If ET wrote the Bible, would u read it?

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Message 1294173 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 12:38:50 UTC - in response to Message 1294154.  
Last modified: 12 Oct 2012, 12:39:59 UTC

Yes, we all know that the ability to clone animals has been proved and that cloning human beings is also scientifically possible, and will happen one day. ...

Errr... Isn't that happening already many times each and every day?...

As in when humans and other creatures give birth to twins.

Also note all the research and results for the "nature" or "nurture" arguments surrounding how twins develop. (I consider most likely there is a combination of both, in that some things are 'pre-programmed' and the rest develops dependant upon genetic traits/predisposition and external influence/experience. ... But that is for another thread...)


Keep searchin',
Martin
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Message 1294174 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 12:40:29 UTC - in response to Message 1294166.  

Wake up John. Cloning has become a science fact rather than the science fiction it once was.

However, the one thing that cannot be cloned is the subconscious mind & one's memories.

So should you or I be cloned, they will not be the same as us: They'll be just 2 dumb shells.
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Message 1294177 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 12:55:37 UTC - in response to Message 1294174.  

Wake up John. Cloning has become a science fact rather than the science fiction it once was.

Ahhhhh... yes, this is exactly what i have been saying.


However, the one thing that cannot be cloned is the subconscious mind & one's memories.

So should you or I be cloned, they will not be the same as us: They'll be just 2 dumb shells.

Sirius,
How is a human baby a "dumb shell", to quote your exact words?

If you had noticed, just a few posts back, i explaind to Chris how it works. Its not complex, its easy to understand.

This is what i said to Chris:
Chris,
Ok, so you understand that we can clone a human being, good!. And the clone, lets say King Tut as an example, would be an identical DNA copy of the King Tut that lived in Egypt thousands of years ago.

So todays scientists clone the guy, and, naturally he would be named "Tutankhamun", because we know exactly who he is. And as he grows up, because everyone worldwide knows who he is, he would be raised as royalty. And he would have teachers that would teach him everything about ancient Egypt, and about his previous life. He will get very special treatment because of who he is!

So by the time this cloned King Tut is about 20 years of age, he would know exactly who he is, and he would be one of the most famous celebrities in the world! He would be on every TV show and everyone would revere him. The Egyptians would crown him king!



John.
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Message 1294179 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 13:01:19 UTC - in response to Message 1294177.  

Sorry that won't work as by the time he reached 20, he would be too accustomed to the corruption & if the Egyptians made him their leader, it would not take him long to become another Saddam Hussein!

Think about it, rather than using the bible & "your lost book" as reference points - instead use today's world as that reference point.

If you still fail to grasp the situation, scour the international news for at least a week: - Fundamentalists stuck in the 13th century wanting the 21st century to go back 800 years just so that they can rule that world?

You think the world will let them do that?
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Message 1294186 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 13:18:41 UTC - in response to Message 1294179.  
Last modified: 12 Oct 2012, 13:21:06 UTC

Sorry that won't work as by the time he reached 20, he would be too accustomed to the corruption & if the Egyptians made him their leader, it would not take him long to become another Saddam Hussein!

Think about it, rather than using the bible & "your lost book" as reference points - instead use today's world as that reference point.

If you still fail to grasp the situation, scour the international news for at least a week: - Fundamentalists stuck in the 13th century wanting the 21st century to go back 800 years just so that they can rule that world?

You think the world will let them do that?

Sirius B,
Your niggling over very minor points that only concern my example of King Tut.

Lets try someone more recent, someone that everyone today knows and loves.

Elvis Presley!! Died: August 16, 1977

Now Elvis isn't dead that long, it will be easy peasy to get a DNA sample from his grave. And everybody LOVES Elvis!! You think people won't want to hear Elvis sing those songs again! Elvis Presley WILL LIVE AGAIN! and the whole world will welcome him back with open arms. Elvis will be the King people always wanted him to be.

THIS WILL HAPPEN! and it will happen very soon!

