Dark Energy?

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Message 1365324 - Posted: 7 May 2013, 1:55:43 UTC

Does anyone know how wide the universe is? The most accurate age estimate I have heard is 13.75 billion years, so that would be 27.5 billion light years in diameter. How much is space expansion, and how much is what we would expect?

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Message 1365327 - Posted: 7 May 2013, 2:34:51 UTC - in response to Message 1365324.  

The Universe is 56 billion light years across. It is finite but unbounded
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Message 1365422 - Posted: 7 May 2013, 13:36:54 UTC - in response to Message 1365408.  

It is finite but unbounded

Can't have it both ways!

Expand brain to accept this concept.

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Message 1365431 - Posted: 7 May 2013, 14:04:27 UTC - in response to Message 1365425.  
Last modified: 7 May 2013, 14:16:54 UTC

Try this. The surface of a balloon is finite and unbounded in two dimensions. If you head out on a geodesic (i.e. a "straight" line in two dimensions) line you come back around to where you started. Space is expanding but there is nothing outside of it. Since mass tells space how to bend (gravity for youse proles) then I surmise that space is curved back on itself perhaps in a sphere. In the future we may find this very slight curvature--Euclid my have been slightly off and that may be why our math causes confusion at the very small and by induction the very large arenas,

Blow up the balloon a little more and it is still finite and unbounded in 2 dimensions. Here the surface of the balloon represents all of the space in the Universe--it is getting larger but thats all the space that there is.

Are we expanding into another dimension ?? Can we go North of the North Pole ??

Hard to grasp perhaps; but, ask yourself what is North of the North Pole??

Another good, arrogant scientific ?? rant by Daddio
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Message 1365572 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 0:46:25 UTC - in response to Message 1365445.  
Last modified: 8 May 2013, 0:50:01 UTC

Chris,

Volume is a 3 dimensional concept. The surface of a balloon is 2 dimensional. There are only two dimensions on the surface of a sphere hence longitude and latitude. I asked you to visualize a 2-dimensional world so that you could see by analogy what I was talking about.

Perhaps you should read the book 'Flatlander" or watch some of the Flatlander -type videos on the Web.

If there were no space other than that created by the expansion of the universe then there is no space outside of the universe. By thinking about the balloon there is no surface other than that on the balloon and when it expands there is more space but still finite and unbounded in 2 dimensions.

Tough things to visualize but try to see the analogy.

The mobius strip has only one side. If the universe were shaped like it then you could tunnel thru and shorten your journey. Think of an ant crawling along the strip. If he ate a hole in the strip he could shorten his path along the surface.
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Message 1365580 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 2:36:49 UTC - in response to Message 1365574.  

William you're trying to engage someone who doesn't even have a concept of what the Hubble Constant means.
Save your breath.

@Chris, it can't be described in English, only in math.

Or try William's analogy in 12 dimensions and you can only go one direction in one of those dimensions, call that one time.

Maybe this is a way to think of it in English. We experience X, Y, and Z. We are fixed in T, it zips along at C for us. X, Y and Z are finite for any given T, but are of infinite extent.

Or how about thinking of this from the point of a photon. As the photon moves at C, time is still for it. So send on on a journey from here and now. Here and now the observable universe is about 14 billion old. So check back with the photon in about 15 billion years. For it time hasn't passed, so the universe has not gotten bigger, yet it now is farther away from where it started than the age of the universe. Neat trick.

It is finite and unbounded at the same time.

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Message 1365613 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 5:30:27 UTC

The implications of dark energy see :

Fabric of the Cosmos by professor Brain Green episode 3 Qantum Leap

The short answer is Multiverse !!!!!

10 to the power of -187 I believe is the energy of dark energy but just watch the program as I probly got it wrong
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Message 1365654 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 7:23:23 UTC - in response to Message 1365633.  

Quantum Leap

Learn how to post links Glenn.


I wasn't posting a link and if I had you would not have able able to watch it from where you are as I would have posted http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/
not youtube
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Message 1365674 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 8:08:45 UTC - in response to Message 1365654.  

I've watched it. Two minor notes: the first idea of associating a wave to a particle is due to Louis de Broglie . It has recently been revived by the "pilot wave" theory of David Bohm which goes against the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory due to Niels Bohr.
The second s related to teleportation. I am aware of photon teleportation experiments done by prof. Anton Zeilinger in the Canary islands. I am not aware of experiments including protons in Hawaii. Can you give any reference?
Tullio
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Message 1365679 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 8:23:11 UTC - in response to Message 1365674.  

