cruel acts against the population have been suspected.

The fact that laws have changed, probably because they no longer fit the present situation, is not a reason for an uprising or even suggesting one.

to protect themselves against tyranny in government

Can you cite one occasion where the US Government has been cruel and oppressive and not been questioned if cruel acts against the population have been suspected.

The fact that laws have changed, probably because they no longer fit the present situation, is not a reason for an uprising or even suggesting one.

Well I guess we'll have to get into a debate about what's cruel and oppressive.

Is it cruel and oppressive to take more and more money from citizens that they would normally have had to donate to the charity of their choice?

Is it cruel and oppressive to take more and more money from citizens in order for the collective to decide what charitable cause to donate to?

If so, then yes, I can list several items.

Do you mean to say you consider taxes cruel and oppressive?

Is it cruel and oppressive to order citizens to hand over all possessions and report to the rice fields or die?

If so, then no, I can't list any.... yet.

And there was me thinking you were a Christian:

Mark 10:21

As Jesus looked at him, he felt love for him and said, “You lack one thing. Go, sell whatever you have and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Luke 18:22

When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Matthew 19:21

Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

The fact that laws are changing faster than human nature is changing is precisely the reason for suggesting an uprising more and more.

Which laws are you referring to?

The fact that several states sent letters to Washington DC stating an intent to seceed from the union is evidence

Which states have done this? Note, petitions signed by a few citizens upset by the outcome of the last election do not qualify as a letter from a state.

that more and more people are realizing we are beginning to witness a course in human events that may lead the people to dissolve the political bands which have connected us with one another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature

Which "Laws of Nature" do you subscribe to? For example, Hobbes, Rousseau and Rawls have very different ideas.

and of Nature's God entitle us. In an effort to remain peaceful, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that we should declare the causes which impel us to separate. But our current federal government is beginning to forget the fact that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. And they are also forgetting the fact that our federal government derives their just powers from the consent of the governed. And when the people see that the federal government is becoming destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.

Will you be better off without your military pension? If so, then by all means champion the overthrowing of the Union ...

Many, many peaceful solutions still exist today. But if we continue on our current course, we will repeat a very violent past.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

source

Look at the list of grievances, where is your list of similarly serious issues?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Taxation without representation. At the county level, not federal. Many property owners are not permitted to vote for or on the taxes upon their properties. Persons who are not property owners are permitted to vote on these matters.

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Do you mean to say you consider taxes cruel and oppressive?

And there was me thinking you were a Christian:

Which laws are you referring to?

Which "Laws of Nature" do you subscribe to? For example, Hobbes, Rousseau and Rawls have very different ideas.

Which states have done this? Note, petitions signed by a few citizens upset by the outcome of the last election do not qualify as a letter from a state

Will you be better off without your military pension? If so, then by all means champion the overthrowing of the Union ...

Look at the list of grievances, where is your list of similarly serious issues?

How much tax and how selective a tax is enough?

Does not answer the question asked.

Selectively quoting from the Bible will get no where with you. Why do you think it'll get anywhere with me?

You have stated that you are a Christian, I have not. As a Christian, do you accept the words of your God regarding entry to heaven?

How many laws are you unaware of?

Aside from not answering the question, I have to ask are you serious?

Laws of nature are self evident to many. Before man figured out how to seize control of large populations, those who didn't see them where pushed out of the village.

Does not answer the question.

You must only watch MSNBC. They played down the petitions to seceed also.

You said states had written letters, you were azked which ones? Again you failed to answer the question asked. My viewing habits are irrelevant; "playing down the petitions", do you consider less than 1% of the population more than "a few"?

What does my military pension have to do with what I am talking about?

You military pension is provided by the federal government, is it not? If so, which agency do you think will provide it should the federal government be replaced (or Texas secede)?

What do the grievances of more than 200 years ago have to do with today?

They provide examples of the issues that the Founding Fathers thought made a case to revolt against the government of the day.

Yes, I quoted some timeless words, didn't I? Thanks for noticing my plagerism. If I had sourced it, some of you would not have read it. I've listed my grievances in the past. Even you are ignoring them.

I asked "where is your list", if you have provided it in the past, could you provide a link? As for ignoring the words you quoted, the link to the source facilitates a reading of them in their original context, some may prefer that option.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Make a point and I'll address it.

Making points appears to be your style, I prefer to ask questions. Please address the ones that remain unanswered.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Make a point and I'll address it.

Making points appears to be your style, I prefer to ask questions. Please address the ones that remain unanswered.

Like talking points for ditto heads?

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Like talking points for ditto heads?

Most stuff in politics is talking heads for nil points :-)

Ditto heads is a reference to the mindless masses listening and agreeing with Rush Limbaugh, a conservative radio personality.

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Janice

Right after this last national election, I quit being fair and have untied the half of my brain that I had tied in the past to make debating liberals fair.

Didn't you previously announce some sort of conversion to liberalism around election time?

I'm an no longer wanting to be friendly with the mind-numbed robot voters who are successfully destroying this nation through athiesm, socialism, Marxism and communism.

How does atheism destroy the nation? If the voters are mind-numbed robots, how do they have the capacity to follow the ideas of any of the isms you list?

I no longer listen to Rush Limbaugh. He now listens to me and then repeats what I have to say on over 600 AM radio stations. I don't know how he's doing it because we've never talked.

If you no longer listen to Rush, how do you know he repeats what you have to say?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Right after this last national election, I quit being fair and have untied the half of my brain that I had tied in the past to make debating liberals fair.

Didn't you previously announce some sort of conversion to liberalism around election time?

I'm an no longer wanting to be friendly with the mind-numbed robot voters who are successfully destroying this nation through athiesm, socialism, Marxism and communism.

How does atheism destroy the nation? If the voters are mind-numbed robots, how do they have the capacity to follow the ideas of any of the isms you list?

I no longer listen to Rush Limbaugh. He now listens to me and then repeats what I have to say on over 600 AM radio stations. I don't know how he's doing it because we've never talked.

If you no longer listen to Rush, how do you know he repeats what you have to say?

He lost me when I realised he shared the same ideas as Rush. Now I know we're wasting our time.

Rush is a vile ignorant man.

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Reality Internet Personality

Rush is a vile ignorant man.

That's one thing we agree on 100%, Es....

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Right after this last national election, I quit being fair and have untied the half of my brain that I had tied in the past to make debating liberals fair.

I'm an no longer wanting to be friendly with the mind-numbed robot voters who are successfully destroying this nation through athiesm, socialism, Marxism and communism.

I no longer listen to Rush Limbaugh. He now listens to me and then repeats what I have to say on over 600 AM radio stations. I don't know how he's doing it because we've never talked.

Please stay on topic. You were invited here to discuss the gun issues raised in my opening posts.