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Message 1317148 - Posted: 19 Dec 2012, 15:56:18 UTC - in response to Message 1317067.

...

...
Most psychologists agree that being brought up in a stable, traditional, two parent family unit, is by far the best start in life.

Can you please provide evidence of that statement?

Allie would have already got that during her formative years, and therefore a gay or bi environment would not have had any detrimental effect upon her development. So BC and AB wouldn't, and shouldn't, have had an issue. I've also known you for long enough to be sure, that you wouldn't for one moment have entered into any arrangement that wasn't for her best interests.

Detrimental? Why?

Gay people don't have sex in front of their children anymore than straight people do.
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Message 1317171 - Posted: 19 Dec 2012, 16:48:59 UTC

Oh gosh, it's defend myself day!

Most psychologists agree that being brought up in a stable, traditional, two parent family unit, is by far the best start in life.

Can you please provide evidence of that statement?

I'll do a quick trawl but I may need to have time to dig deeper. Look, let's be clear. In today's modern society, parenting is a light year away from what it was, say 40 or 50 years ago. Single parent families and broken relationships are far more common now than in the past. People deal with those circumstances as best they can. Not every single parent family had someone like you in charge, and that is a compliment not a condescending comment. But that doesn't mean to say that it is the best possible way to nurture our young adults.

Supporting evidence

Evidence 2

Detrimental? Why? Gay people don't have sex in front of their children anymore than straight people do.

Oh Es, you know full well that isn't what I meant. A young impressionable 5 year old is likely to be more confused in that environment, than a with it teenager. That is what I meant.

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Message 1317424 - Posted: 20 Dec 2012, 1:09:11 UTC - in response to Message 1317171.

Oh gosh, it's defend myself day!

Well you post something here you'd better be able to back it up! Its the number one rule of politics club.

Most psychologists agree that being brought up in a stable, traditional, two parent family unit, is by far the best start in life.

Can you please provide evidence of that statement?

I'll do a quick trawl but I may need to have time to dig deeper. Look, let's be clear. In today's modern society, parenting is a light year away from what it was, say 40 or 50 years ago.

I am not sure if you are saying that it has improved or got worse. We don't beat our children with belts anymore.
Women are stuck in abusive relationships anymore (and there is a mass of evidence that witnessing domestic abuse is one of the most detrimental things a child can endure). I a for one am very glad to be living now than 50 years ago.

Single parent families and broken relationships are far more common now than in the past.

Again, women are no longer forced to stay in abusive or unahppy relationships. Most divorces are initiated by women, so a lot of them aren't happy. A happy mum means happy kids. A kid being raised by a mother on anti-depressants or who has turned to drink to cope (there was endemic hidden alcoholism in homes 40 to 50 years ago. People just didn't talk about it. Just like they didn't talk about child abuse).

People deal with those circumstances as best they can. Not every single parent family had someone like you in charge, and that is a compliment not a condescending comment. But that doesn't mean to say that it is the best possible way to nurture our young adults.

Supporting evidence

I can't find anything there about same sex parents. It just says what we all know, that children do better in stable homes.

Evidence 2

This is just an article about being a good dad. Its not evidence, and if it is it implies that having two dads might be better than one!
Detrimental? Why? Gay people don't have sex in front of their children anymore than straight people do.

Oh Es, you know full well that isn't what I meant. A young impressionable 5 year old is likely to be more confused in that environment, than a with it teenager. That is what I meant.


I'll let someone who was raised by two women speak for himself. He doesn't seem confused at all.

My kids have a gay aunt and a gay uncle. It doesn't seem to have confused them at all. They love their aunt an uncle, and it certainly didn't affect the negatively either to go stay with their aunt and her long term girlfriend.
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Message 1317450 - Posted: 20 Dec 2012, 3:26:20 UTC - in response to Message 1317424.

When loving caring people confuse kids, maybe it is not the loving caring people causing the confusion?


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Message 1317927 - Posted: 21 Dec 2012, 0:54:47 UTC - in response to Message 1315996.

In the previous post I said,

Also, these days after the kids, have hopefully, left home the parents can still look forward to 30 years more life.
So if they now have different ideas on where their lives are going and they are married divorce is a "better" option.


Well the latest from the 2011 Census, it is reported that, 'Silver splitters' on the rise as over-60s head for divorce courts

According to the Office for National Statistics the proportion of so-called “silver splitters” – people over 60 separating from their husband or wife - has almost doubled in a decade.


Looks like I might have been right, again Exits stage left, rapidly

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Message 1319890 - Posted: 25 Dec 2012, 16:00:51 UTC

Now here's a seasonal conundrum for supporters of the thread title.

