Same Gender Marriage

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Message 1315872 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 4:08:12 UTC

History review: This subject fell before in a flame thread when name calling and assertions of interspecie relationships became the main topic. I have yet to hear anyone assert they can confirm an animal agreed to marry. I have yet to see one sign a legal document nor display understanding of one. Minors while definately sentient are also not qualified under the law to make such declarations.

Apparently consenting adults is a difficult concept for some to understand.
As is live and let live.
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Message 1315907 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 8:22:58 UTC

Clearly I've misunderstood the topic of the thread. :( My bad.

I thought it was about gay marriage, but now Guy is going on about God, and not just any God, but the Catholic God. If someone could please fill me in on the actual topic of this thread because I think I've missed something.

thanks.
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Message 1315996 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 13:25:23 UTC - in response to Message 1315969.  
Last modified: 16 Dec 2012, 13:45:41 UTC

Also, these days after the kids, have hopefully, left home the parents can still look forward to 30 years more life.
So if they now have different ideas on where their lives are going and they are married divorce is a "better" option. If they have only lived together then the divorce costs are avoided.
Of course you do get the opposite, one of my ex-sister-in-laws got married after the kids left home.

On subject, I don't really understand same sex relationships, but don't see any reason to object to them. I do think that legally they should have the same rights as anybody else, but also understand if religions don't want to perform the ceremony.

In countries like Cyprus tho only offical form of marriage is the civil license. It can be performed in church by a registered church offical, it does not have to be the priest. But if the registered official isn't there the marriage is not lawful.
So if your innocent daughter went on holiday to Ayios Nikolaos and comes home pregnant, and says "It's okay Daddy, we got married beforehand." double check.
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Message 1316143 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 18:22:18 UTC - in response to Message 1315924.  

Es, the subject remains as in the thread title. Same gender, same sex, or gay marriage. I think religion does have a a part to play because unless I'm wrong, most religions do not go along with it, whereas modern society is starting to accept it. Guy is always going to be Guy in the same way that ID is always going to be ID, and likewise others. You've been around long enough to know to post around them :-)

Thanks Chris, I originally thought the topic was gay marriage, but then he kept going on about forcing the Church to recognise gay marriage, so I though I had misunderstood the topic of the thread.
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Message 1316148 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 18:30:44 UTC - in response to Message 1315969.  

50 years ago married couples stayed together either for the sake of the kids, or because society frowned upon divorce. There were many very unhappy people trapped in relationships that for one reason or another, they couldn't escape from. There were also "shotgun Marriages" to give an as yet unborn child, an acceptable start in life. Today in the 21C, Society is more enlightened and tolerant of broken marriages and relationships, and any stigma of unmarried mothers. The knock-on effect of all this is a significant increase in people just simply living together.

Why get married at all if it's likely to end in a messy divorce, with money going to lawyers to sort out possessions, maintenance, and visiting rights. Why indeed. Then again pre-nup agreements aren't exactly romantic are they? These days with the laws upon co-habiting and Common Law partners changing, people have as much security by remaining unmarried. But of course, the various governments in the UK get lambasted regularly for not supporting the institution of marriage, and get accused for the decline in moral standards.

I am not sure why it is the governments place to enforce moral standards. I can understand an argument to do with the welfare of the child, but those things can be protected without having anything to with marriage. I can understand it as a legal way to make a couple a 'family ', with the same rights that family has. This makes sense to me and as such should apply to all families, whether mixed gender or same gender.

I also think your argument as to why people don't want to get married makes total sense. I am very, very glad that I didn't ever marry my ex. It was nightmare enough separating from him without that extra stress. Looking back and seeing how badly my ex behaved and how disgustingly my currents partner's ex wife behaved (willing to destroy the children to get their own way) I realise how lucky I was in the adult way my own parents behaved when they divorced.

Getting married whether in church, or a Civil ceremony in a Registry Office, is basically a public declaration of two peoples love for each other. It is a personal thing, and should not be because of pressure from the family, or of one partner. That should apply equally to same gender couples, although the church teachings are currently anti it.

I don't know why anyone would want to be part of a church that doesn't welcome them and respect them.
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Message 1316295 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 2:15:49 UTC - in response to Message 1316231.  

Ah. Your ex. Your current's ex. Your parents. The church is there to do what you say...

Now I understand. Rest assured, I'll quit haranguing you from now on.

My ex has a diagnosed mental illness that makes him very difficult to deal with. Don't understand your comment on my parents, but as my mother posts here, perhaps you can explain it to her?

The church does not figure in my life, so again your comment makes no sense.
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Message 1316317 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 4:55:46 UTC - in response to Message 1315996.  

In countries like Cyprus tho only offical form of marriage is the civil license. It can be performed in church by a registered church offical, it does not have to be the priest. But if the registered official isn't there the marriage is not lawful.
So if your innocent daughter went on holiday to Ayios Nikolaos and comes home pregnant, and says "It's okay Daddy, we got married beforehand." double check.

