WASTING MY TIME?

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Profile dancer42
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Message 1309817 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 16:25:47 UTC - in response to Message 1309772.  

The ego and self-importance of some people is surfacing again (maybe it never went under) with the ridicule of people without a green star. It is quite apparent that we each contribute resources to this project, those who are computing continuously. I'm sorry I have to remind you of that. Most of this community's PC's no longer waste energy all night as they did when the project started, with automatic sleep mode, etc. So we choose to contribute a portion of our energy bucks on S@H. Isn't that enough? Many of us go out and update our hardware periodically in order to "keep our stats up". That is a contribution as well, assuming our work is useful and appreciated. Unless I'm missing something, it is at that point the community recedes back and let's the S@H work its way. Pretty much that is where I am now.

There are a number of members who draw more out the project that the typical member, and that is fine. The get invovled with software development, networking gestalt learning, and raw competitive computing. More power to them, but most of the time the satisfaction they derive they derive "for free" and independent of S@H's mission. Obviously, I don't know all/any of you so you can speak for yourself. But, for example, the stat-monsters I read about here are really into themselves when everything is analyzed, not into the stated S@H mission.

Then there is the question of what is S@H's mission and how should the work be evaluated or critiqued. This is a personal question because no one is robbing my meager wealth (by way of big bro's taxes) and paying it out to S@H in a visible way. Putting the question of mission aside (because I think the project has been confused on that score for a while) it seems that when ever one critiques things, the fan boys come out and pounce on the raw meat. Ignoring that consquence, I will merely ask: what has S@H actually accomplished. I don't see much. A paper at a conference once in a long while is not much. They tend to be engineering or PR papers and not fundamental science. Perhaps I missed something but the "science" listed on the homepage is years old and not "fundamental" or results oriented. So, what is going on with all these wu's we compute? Nothing. How does that merit grants or contributions? This project is over a decade old; nothing. I don't mean that we should have found ET. But does anybody really use this work for the next step? If so, they are pretty quiet about it. On the other hand, I have personally contributed to and volunteered at a private food bank; the results are obvious. I donate a ham, and a small family goes out the door with a smile on their face. Probably a good use of my money, I conclude. Turning back to S@H, the most common feedback I get when I look (which admittedly I do less and less frequently) is that the server is down, or the network is choked, or some unix software isn't right, ... . You all get the message, I'm sure.

So, whereas, I really respect those who contribute to the project, I really reject the green star concept as classist and devisive.

Looking ahead, the S@H staff are great to do what they do on the shoe-string they have; don't get me wrong. They deserve our thanks and respect. But at some point, a little introspection should be made and strategic thinking should be applied and courses re-charted.


I am one of the people that has been encouraging others to donate and i to would like to clarify what i am saying. If you have a star grate if you don't have a star but crunch grate i have not mentioned stars at all till now.
What i have tried to say is if you belong to a club and can afford it you expect to have to pay dues every once and a while to keep the roof over head and the lights on.
As to what seti has done and what it's mission is, seti's original goal was to ask people to volunteer computer time and resources to search for radio evidence of extra terrestrial life.
seti is what is called pure research because it is not about finding that signal it is about learning about how to look and serendipitously finding things along the way. If folding@home finds a cure for huntington's disease it will be because seti led the way. if the prime numbers primegrid is finding make your banking safer thank seti. If what is learned at cern though lhc@home, it will have been sped up many years because seti is here it is about the cheapest investment to unlocking basic information about the universe there is on this planet and Well worth collecting a little pocket change and sending it every couple of year but feel free to sit on the side line, no one will twist you arm least of all me. I sat on the side line too for a long time and now am playing catch up hopefully by march i can get my contribution to a dollar a month for the time i have used seti what you do is up to you. in any event good crunching and happy holidays to you and crack a smile for no apparent reason it breaks up the day.

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Message 1309827 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 16:40:21 UTC - in response to Message 1309799.  

:) Ok, got it, Chris. One may only post personal, and hopefully objective views if one donates cash. And if one crunches and doesn't say anything, that's ok too. I've been confused on that fine point for 10+ years.

And Mark(?), I certainly did not intend to target you. But, in a nutshell, well meaning attempts to coerce folks to have what someone else thinks is appropriate behavior is too centralized for my taste. People should just give to the cause if it moves them and forget about receiving some sort of pat on the back, or in this case green star.