A 'dad' is tenth most popular Christmas list request for children

Which when, I would guess, about 70% of kids live in a home with a "Dad", means that a lot of those that don't have one, must have asked for a "Dad"

A request for a "mum" reached number 23 on the list.

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Message 1320166 - Posted: 26 Dec 2012, 20:58:08 UTC - in response to Message 1319890.

Now here's a seasonal conundrum for supporters of the thread title.

A 'dad' is tenth most popular Christmas list request for children

Which when, I would guess, about 70% of kids live in a home with a "Dad", means that a lot of those that don't have one, must have asked for a "Dad"

A request for a "mum" reached number 23 on the list.

Not sure what that has to do with same gender marriage.

It seems to say a lot about the large amount of men who father children then disappear. Thank goodness most of the women don't do that, or we'd have a nation of orphans.
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Message 1320168 - Posted: 26 Dec 2012, 21:06:23 UTC - in response to Message 1320166.

Now here's a seasonal conundrum for supporters of the thread title.

A 'dad' is tenth most popular Christmas list request for children

Which when, I would guess, about 70% of kids live in a home with a "Dad", means that a lot of those that don't have one, must have asked for a "Dad"

A request for a "mum" reached number 23 on the list.

Not sure what that has to do with same gender marriage.

It seems to say a lot about the large amount of men who father children then disappear. Thank goodness most of the women don't do that, or we'd have a nation of orphans.

That probably is true of the young and unmarried, but in the case of the divorced I'm not convinced. Quite often the wife, who usually gets custody, either makes it difficult for the Father to have access, or poisons the kid minds by making them believe the father was the one at fault.

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Message 1320199 - Posted: 26 Dec 2012, 22:09:51 UTC - in response to Message 1320168.

Now here's a seasonal conundrum for supporters of the thread title.

A 'dad' is tenth most popular Christmas list request for children

Which when, I would guess, about 70% of kids live in a home with a "Dad", means that a lot of those that don't have one, must have asked for a "Dad"

A request for a "mum" reached number 23 on the list.

Not sure what that has to do with same gender marriage.

It seems to say a lot about the large amount of men who father children then disappear. Thank goodness most of the women don't do that, or we'd have a nation of orphans.

That probably is true of the young and unmarried, but in the case of the divorced I'm not convinced. Quite often the wife, who usually gets custody, either makes it difficult for the Father to have access, or poisons the kid minds by making them believe the father was the one at fault.

Quite often? I've known one case of that.

I've known far more cases of men who show little interest or think that being a father means seeing the kids if and when its convenient to them. I've known far more cases of fathers just disappearing and starting new families. I've known far more cases of fathers refusing to admit the kids are even theirs.

Sorry. The facts just don't back you up on that one.
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Message 1320239 - Posted: 26 Dec 2012, 23:38:48 UTC - in response to Message 1320199.

Now here's a seasonal conundrum for supporters of the thread title.

A 'dad' is tenth most popular Christmas list request for children

Which when, I would guess, about 70% of kids live in a home with a "Dad", means that a lot of those that don't have one, must have asked for a "Dad"

A request for a "mum" reached number 23 on the list.

Not sure what that has to do with same gender marriage.

It seems to say a lot about the large amount of men who father children then disappear. Thank goodness most of the women don't do that, or we'd have a nation of orphans.

That probably is true of the young and unmarried, but in the case of the divorced I'm not convinced. Quite often the wife, who usually gets custody, either makes it difficult for the Father to have access, or poisons the kid minds by making them believe the father was the one at fault.

Quite often? I've known one case of that.

I've known far more cases of men who show little interest or think that being a father means seeing the kids if and when its convenient to them. I've known far more cases of fathers just disappearing and starting new families. I've known far more cases of fathers refusing to admit the kids are even theirs.

Sorry. The facts just don't back you up on that one.

I'm not going to argue, but will say I think your thinking is biased and the situation with fathers is not as bad as you assume.

Lets put it this way I know of three cases where the mother did everything possible to exclude the fathers. One of the mothers now very much regrets her actions as she was found out by one of her daughters and is now the excluded member, with very little contact with her grandchildren.

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Message 1320250 - Posted: 27 Dec 2012, 0:05:14 UTC - in response to Message 1320239.

Now here's a seasonal conundrum for supporters of the thread title.

A 'dad' is tenth most popular Christmas list request for children

Which when, I would guess, about 70% of kids live in a home with a "Dad", means that a lot of those that don't have one, must have asked for a "Dad"

A request for a "mum" reached number 23 on the list.

Not sure what that has to do with same gender marriage.