In my country the only legal marriage is made through a civil license, and that license is only granted a by a peace jury. There is no church or other kind of organization allowed to give that license.
If you want to get married through the church, the church will ask you to show the civilian marriage license before giving you the sacrament.

I guess that's why it seems so weird for me all this thread.
As the law about marriage has nothing to do with the sacrament, there is not state assertions over the church. The state allows people of the same gender to get married, the church, as allways dont. The state allows people to divorce, the church as allways, dont. The state allow aborts (on same cases), the church as allways dont... Nothing in the laws made by the men is forcing or changing what the religions do or believe...
I guess the main issue here is that some people thinks that the only meanning of the word "marriage" is the religious one... For me, marriage have two meanings, one in the legal/social context: "agreement between two individuals" and another in the religious context: "sacrament in which God bless the bonding between a man and a woman".
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Message 1316323 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 5:17:42 UTC - in response to Message 1316317.  

I knew that other countries also had the ruling that the "State Marriage" is the only legal marriage. But Cyprus was the only country I was familiar enough with to know I could quote Facts.
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Message 1316342 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 7:02:22 UTC - in response to Message 1315924.  

Es, the subject remains as in the thread title. Same gender, same sex, or gay marriage. I think religion does have a a part to play because unless I'm wrong, most religions do not go along with it, whereas modern society is starting to accept it. Guy is always going to be Guy in the same way that ID is always going to be ID, and likewise others. You've been around long enough to know to post around them :-)

I think that marriage is separate from religion. Yes most people get married at churches, but it is a LEGAL joining, so the distinction needs to be clear. Marriage need not be religious.
With that said, why do the rules of any religion have to apply to marriage? Marriage is not a religion specific thing, so why are people applying specific religious values to marriage?

Bah.

As others have mentioned, I don't know why some people care what other people do in their homes... How does it affect you? (No one has ever had a decent answer to that question either, just nonsensical gibberish about "god" and "religion", what a surprise when discussing MARRIAGE...)
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Message 1316448 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 17:04:11 UTC - in response to Message 1316375.  

Ah. Your ex. Your current's ex. Your parents. The church is there to do what you say...

I have had the pleasure of meeting both Es's parents and they are thoroughly nice and decent people, so I am rather confused as to your comment as well.

I think we are all confused about Guy's position.

He seems to think that the Church's mandate applies to everyone and trumps all.
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Message 1316460 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 17:39:51 UTC - in response to Message 1316448.  

Since Britain has an official church I believe (Church of England) I myself may be confused to how things are over there, and the possibility of requiring churches to perform ceremonies. In the United States we still have a seperation of church and state, and if one church does not wish to perform ceremonies for same gender couples then there is one down the street that will.


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Message 1316520 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 19:53:00 UTC - in response to Message 1316460.  
Last modified: 17 Dec 2012, 19:56:11 UTC

Since Britain has an official church I believe (Church of England) I myself may be confused to how things are over there, and the possibility of requiring churches to perform ceremonies. In the United States we still have a seperation of church and state, and if one church does not wish to perform ceremonies for same gender couples then there is one down the street that will.


Politically the problem in the UK with its offical religion, is that the senior Bishops are members of the House of Lords, and therefore part of the government.

I am not sure if I prefer this system or your "separation". As looking from this side of the pond it would seem that the chances of getting voted in if you are not a member of a church is nigh on impossible. Which by definition means that your goverment, will for the foreseable future, will always be dominated by "Christian thoughts".
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Message 1316543 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 20:57:03 UTC - in response to Message 1316536.  

is that the senior Bishops are members of the House of Lords, and therefore part of the government.

That is not strictly true. They have considerable influence yes, I agree.

The House of Lords is the upper house of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. Like the House of Commons, it meets in the Palace of Westminster.

The House of Lords is independent from, and complements the work of, the House of Commons; the Lords share responsibility for making laws and checking government action. Bills can be introduced into either the House of Lords or the House of Commons and members of the Lords may also take on roles as Government Ministers. The House of Lords has its own support services, separate from the Commons, including the House of Lords Library.



What's not strictly true?

the Lords share responsibility for making laws
So therefore by extension Bishops are at least partially responsible for the laws.

Bills can be introduced into either the House of Lords
Therefore Bishops could introduce bills and they might get passed.

members of the Lords may also take on roles as Government Ministers.
It might have not happened recently but there has been times when the clergy filled a lot of important positions, mainly because they were the educated class.
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Message 1316548 - Posted: 17 Dec 2012, 21:21:20 UTC - in response to Message 1316543.  

It might have not happened recently but there has been times when the clergy filled a lot of important positions, mainly because they were the educated class.


Yep, & it's a shame this isn't done more often.....He lost his head
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Message 1316634 - Posted: 18 Dec 2012, 0:22:09 UTC

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Message boards : Politics : Same Gender Marriage


 
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