We could stay here naming people all day. We could argue if these people will be accepted or rejected when they are cloned. But the fact remains, this is about to happen, and everyone was told about it in the Bible.

To Quote Jesus Christ:
John 3:7 "You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’"

John 3:7
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Message 1294190 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 13:28:49 UTC - in response to Message 1294186.  
Last modified: 12 Oct 2012, 13:29:08 UTC

You still don't "get it". Elvis gets cloned, would be nice as I enjoyed his music.

However, who's to say that the "Cloned" Elvis wants to be a singer? He might want to be President!

But, if you then state that he can be taught & shown what the original did, wouldn't he then become your puppet?
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Message 1294192 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 13:37:12 UTC - in response to Message 1294190.  
Last modified: 12 Oct 2012, 13:38:52 UTC

You still don't "get it". Elvis gets cloned, would be nice as I enjoyed his music.

However, who's to say that the "Cloned" Elvis wants to be a singer? He might want to be President!

But, if you then state that he can be taught & shown what the original did, wouldn't he then become your puppet?

How is this complex?

Are you a puppet? No your not. So why would Elvis be a puppet? When he is cloned, he can do whatever he wants. If he wants to be a baker, thats his choice. If he wants to do knitting competition's on the weekends, then thats what he will do. But in my personal opinion, knowing what the original Elvis was like, i would imagine he might want to sing an occasional song. But hay, what the heck, maybe he won't. Its irrelevant.

The point is about the resurrection of the dead. The Bible said its going to happen, and i'm pointing out that, in actuality, its about to happen in the next few years! And the vast majority of the world us unaware that its about to happen.

John.
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Message 1294195 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 13:42:24 UTC - in response to Message 1294194.  

At this point I just give up. There is simply no point in trying to discuss anything sensibly with Johnney. I have agreed with him that there seems to be evidence of past ET visits to earth, and that DNA cloning can happen. But as far as the rest of it goes I'm afraid he's off with the fairies. He has these religious fixations that he seems to genuinely believe in, and simply cannot understand why others don't agree with him.

I thought that King Tut was far fetched enough, now we have Elvis Presley ...... Whoever next? Abraham Lincoln?

But the fact remains, this is about to happen, and everyone was told about it in the Bible.

If I came back here in 20 years I'm sure he would still be saying the same thing. I find it all rather sad really. Walks off shaking ones head.


Why Chris? Do you think its not going to happen? Is that it?

John.
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Message 1294196 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 13:43:17 UTC - in response to Message 1294194.  

Yep, same here. Now I understand why the Irish were the butts of many jokes. Just a shame that we all got tarnished with the same brush.
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Message 1294199 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 13:55:33 UTC - in response to Message 1294195.  
Last modified: 12 Oct 2012, 13:59:00 UTC

Do you think its not going to happen? Is that it?

You can get the ingredients of another "Jesus" just by random circumstance. No Divine Intervention or inventions needed.

Does that count as being "born again"?

There are ideas and passions that transcend mere cloned bodies. More significant is what whatever body does. And then also, ideas can have a body and will of their own if known by (enough) people to be exercised and given life...


Keep searchin',
Martin

(Apologies for the backwards ID pun... Ouch! :-) )
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Message 1294208 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 14:18:49 UTC - in response to Message 1294199.  

Do you think its not going to happen? Is that it?

You can get the ingredients of another "Jesus" just by random circumstance. No Divine Intervention or inventions needed.

Does that count as being "born again"?

There are ideas and passions that transcend mere cloned bodies. More significant is what whatever body does. And then also, ideas can have a body and will of their own if known by (enough) people to be exercised and given life...


Keep searchin',
Martin

(Apologies for the backwards ID pun... Ouch! :-) )

Martin,
I don't know what that means?

You are "Martin ML1". I don't know you full name, and it doesn't matter. Martin if you have a brother called Billy, then Billy is Billy, and nobody else. If you have a sister called Mary. Mary is Mary and there will never be another Mary. You are "Martin ML1", and there will never ever ever be another "Martin ML1" no matter how many genetic combinations you go through. So Jesus is the same. There was one Jesus, and only one Jesus. You will never ever ever randomly get the same "Jesus" combination of DNA, ever!