I'm all in favour of freedom, in the sense of freedom of action and free speech.

But the supply of free WUs is closer to free beer - i.e., they're only free if somebody else is paying.

I support the call for donations at times when our hobby and our search mission is under strain - I've done it before, and I'll do it again. I'm not interested in the slightest by the number of green stars on display, but I am interested (and disappointed) by the numbers on the recent donations page.

Come on, it takes money to keep this show running. If you are a freedom lover, you'd probably prefer that it comes from individual donations rather than coercively from taxpayers. In this week, we've seen that one member of staff voluntarily went to the lab on a national holiday to fix a problem, and there are now signs that someone (whether the same person, or a different one) volunteered to go there before 8 am on a (holiday) Saturday morning. We can't go to the lab and help in person, but we can show our appreciation and contribute in other ways. I'd simply invite free beer lovers to stand their round.
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Message 1309842 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 17:26:07 UTC

I agree with a lot said here, but primarily, whether someone has a green star next to their name should have no bearing on how they are though of or treated. We are all exactly equal green star or not.
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Message 1309867 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 18:17:44 UTC

No green star. Just sitting here waiting patiently.
...and wishing others would do the same.

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Message 1309904 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 20:16:47 UTC - in response to Message 1309772.  



But, for example, the stat-monsters I read about here are really into themselves when everything is analyzed, not into the stated S@H mission.



I'm not arguing with you, but since you put that into print I feel the need to respond. There are no "stats-monsters" here. If anyone were into their stats, there are many projects that "pay" better and many projects that are more easily dominated. Every single person who crunches SETI@Home work is devoted to the project. If not, they are foolishly wasting their ability to "gain stats."

What you may be seeing is some extremely friendly competition from people who are a little OCD. I've never, ever seen anyone say, "Look at me! I'm #1. The rest of you are inferior to me!"




So, whereas, I really respect those who contribute to the project, I really reject the green star concept as classist and devisive.


Now, I want to argue. I think you are looking at it wrong.

It takes so very, very little to get that star that anyone, and I do mean *anyone,* who participates can get a star if they want one. We are all exactly equal in our ability to get a green star. Notice that there is no way to tell whether someone gave $10 or $10,000 by looking at their star. I suspect that was by design.

Think of it like the satisfaction you get from giving a ham instead of receiving one. Unless you are donating that anonymously somehow, someone smiles at you and says "thank you," when they receive your contribution whether it's one ham or a truck full of hams. It's just an acknowledgement that you have contributed to the cause.

It does show each-other who cares enough to support the research beyond running their computer. It's sort-of like a donor appreciation event with punch and star cookies. If there's something wrong with that, you'll have to explain it to me.




But at some point, a little introspection should be made and strategic thinking should be applied and courses re-charted.



There are several new things going-on and several research projects are going-on all at once. Since they are sharing data and infrastructure there's a kind-of gestalt at work. I'd like to know more about what all is going-on and I'm sure, one day, when they have time, they'll give us some details.

If not; well, that's perfectly alright, too. You can't know that the family didn't take the ham home and feed it to the dog.

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Message 1309919 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 20:53:13 UTC - in response to Message 1309904.  

It takes so very, very little to get that star that anyone, and I do mean *anyone,* who participates can get a star if they want one. We are all exactly equal in our ability to get a green star.

Sadly, thats not true. To be able to donate you need a credit card or a PayPal account. In my country the only way to send money to a PayPal account is through a credit card, and the banks do not give credit cards for free. I dont have one because they have a very hard to achieve requisites to give you a "domestic" one and the requisites become plainly impossible for the international cards needed to be able to send money out of the country...

So, Im not able to get a green star, not even if I were wanting to have one.

That said, Im not against the stars, and TBH this concept is not classist neither divisive. It is people that could be classist, and for that people anything can be used to attack others to feel that they are better: "With that miserable [RAC|post count|total credit|age|gender|small "thing"] you should be ashamed"...
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Profile dancer42
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Message 1309922 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 21:01:05 UTC - in response to Message 1309862.  