It seems to say a lot about the large amount of men who father children then disappear. Thank goodness most of the women don't do that, or we'd have a nation of orphans.

That probably is true of the young and unmarried, but in the case of the divorced I'm not convinced. Quite often the wife, who usually gets custody, either makes it difficult for the Father to have access, or poisons the kid minds by making them believe the father was the one at fault.

Quite often? I've known one case of that.

I've known far more cases of men who show little interest or think that being a father means seeing the kids if and when its convenient to them. I've known far more cases of fathers just disappearing and starting new families. I've known far more cases of fathers refusing to admit the kids are even theirs.

Sorry. The facts just don't back you up on that one.

I'm not going to argue, but will say I think your thinking is biased and the situation with fathers is not as bad as you assume.

Lets put it this way I know of three cases where the mother did everything possible to exclude the fathers. One of the mothers now very much regrets her actions as she was found out by one of her daughters and is now the excluded member, with very little contact with her grandchildren.

Well I can see that happening with the situation I know. The woman is going to end up very lonely.

Still, 3 isn't a lot considering how many absent fathers I know and know of who are absent by their choice. Talk to anyone in social services and they'll tell you.

The sad thing is though, that because so many men behave like this it makes it harder for the decent men to be heard when woman is trying to drive them out.

I also know men who claim that woman are doing this to them and then when you dig a little deeper you find out that the woman has very good reason to want to keep them away from the her and the children. Or the father just lies to people and claims this is the case when it is absolutely not and he is the one refusing to arrange regular times, or constantly cancelling visiting days because he gets a better offer. Or refusing to see the kids unless the mother pays for the travel, or drops them off and picks them up and just makes it difficult. These are very real situations that I have seen time and time and time again and I've seen the heartbreak it causes.

I can probably list about 20 men by name off the top of my head who have walked away from being a decent father despite the mother's best efforts. If I think harder I am sure I can add a lot more to that list.

In my discussions with lawyers and the child support agency I've been told time and time again that far too many men are walking away from their responsibilities. It is mostly men. I'm not saying it is all men, but from the survey posted it is more men that women.
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Message 1320253 - Posted: 27 Dec 2012, 0:15:29 UTC - in response to Message 1320250.

Some of the reasons men have walked away is probaly because of the way they are mistrusted by the courts and social services.
There is also the problem which affects both sexes, but probably more for fathers, try keeping your job or getting promotion, if you ask for time off because of the kids. That is until you get a boss who is in exactly the same position.

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Message 1320336 - Posted: 27 Dec 2012, 5:31:40 UTC - in response to Message 1320253.

Some of the reasons men have walked away is probaly because of the way they are mistrusted by the courts and social services.
There is also the problem which affects both sexes, but probably more for fathers, try keeping your job or getting promotion, if you ask for time off because of the kids. That is until you get a boss who is in exactly the same position.

LOL.

More of a problem for fathers? Please don't be insulting. They don't call it the glass ceiling for nothing. Women just don't get or don't take those jobs in the first place if they have children.

and trust me..work places are actually LESS sympathetic to women who take time off for kids. Surprising I know, but sadly true.

The idea that some how all these father's are being driven off by evil women is so insulting and ludicrous I don't even know where to start. They leave because they can and because raising children is damn hard work.

You mention 3 women you know who allegedly behaved badly. How about the men who behaved well? I know lots of single mothers, I know lots of couples (you kind of get to know lots of people with kids when you are raising children through all those school functions.) I know a couple of single fathers who are raising their children on their own. Both of them are widowers. Of all the other kids from single homes I can think of only one, one, where the father shares the children equally with the mother and didn't try to punish the mother by being an arse about being a father. I'm talking of data samples from two continents now. Back in the UK and here in Canada. I'm sorry. You are so wrong on this.

The problem isn't the mothers. They are the ones that stay and pick up the pieces.
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Message 1320340 - Posted: 27 Dec 2012, 5:49:45 UTC - in response to Message 1320336.

and trust me..work places are actually LESS sympathetic to women who take time off for kids. Surprising I know, but sadly true.

A female manager who shall remain nameless ...
"What do you mean you have to take you kid to the doctor, that's what your wife is supposed to do. I'm not giving it to you."
"I'm going to fire her for getting pregnant."
A male manager had to countermand in each case.

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Message 1320482 - Posted: 27 Dec 2012, 18:23:58 UTC - in response to Message 1320340.

and trust me..work places are actually LESS sympathetic to women who take time off for kids. Surprising I know, but sadly true.

A female manager who shall remain nameless ...
"What do you mean you have to take you kid to the doctor, that's what your wife is supposed to do. I'm not giving it to you."
"I'm going to fire her for getting pregnant."
A male manager had to countermand in each case.

