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Message 1315690 - Posted: 15 Dec 2012, 19:22:17 UTC
Last modified: 21 Mar 2014, 18:37:01 UTC

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Message 1315692 - Posted: 15 Dec 2012, 19:23:55 UTC

In for a penny in for a pound ....

"I'm also not happy with their support of gay marriage."

Yes I did say that. As I have said I have no problem with gay or same gender relationships, but it is traditionally only the 10% minority of society that wish to live in that way. As an ordinary dead boring straight bloke, I don't fully understand it, but I'm happy to live and let live.

By suporting Gay Marriage the Lib Dems are in danger of losing voters. I have heard people say that "there is enough of it about these days as it is, we don't need to encourage it." I wouldn't go as far as that my self though. Politically I think they are shooting themselves in the foot, and personally you already have my views.

If gay people are accepted in society and are allowed "civil" partnerships and all the rights associated with that, it seems strange that one organisation, the Church, can deny them those same rights.

They have no choice Bernie, they are hamstrung by the Bibles teachings which are the cornerstone of their faith.

No not fierce arguments, more a strong disagreement of views. Looking back on these few posts we are almost in agreement that it is the church that is the problem. And I accept that it is my age group that is still lumbered with their outdated views.

Oh and by the way, we have a number of women priests around my way and jolly good they are too, I would like to see more of them.

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Message 1315752 - Posted: 15 Dec 2012, 21:41:25 UTC - in response to Message 1315692.

In for a penny in for a pound ....

"I'm also not happy with their support of gay marriage."

Yes I did say that. As I have said I have no problem with gay or same gender relationships, but it is traditionally only the 10% minority of society that wish to live in that way. As an ordinary dead boring straight bloke, I don't fully understand it, but I'm happy to live and let live.

By suporting Gay Marriage the Lib Dems are in danger of losing voters. I have heard people say that "there is enough of it about these days as it is, we don't need to encourage it." I wouldn't go as far as that my self though. Politically I think they are shooting themselves in the foot, and personally you already have my views.

If gay people are accepted in society and are allowed "civil" partnerships and all the rights associated with that, it seems strange that one organisation, the Church, can deny them those same rights.

They have no choice Bernie, they are hamstrung by the Bibles teachings which are the cornerstone of their faith.

No not fierce arguments, more a strong disagreement of views. Looking back on these few posts we are almost in agreement that it is the church that is the problem. And I accept that it is my age group that is still lumbered with their outdated views.

Oh and by the way, we have a number of women priests around my way and jolly good they are too, I would like to see more of them.


I thought it was a Christian church. Christ makes no comment on homosexuality.
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Message 1315755 - Posted: 15 Dec 2012, 21:53:12 UTC - in response to Message 1315690.

Well I guess I had it all wrong then.

I thought the purpose of marriage was to produce offspring,

Guess what, gays can do this.

to work as a team to raise those offspring to be productive members of society that has order,

They can do this to.

and to fulfill natural human desires.

Like love? Companionship? If you knew anything about biology you might be surprised to find that humans aren't the only species to be naturally gay.

It's natural. Deal with it.

If it's purely about gaining wealth, I went about it all wrong.

Those are its foundations.

Government can take care of raising the offspring as a result of unmarried breeders trying to fulfill their natual human desires.

This sentence doesn't actually make any sense to me. You seemed to have briefly parted way with rational thought.

Nobody needs anybody in their life to trust as long as government is always there for them.

Again, you are just making random statements that have no connection with any of your assertions. This is confusing to the reader.

And who are we to deny anything some people pursue as their natural human desires as long as it's done consentually and doesn't deny other's their rights and freedoms?

Exactly

"Same gender marriage" is an oxymoron.

Do you know what oxymoron means?

What about "interspecies marriage," or "objectum marriage," or "polygamy," or "polyandry?"

I thought you said marriage should be consensual? How can an animal or an object consent?

Polygamy and polyandry seems like hard work to me.

It's not about marriage here or there, it's about the discrimination. Do away with marriage and you do away with discrimination.