The ego and self-importance of some people is surfacing again (maybe it never went under) with the ridicule of people without a green star. It is quite apparent that we each contribute resources to this project, those who are computing continuously. I'm sorry I have to remind you of that. Most of this community's PC's no longer waste energy all night as they did when the project started, with automatic sleep mode, etc. So we choose to contribute a portion of our energy bucks on S@H. Isn't that enough? Many of us go out and update our hardware periodically in order to "keep our stats up". That is a contribution as well, assuming our work is useful and appreciated. Unless I'm missing something, it is at that point the community recedes back and let's the S@H work its way. Pretty much that is where I am now.


Ego and self-importance?

Dancer42 is obviously missing my point with this personal attack (Read his complete post).

It's quite simple. Seti@Home is being overwhelmed (among other problems). If many/most of the persons spending time and money on THEIR end, would only contribute a few dollars a year: It may greatly help.

I am truly sorry if asking people to contribute a few dollars a year hit a raw nerve.




hay i am with you i was responding to "PhonAcq"
it does not hurt much to save some pocket change and donate eric and the crew need a new light bulb.
lol DANCER42
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Profile dancer42
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Message 1309933 - Posted: 24 Nov 2012, 21:46:23 UTC

It is not about the star, or even finding the golden signal,it's about looking and exploring,it is about keeping the light's on in one of the most wonderful experiments in the entire history of mankind.
seti has already changed the way science is done.
If you have a neat idea and you can't get funding or time on the university mainframe ask for volunteer's,Seti did it!
so if you can, help, if you can't that is ok.
When seti was started almost everybody said it will never work yet here we are.
we have change and are changing the world every day seti run's,so once again if you can help please do, if you really can't that is alright too.
But at the end of the day please enjoy having changed the world just a little bit.

DANCER42

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Message 1310032 - Posted: 25 Nov 2012, 4:15:53 UTC - in response to Message 1309917.  



Why asking for contributions to seti@home, or any other non-profit institution, would be considered negative is beyond me.



My stars! How can you ask that!?!

With so many thousands of people around, someone always misunderstands and takes offense.

You could say, "Good morning!" and someone's going to point-out that this is an international project and that it's only morning to some of us, and how dare people in ________ think they are the center of the universe and force the rest of us to accept a pleasantry that assumes the superiority of their time-zone. After all, their dark is every bit as good as our light...etc, etc, etc.

Someone always has their panties in a wad.

Don't look now (or ever, when I stop to think about it), but sometimes it's me.


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Message 1310452 - Posted: 26 Nov 2012, 11:29:56 UTC - in response to Message 1307073.  
Last modified: 26 Nov 2012, 11:47:05 UTC


Josef W. Segur wrote

The general idea would be to send 107.374 seconds of raw data from a channel to the host (a 64MiB + overhead super WU) and have the app split it into 256 frequency subbands (MB WUs) plus split into 8 sequential time sections at full bandwidth (AP WUs). The advantage is that single ~64MiB download replaces ~162MiB of downloads for work split server side. Both the raw data and split data use the same 2 bits to represent a complex data point, the savings come from only sending the data once plus far less overhead in the WU header information.


Exactly. By this method you would be distributing more of the processing out to the end-user machines, which is what this project is all about. Should attract Dr. Anderson's attention.

Nobody has addressed validation yet, though.

Tron wrote

Take that a step further and have the Host distribute some the "locally split" WU's


Why on Earth would you want to redistribute these WU? If the end-user machine is big and fast enough to take on a whole raw data unit, it's also big and fast enough to process the WU so generated. Indeed, the main saving is in reducing the bandwidth required at the central servers, by making only one download of the data and one upload of the combined set of results.

The combined results would need to be validated as a unit against the same unit processed by a different end-user. Any disagreement would result in the whole unit being sent out again for a processing by a third user, exactly as is done at present.

So you would reduce the load on the splitter processes and reduce the bandwidth requirement.


Eh, why not perform the validation by hash, through some sort of peer-to-peer validation, and have SETI send each data piece to only one peer unless there are problems?

In other words, send one big data chunk to user #1, (validate by hash), who then forwards it to user #2 who validates it with a hash to SETI. Then they both split it, and cross validate with each other. If they do not match all hashes properly, then they re-split, and compare their first set to their second set and if their first sets match their second sets, but they still don't match each other, then and only then would the SETI project send out another copy of the first big data chunk.

This means that BOINC would have to take on the role of a peer-to-peer data transfer host for project data. I'm not sure how doable this would be, or how secure it could be made to be.
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Message 1310717 - Posted: 27 Nov 2012, 7:37:04 UTC

Did someone say "free beer" ?


