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Message 1316295 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 2:15:49 UTC - in response to Message 1316231.

Ah. Your ex. Your current's ex. Your parents. The church is there to do what you say...

Now I understand. Rest assured, I'll quit haranguing you from now on.

My ex has a diagnosed mental illness that makes him very difficult to deal with. Don't understand your comment on my parents, but as my mother posts here, perhaps you can explain it to her?

The church does not figure in my life, so again your comment makes no sense.
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Message 1316317 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 4:55:46 UTC - in response to Message 1315996.

In countries like Cyprus tho only offical form of marriage is the civil license. It can be performed in church by a registered church offical, it does not have to be the priest. But if the registered official isn't there the marriage is not lawful.
So if your innocent daughter went on holiday to Ayios Nikolaos and comes home pregnant, and says "It's okay Daddy, we got married beforehand." double check.

In my country the only legal marriage is made through a civil license, and that license is only granted a by a peace jury. There is no church or other kind of organization allowed to give that license.
If you want to get married through the church, the church will ask you to show the civilian marriage license before giving you the sacrament.

I guess that's why it seems so weird for me all this thread.
As the law about marriage has nothing to do with the sacrament, there is not state assertions over the church. The state allows people of the same gender to get married, the church, as allways dont. The state allows people to divorce, the church as allways, dont. The state allow aborts (on same cases), the church as allways dont... Nothing in the laws made by the men is forcing or changing what the religions do or believe...
I guess the main issue here is that some people thinks that the only meanning of the word "marriage" is the religious one... For me, marriage have two meanings, one in the legal/social context: "agreement between two individuals" and another in the religious context: "sacrament in which God bless the bonding between a man and a woman".
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Message 1316323 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 5:17:42 UTC - in response to Message 1316317.

I knew that other countries also had the ruling that the "State Marriage" is the only legal marriage. But Cyprus was the only country I was familiar enough with to know I could quote Facts.

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Message 1316342 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 7:02:22 UTC - in response to Message 1315924.

Es, the subject remains as in the thread title. Same gender, same sex, or gay marriage. I think religion does have a a part to play because unless I'm wrong, most religions do not go along with it, whereas modern society is starting to accept it. Guy is always going to be Guy in the same way that ID is always going to be ID, and likewise others. You've been around long enough to know to post around them :-)

I think that marriage is separate from religion. Yes most people get married at churches, but it is a LEGAL joining, so the distinction needs to be clear. Marriage need not be religious.
With that said, why do the rules of any religion have to apply to marriage? Marriage is not a religion specific thing, so why are people applying specific religious values to marriage?

Bah.

As others have mentioned, I don't know why some people care what other people do in their homes... How does it affect you? (No one has ever had a decent answer to that question either, just nonsensical gibberish about "god" and "religion", what a surprise when discussing MARRIAGE...)
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Message 1316375 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 9:31:16 UTC

Ah. Your ex. Your current's ex. Your parents. The church is there to do what you say...

I have had the pleasure of meeting both Es's parents and they are thoroughly nice and decent people, so I am rather confused as to your comment as well.

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Message 1316380 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 11:12:14 UTC


No mandate

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Message 1316448 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 17:04:11 UTC - in response to Message 1316375.

Ah. Your ex. Your current's ex. Your parents. The church is there to do what you say...

I have had the pleasure of meeting both Es's parents and they are thoroughly nice and decent people, so I am rather confused as to your comment as well.

I think we are all confused about Guy's position.

He seems to think that the Church's mandate applies to everyone and trumps all.
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Message 1316460 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 17:39:51 UTC - in response to Message 1316448.

Since Britain has an official church I believe (Church of England) I myself may be confused to how things are over there, and the possibility of requiring churches to perform ceremonies. In the United States we still have a seperation of church and state, and if one church does not wish to perform ceremonies for same gender couples then there is one down the street that will.


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Message 1316520 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 19:53:00 UTC - in response to Message 1316460.
Last modified: 17 Dec 2012, 19:56:11 UTC

Since Britain has an official church I believe (Church of England) I myself may be confused to how things are over there, and the possibility of requiring churches to perform ceremonies. In the United States we still have a seperation of church and state, and if one church does not wish to perform ceremonies for same gender couples then there is one down the street that will.


Politically the problem in the UK with its offical religion, is that the senior Bishops are members of the House of Lords, and therefore part of the government.

I am not sure if I prefer this system or your "separation". As looking from this side of the pond it would seem that the chances of getting voted in if you are not a member of a church is nigh on impossible. Which by definition means that your goverment, will for the foreseable future, will always be dominated by "Christian thoughts".

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Message 1316536 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 20:21:34 UTC

is that the senior Bishops are members of the House of Lords, and therefore part of the government.

That is not strictly true. They have considerable influence yes, I agree.

The House of Lords is the upper house of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. Like the House of Commons, it meets in the Palace of Westminster.

The House of Lords is independent from, and complements the work of, the House of Commons; the Lords share responsibility for making laws and checking government action. Bills can be introduced into either the House of Lords or the House of Commons and members of the Lords may also take on roles as Government Ministers. The House of Lords has its own support services, separate from the Commons, including the House of Lords Library.