You cite one extreme example.

Do you want me to cite all the times I've gotten crap from pretty much every job I've ever had for needing to take time off when the kids are sick? One job was so bad I ended up walking out...and it was a woman manager.

Do you want me to cite how many times I dosed my kids up with medicine and sent them to school sick because I knew I couldn't take anymore time off work?

Do you want me to cite all the times I looked at a promotion I would have loved to do and had to say no because I knew that as a mother I would have to choose between being there for my kids or for my job?

Shall I tell you how many times I had to miss school plays because I wasn't allowed the time off work?

How many times I had to let my kids walk home alone? How about the time I had to stay late at work, and my then 12 year old son had to walk his little brother home from school. He got mugged by two men who took the money I had given him to buy the dinner I couldn't cook because I couldn't get the time off work. While he was trying to protect his little brother, they punched him in the face so he would be too scared to go get help.

Yes, us women clearly have it so much easier.

I'm sorry. You clearly don't have a clue.
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Message 1320706 - Posted: 28 Dec 2012, 8:23:26 UTC - in response to Message 1320482.
Last modified: 28 Dec 2012, 8:31:48 UTC


Yes, us women clearly have it so much easier.

I'm sorry. You clearly don't have a clue.

I'm getting rather sick of these "Gender Wars"

I can quote cases where the man, the woman or both have been at fault.

The mother who moved to the other side of the country in order to stop the father having access, the mother who was quite happy for the children to live with the father until he applied to the court to have her child support stopped. Cases where the father just disappeared never to be seen again or deliberately quit his job and went on unemployment benefits so he wouldn't have to pay child support. The custodial parent (either sex) not passing on letters and presents sent by the absent parent to the kids so they will think they have been abandoned by them, it happens.

Es, you seem to have the attitude that men are emotionless goons with no feelings for their kids. You ignore the emotional strain that is put on them by only having limited access to them. i.e. One day per week, per fortnight, per month or sometimes less when they really want to be a full time father. Fathers Day

Some men just can't handle the stress this puts on them so they cut themselves off all together in order to survive.

The problem is parents, who when they split, are so full of hate to the other they use the kids as a weapon against the other party, ignoring the effect this has on the children themselves. To hear one person you love bad mouthing another person you love and demanding that you take sides is traumatic for them.

Children are not dumb, they know what is going on. My Mother used to give my Father a quite unjustified hard time, even at 10 years old I could see this. One day I asked him why he didn't leave. His reply was "Because I have four very good reasons to stay". I have never forgotten that and many years later when my wife and I broke up, the kids were all given the option as to which parent they lived with and no questions asked.

That is one thing I have always been grateful for. Despite the situation between us, my ex and I had the maturity not to drag the kids into it.

Edit: Part of the problem is the sexism of the Divorce/Family courts that in almost all cases give custody to the mother even though there are many cases where the children would be better off with the father.

T.A.

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Message 1320709 - Posted: 28 Dec 2012, 8:28:37 UTC - in response to Message 1320706.

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Message 1320712 - Posted: 28 Dec 2012, 8:54:31 UTC

I know enough of Es's background to support all that she has said, and have the standpoint that she does. I won't say any more than that.

The problem isn't the mothers. They are the ones that stay and pick up the pieces.

Part of the problem is the sexism of the Divorce/Family courts that in almost all cases give custody to the mother even though there are many cases where the children would be better off with the father.

Both the above statements are linked, and are true. The courts probably work on the basis that historically most fathers go to work and that most mothers don't. Maybe these days that should be reviewed.

It is my own opinion, maybe wrong, that generally speaking if the kids are say below 7, then they are probably better off with their mother. If they are older then it's with which ever parent is likely to give them the best stability. Each and every case is individual and all aspects should be be taken into account.



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Message 1320729 - Posted: 28 Dec 2012, 9:37:39 UTC - in response to Message 1320712.

I know enough of Es's background to support all that she has said, and have the standpoint that she does. I won't say any more than that.

Not knowing Es I can't comment. But I would venture to say that for every "Es type" situation I could quote one where the woman was the prime instigator of the situation.

Women are much better at psychological warfare than men are.

T.A.

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Message 1320737 - Posted: 28 Dec 2012, 9:56:23 UTC
Last modified: 28 Dec 2012, 9:57:09 UTC

I support Chris, as I am fairly aware of Es's situation and can understand her view point.

This is a complex issue and each situation is unique in it's circumstances.

I can thank God that Sheila and I got on and stayed together, and can now meet the Grand children, our 3 being grown up, after nearly 45 years of marriage.
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