Sorry Tullio I must have got the place wrong then still got a sore head from being to drunk and falling over my coffee table Monday got 1 big shiner(black eye)if you say Canary islands then your right . Interesting show thou opens up a whole can of worms the Forth in the 4th episode is muliverse but I understand you are not liking that idea but I would be interested in your thoughts about it
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Message 1365686 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 8:34:12 UTC - in response to Message 1365682.  

Quantum Leap

Learn how to post links Glenn.


I wasn't posting a link and if I had you would not have able able to watch it from where you are as I would have posted http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/
not youtube


You're right Glenn you never post links.
The fact that i could do a search for the video you referenced and post
a link to that video means that you could have done so too.
If you want others to follow your ruminations you should at least make it easy for them.


sorry mate but I don't use or beleive the stuff on Youtube but In future i'll do ok
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Message 1365690 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 8:50:13 UTC - in response to Message 1365679.  

Sorry Tullio I must have got the place wrong then still got a sore head from being to drunk and falling over my coffee table Monday got 1 big shiner(black eye)if you say Canary islands then your right . Interesting show thou opens up a whole can of worms the Forth in the 4th episode is muliverse but I understand you are not liking that idea but I would be interested in your thoughts about it

I think the multiverse idea is not supported by any experimental evidence. As to the "pilot wave" theory, there was a BOINC project about it led by prof. Mike Towler of Cambridge University, and I downloaded a slide presentation called "The return of pilot waves", very interesting on the history of quantum mechanics. Not only Einstein, but also Schroedinger was against the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. Then the BOINC project disappeared and I know nothing about prof. Towler except that he houses a summer school in a former monastery in a village called Valico di Sotto (or di Sopra) in the Alpi Apuane, Tuscany, Italy, a beautiful place in the mountains near Lucca (where my son works) and the sea.
Tullio
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Message 1365698 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 9:40:53 UTC - in response to Message 1365697.  

[quote]
So dream on , shine on you crazy diamond.




Gone Fishing please explain ??

I did ask Tullio for his thoughts and I think that was not called for


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Message 1365699 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 9:45:21 UTC - in response to Message 1365697.  

The BOINC project was called QuantumFIRE and is still listed in my BOINCstats, together with AQUA@home (on quantum computers) and other deceased projects. There is a number of quantum physicists leaning to the mystical (the author of "The Tao of Physics" is an example), since quantum theory seems to adhere more to Buddhist ideas than to western rationalism. Even Murray Gell-Mann referred to the Buddhist "eightfold way" when he discovered the SU(3) symmetry of quarks.
Tullio
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Message 1365706 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 10:36:37 UTC - in response to Message 1365704.  


i can't believe that i had to explain that to anyone.


that is why I asked for a please explain it sounded like you where being rude
I like pink floyd but I do not know the names of there songs had you written it like your last post I mite not have thought you where throwing insults
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Message 1365717 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 11:14:03 UTC

all sweet mate
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Message 1365725 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 11:46:06 UTC - in response to Message 1365722.  

Funny how you both talk of Buddhism after I watched the episode on multiverse one of the first things I thought about was " hey maybe that would explain reincarnation " I always had a problem with it ,I wondered where are all the people coming from if you get what I mean not that I know very much about Buddhist's .It's the 4th episode if your interested in watching it
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Message 1365775 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 16:40:37 UTC

I've been fascinated by the books of Roger Penrose, a British theoretical physicist, on the role of quantum mechanics in understanding the brain/mind relationship. They are "The emperor's new mind" and "Shadows of the mind". I was bold enough to send him an unpublished paper of mine titled "The coherent brain" and he was kind enough to read it and answer back that it was "very interesting".
I consider this as a prize and have kept his letter from the Mathematics Institute of Oxford University.
Tullio
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Message 1365785 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 16:52:32 UTC - in response to Message 1365778.  

I'm impressed !


I was too. I sent the paper to him and went skiing for a week. When I came back I found his letter in the mailbox. Encouraged by this I sent the same paper to two Italian physicists who knew me and they never bothered to answer even by saying the phrase "you are mad".
Tullio
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Message 1365882 - Posted: 8 May 2013, 22:39:42 UTC - in response to Message 1365785.  

I'm impressed !


I was too. I sent the paper to him and went skiing for a week. When I came back I found his letter in the mailbox. Encouraged by this I sent the same paper to two Italian physicists who knew me and they never bothered to answer even by saying the phrase "you are mad".
Tullio


Maybe a bit of professional jealousy .......hehe
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