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Message 1316543 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 20:57:03 UTC - in response to Message 1316536.

is that the senior Bishops are members of the House of Lords, and therefore part of the government.

That is not strictly true. They have considerable influence yes, I agree.

The House of Lords is the upper house of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. Like the House of Commons, it meets in the Palace of Westminster.

The House of Lords is independent from, and complements the work of, the House of Commons; the Lords share responsibility for making laws and checking government action. Bills can be introduced into either the House of Lords or the House of Commons and members of the Lords may also take on roles as Government Ministers. The House of Lords has its own support services, separate from the Commons, including the House of Lords Library.



What's not strictly true?

the Lords share responsibility for making laws
So therefore by extension Bishops are at least partially responsible for the laws.

Bills can be introduced into either the House of Lords
Therefore Bishops could introduce bills and they might get passed.

members of the Lords may also take on roles as Government Ministers.
It might have not happened recently but there has been times when the clergy filled a lot of important positions, mainly because they were the educated class.

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Message 1316548 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 21:21:20 UTC - in response to Message 1316543.

It might have not happened recently but there has been times when the clergy filled a lot of important positions, mainly because they were the educated class.


Yep, & it's a shame this isn't done more often.....He lost his head
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Message 1316634 - Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 0:22:09 UTC

More laws to be changed?
Gay marriage: divorces over adultery face legal challenge

Message 1316641 - Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 0:38:20 UTC - in response to Message 1316448.
Last modified: 21 Mar 2014, 18:44:07 UTC

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Message 1316677 - Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 3:43:59 UTC - in response to Message 1316634.

More laws to be changed?
Gay marriage: divorces over adultery face legal challenge


In California virtually every divorce is due to "irreconcilable differences".
They STILL get ugly. But it sweeps away a lot of who did what with whom.
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Message 1316703 - Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 5:45:09 UTC - in response to Message 1316634.

More laws to be changed?
Gay marriage: divorces over adultery face legal challenge

Does that mean if a man's wife cheats on him with another woman, she can't be divorced on the grounds of adultery?
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Message 1316726 - Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 7:04:37 UTC - in response to Message 1316703.

More laws to be changed?
Gay marriage: divorces over adultery face legal challenge

Does that mean if a man's wife cheats on him with another woman, she can't be divorced on the grounds of adultery?

I have a feeling that the lawyers will get round it by saying the act of cheating is "unreasonable grounds".

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Message 1316772 - Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 10:22:54 UTC

"Irreconcilable differences" is the traditional way that an amicable divorce is usually settled. There also used to be a rule that if you lived apart for 5 years or more, then one partner could divorce the other regardless of the others wishes.

It gets nasty when same gender or not, when one side says I have found someone better than you, and the other side out of spite says right, if you couldn't be happy with me. I'll make sure you aren't happy with them. At the end of the day it's always the kids that lose out.

One point that hasn't come up yet, is should same gender couples be allowed to adopt, or enter into a surrogate arrangement. The case of Elton John comes to mind where everyone accepted his personal life had no bearing upon his musical career, but they courted controversy by their adoption.

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Message 1316925 - Posted: 19 Dec 2012, 0:52:13 UTC - in response to Message 1316772.
Last modified: 19 Dec 2012, 0:54:13 UTC

"Irreconcilable differences" is the traditional way that an amicable divorce is usually settled. There also used to be a rule that if you lived apart for 5 years or more, then one partner could divorce the other regardless of the others wishes.

It gets nasty when same gender or not, when one side says I have found someone better than you, and the other side out of spite says right, if you couldn't be happy with me. I'll make sure you aren't happy with them. At the end of the day it's always the kids that lose out.

One point that hasn't come up yet, is should same gender couples be allowed to adopt, or enter into a surrogate arrangement. The case of Elton John comes to mind where everyone accepted his personal life had no bearing upon his musical career, but they courted controversy by their adoption.



Interesting you should bring that up. I was in a common law relationship with another woman when my niece moved in with me. Among others, the child welfare people of both British Columbia and Alberta signed off on it without even a raised eyebrow, AFAIK.

Though I am no longer involved in that (or any) relationship, I have been openly Bi for some time now and it wasn't any sort of issue when I formally adopted Allie.
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Message 1317067 - Posted: 19 Dec 2012, 12:08:40 UTC
Last modified: 19 Dec 2012, 12:18:48 UTC

Hi Kenzie,

Firstly, I didn't know that you had formally adopted Allie. Initially it was thought that it was a temporary move to give her parents some personal space. I'm glad to hear that she has settled down with you in the long term. I can't imagine that there would have been an issue with your personal relationship at the time, because Allie was a grown up teenager who would have understood the environment she was moving into, and could make her own decision upon that.

The case of Elton John and his partner is rather different in that they adopted a baby, via a surrogate mother, and if reports are true, the second child by the same mother is due in the Spring. The concerns are that this young boy is being raised in a day to day situation which doesn't include his natural mother, or much female input. Most psychologists agree that being brought up in a stable, traditional, two parent family unit, is by far the best start in life.

Allie would have already got that during her formative years, and therefore a gay or bi environment would not have had any detrimental effect upon her development. So BC and AB wouldn't, and shouldn't, have had an issue. I've also known you for long enough to be sure, that you wouldn't for one moment have entered into any arrangement that wasn't for her best interests.

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