Meh. I don't care either way. Marry, not marry. Here in Canada I am protected by the law. I get all the rights of being married without some stupid expensive ceremony. I get the rights of the next of kin and I get a say of whether to turn off his life support or not if he ever gets into a nasty accident. The only reason I have to get married is because he has his little heart set on it.

What you need to ask yourself Guy. Is why do you care so much what other people do. It has absolutely no effect on you whatsoever. No one is going to force you to marry another man just because gay marriage is legal. Why on earth do you even care???
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Message 1315756 - Posted: 15 Dec 2012, 21:54:40 UTC

I thought it was a Christian church. Christ makes no comment on homosexuality.


Unfortunately the Bible does, or does it?

The Bible refers to homosexuality several times, and has historically been interpreted as condemning the practice. In the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, however, the extent to which the Bible mentions the subject and whether or not it is condemned, has become the subject of debate.
Passages in the Old Testament book Leviticus prohibit "lying with mankind as with womankind" and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah have historically been interpreted as condemning homosexuality, as have several Pauline passages. Other interpreters, however, maintain that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, arguing any of several points: (i) that the passages yield different meanings if placed in historical context, for instance the historical interpretation of Sodom's sins as being other than homosexuality; (ii) there may be questions surrounding the translation of rare or unusual words in the passages that some interpret as referring to homosexuals; (iii) both the Old Testament and New Testament contain passages that describe same-sex relationships; and/or (iv) that loving and committed relationships are not condemned in the passages.
All of these assertions are disputed by more conservative scholars, however.

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Message 1315768 - Posted: 15 Dec 2012, 22:24:33 UTC
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Message 1315872 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 4:08:12 UTC

History review: This subject fell before in a flame thread when name calling and assertions of interspecie relationships became the main topic. I have yet to hear anyone assert they can confirm an animal agreed to marry. I have yet to see one sign a legal document nor display understanding of one. Minors while definately sentient are also not qualified under the law to make such declarations.

Apparently consenting adults is a difficult concept for some to understand.
As is live and let live.
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Message 1315907 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 8:22:58 UTC

Clearly I've misunderstood the topic of the thread. :( My bad.

I thought it was about gay marriage, but now Guy is going on about God, and not just any God, but the Catholic God. If someone could please fill me in on the actual topic of this thread because I think I've missed something.

thanks.
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Message 1315924 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 9:45:08 UTC

Es, the subject remains as in the thread title. Same gender, same sex, or gay marriage. I think religion does have a a part to play because unless I'm wrong, most religions do not go along with it, whereas modern society is starting to accept it. Guy is always going to be Guy in the same way that ID is always going to be ID, and likewise others. You've been around long enough to know to post around them :-)


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Message 1315951 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 10:57:33 UTC
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Message 1315969 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 11:56:42 UTC
Last modified: 16 Dec 2012, 12:03:45 UTC

50 years ago married couples stayed together either for the sake of the kids, or because society frowned upon divorce. There were many very unhappy people trapped in relationships that for one reason or another, they couldn't escape from. There were also "shotgun Marriages" to give an as yet unborn child, an acceptable start in life. Today in the 21C, Society is more enlightened and tolerant of broken marriages and relationships, and any stigma of unmarried mothers. The knock-on effect of all this is a significant increase in people just simply living together.

Why get married at all if it's likely to end in a messy divorce, with money going to lawyers to sort out possessions, maintenance, and visiting rights. Why indeed. Then again pre-nup agreements aren't exactly romantic are they? These days with the laws upon co-habiting and Common Law partners changing, people have as much security by remaining unmarried. But of course, the various governments in the UK get lambasted regularly for not supporting the institution of marriage, and get accused for the decline in moral standards.

Getting married whether in church, or a Civil ceremony in a Registry Office, is basically a public declaration of two peoples love for each other. It is a personal thing, and should not be because of pressure from the family, or of one partner. That should apply equally to same gender couples, although the church teachings are currently anti it.


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Message 1315972 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 12:06:59 UTC
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Message 1315979 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 12:22:40 UTC

Just WHO here is picking a fight?