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Message 1310732 - Posted: 27 Nov 2012, 11:09:58 UTC - in response to Message 1310717.  
Last modified: 27 Nov 2012, 12:05:19 UTC

Did someone say "free beer" ?


Free beer? I´m second in line!
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Message 1310763 - Posted: 27 Nov 2012, 18:38:51 UTC - in response to Message 1310452.  

This means that BOINC would have to take on the role of a peer-to-peer data transfer host for project data. I'm not sure how doable this would be, or how secure it could be made to be.


I'm sure the security of such a setup is the main concern. Once upon a time the system WAS less secure (if I remember it was pre-BOINC) and data that was closer to raw was handed out...and it didn't take long for a small group of people to start falsifying results and compromising the project in the name of the almighty RAC. I doubt we'll see uncontrolled raw data out in the wild again because of this.
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Message 1310774 - Posted: 27 Nov 2012, 18:57:37 UTC - in response to Message 1310763.  

until seti actually starts looking at the data and showing everyone the results, we all are wasting our time. after almost 14 years they own everyone that. it was, after all, one of the statements made when the ads came out to sign up for seti.
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Message 1310782 - Posted: 27 Nov 2012, 19:13:20 UTC - in response to Message 1310774.  
Last modified: 27 Nov 2012, 19:17:47 UTC

until seti actually starts looking at the data and showing everyone the results, we all are wasting our time. after almost 14 years they own everyone that. it was, after all, one of the statements made when the ads came out to sign up for seti.

Which is what the Near-Time Persistency Checker (NTPCkr) does:

Near-Time Persistency Checker (NTPCkr) Frequently Asked Questions

and has been Publically shown in the past:

Near-Time Persistency Checker: Current Best Candidates by Score

Claggy
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Message 1310785 - Posted: 27 Nov 2012, 19:20:49 UTC

SETI is A Near Time Persistent Donation Accepting Machine for Us One Percenters.

Check, Double Check.

DEMON...Gamma Ray Burst Burning Hot.

May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!
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Message 1310794 - Posted: 27 Nov 2012, 19:36:14 UTC - in response to Message 1310782.  

Near-Time Persistency Checker: Current Best Candidates by Score

Claggy


Well about that...

"The public version of this page is currently offline, as we are still developing large parts of the code."

Again, major problem of Seti@Home. No new information for The Volunteers.

Yes, I DO know about the lack of funding and manpower, and I have patience to wait, but... How many of beginners of Seti@Home does have?...

"This doesn't work, I'll just uninstall it"

How many of those kind of "volunteers" Seti@Home have/had?

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Message 1310874 - Posted: 28 Nov 2012, 0:23:05 UTC - in response to Message 1310794.  

...
Yes, I DO know about the lack of funding and manpower, and I have patience to wait, but... How many of beginners of Seti@Home does have?...

"This doesn't work, I'll just uninstall it"

How many of those kind of "volunteers" Seti@Home have/had?

Stats sites show that there are about 1343k SaH user accounts, and about 153k still active. Just think what we might be doing now if many of those lapsed users had been interested enough to make even one 10 dollar donation rather than simply giving up!

I would guess there's been more users lost because their computer died and they forgot to add SaH on the replacement, though. In Classic days, only about a third of accounts never completed a WU.
                                                                    Joe
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Message 1311007 - Posted: 28 Nov 2012, 13:02:44 UTC - in response to Message 1310874.  

...
Yes, I DO know about the lack of funding and manpower, and I have patience to wait, but... How many of beginners of Seti@Home does have?...

"This doesn't work, I'll just uninstall it"

How many of those kind of "volunteers" Seti@Home have/had?

Stats sites show that there are about 1343k SaH user accounts, and about 153k still active. Just think what we might be doing now if many of those lapsed users had been interested enough to make even one 10 dollar donation rather than simply giving up!

I would guess there's been more users lost because their computer died and they forgot to add SaH on the replacement, though. In Classic days, only about a third of accounts never completed a WU.
                                                                    Joe

From the information on the donations page it looks like the donations average close to $1 per active user. If the donations averaged $10, or even $5, per user that would be a significant amount of money.
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Message 1311110 - Posted: 28 Nov 2012, 18:50:07 UTC

I PM'ed Brad from GPU users to offer assistance last week and still haven't heard anything. *shrug*


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