I'm not picking a fight with anybody. But if people challenge my views, then I will robustly respond. OK, it maybe in boxing ring terminology, but that is not a fight, that is defending my corner in an adult and intellectual way.

If you come out wearing boxing gloves, then people will respond accordingly.


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Message 1315983 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 12:30:15 UTC - in response to Message 1315979.
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Message 1315985 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 12:33:35 UTC

Okidoki, that is sorted out then :-)

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Message 1315996 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 13:25:23 UTC - in response to Message 1315969.
Last modified: 16 Dec 2012, 13:45:41 UTC

Also, these days after the kids, have hopefully, left home the parents can still look forward to 30 years more life.
So if they now have different ideas on where their lives are going and they are married divorce is a "better" option. If they have only lived together then the divorce costs are avoided.
Of course you do get the opposite, one of my ex-sister-in-laws got married after the kids left home.

On subject, I don't really understand same sex relationships, but don't see any reason to object to them. I do think that legally they should have the same rights as anybody else, but also understand if religions don't want to perform the ceremony.

In countries like Cyprus tho only offical form of marriage is the civil license. It can be performed in church by a registered church offical, it does not have to be the priest. But if the registered official isn't there the marriage is not lawful.
So if your innocent daughter went on holiday to Ayios Nikolaos and comes home pregnant, and says "It's okay Daddy, we got married beforehand." double check.

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Message 1316040 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 15:21:28 UTC

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Message 1316143 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 18:22:18 UTC - in response to Message 1315924.

Es, the subject remains as in the thread title. Same gender, same sex, or gay marriage. I think religion does have a a part to play because unless I'm wrong, most religions do not go along with it, whereas modern society is starting to accept it. Guy is always going to be Guy in the same way that ID is always going to be ID, and likewise others. You've been around long enough to know to post around them :-)

Thanks Chris, I originally thought the topic was gay marriage, but then he kept going on about forcing the Church to recognise gay marriage, so I though I had misunderstood the topic of the thread.
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Message 1316148 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 18:30:44 UTC - in response to Message 1315969.

50 years ago married couples stayed together either for the sake of the kids, or because society frowned upon divorce. There were many very unhappy people trapped in relationships that for one reason or another, they couldn't escape from. There were also "shotgun Marriages" to give an as yet unborn child, an acceptable start in life. Today in the 21C, Society is more enlightened and tolerant of broken marriages and relationships, and any stigma of unmarried mothers. The knock-on effect of all this is a significant increase in people just simply living together.

Why get married at all if it's likely to end in a messy divorce, with money going to lawyers to sort out possessions, maintenance, and visiting rights. Why indeed. Then again pre-nup agreements aren't exactly romantic are they? These days with the laws upon co-habiting and Common Law partners changing, people have as much security by remaining unmarried. But of course, the various governments in the UK get lambasted regularly for not supporting the institution of marriage, and get accused for the decline in moral standards.

I am not sure why it is the governments place to enforce moral standards. I can understand an argument to do with the welfare of the child, but those things can be protected without having anything to with marriage. I can understand it as a legal way to make a couple a 'family ', with the same rights that family has. This makes sense to me and as such should apply to all families, whether mixed gender or same gender.

I also think your argument as to why people don't want to get married makes total sense. I am very, very glad that I didn't ever marry my ex. It was nightmare enough separating from him without that extra stress. Looking back and seeing how badly my ex behaved and how disgustingly my currents partner's ex wife behaved (willing to destroy the children to get their own way) I realise how lucky I was in the adult way my own parents behaved when they divorced.

Getting married whether in church, or a Civil ceremony in a Registry Office, is basically a public declaration of two peoples love for each other. It is a personal thing, and should not be because of pressure from the family, or of one partner. That should apply equally to same gender couples, although the church teachings are currently anti it.

I don't know why anyone would want to be part of a church that doesn't welcome them and respect them.
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Message 1316231 - Posted: 16 Dec 2012, 22:18:10 UTC
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