Martin when you die, you will be born again. Or put another way, Martin you will be cloned after you die.

John.
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Message 1294213 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 14:26:27 UTC - in response to Message 1294202.  
Last modified: 12 Oct 2012, 14:27:48 UTC

Oh fer hecks sake, of course it is not going to happen! Only religious nuts believe in that sort of stuff. "It will happen because god told me so". No he didn't, just because you read something in a book that is what you want to believe, you have convinced yourself it is true. But you are too prone to exaggeration and emotional rhetoric to try to get your point across to others.

If you feel it is your mission in life to educate and convert the world, why are you wasting your time here at Seti? Go on a lecture tour somewhere.

Chris,
My understanding of what you said there is that you don't think people can be cloned. Well Chris this is simple science. This is happening right now today with plants and animals. And it will happen with human beings. In a few years, people will go into their local grave yards with mechanical excavators and they will dig up their dead relatives and DNA samples will be taken, and their dead relatives will be cloned, and brought back to life!

This is a scientific certainty! Whether you believe it or not Chris is completely irrelevant, it will happen! You won't have any say in the matter.

John.
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Message 1294219 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 14:44:04 UTC - in response to Message 1294208.  

... There was one Jesus, and only one Jesus. You will never ever ever randomly get the same "Jesus" combination of DNA, ever!

However, there are enough people across the world and across time that although you will not get an exact copy, you will very likely get someone who behaves and acts very similarly to the presumed "Jesus". No God needed for that.


Martin when you die, you will be born again. Or put another way, Martin you will be cloned after you die.

Even if fancifully so, would I know? Or rather, would the clone pick up my mental state and experiences from the moment that I had died?...

You can do that for computers and software. (Hence why I went into computer engineering: get it wrong and you can still hit reboot to get back to get it right. The wet squishy stuff has certain critical thresholds irreversibly leading to "game over"...)

So far however, we are a very long way away from being able to do that with squishy biological wet ware that has died and evaporated!


Keep searchin',
Martin

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Message 1294230 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 15:06:43 UTC - in response to Message 1294219.  
Last modified: 12 Oct 2012, 15:11:14 UTC


Martin when you die, you will be born again. Or put another way, Martin you will be cloned after you die.

Even if fancifully so, would I know? Or rather, would the clone pick up my mental state and experiences from the moment that I had died?...

No, if your cloned, your clone won't have any recollection of the past life. No more than you can remember any of the memories that were in your fathers head the day your father and mother slept together and created you.

But the cloned YOU, will be taught about the YOU that exists today. Using the Elvis example, the cloned Elvis will not remember his previous life. But people WILL teach him about his previous life. And the cloned Elvis can watch all the TV shows and films he made the first time around.



You can do that for computers and software. (Hence why I went into computer engineering: get it wrong and you can still hit reboot to get back to get it right. The wet squishy stuff has certain critical thresholds irreversibly leading to "game over"...)

So far however, we are a very long way away from being able to do that with squishy biological wet ware that has died and evaporated!


Keep searchin',
Martin

Martin we are NOT a long way off from it, wrong! Its about to happen in the next few years.

Just a few days ago, they gave out the 2012 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine to 2 scientists for the discovery of what is known as "iPS cells" or "Induced pluripotent stem cells"; http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/2012/press.html

Martin "iPS cells" are the "key" to human cloning. In the press statement, the Nobel Prize press office don't use the words "Human cloning", and the scientists don't use the words "Human cloning" in their science papers. But thats what it is about! iPS cells allow you to "reset" the clock on any living cell back to the start. In effect, they can take a skin cell and turn it back into an embryonic stem cell, or an embryo. This means we could clone you just by scratching some skin off your finger and reseting the cell to make a brand new "Martin ML1".

This is real, its happening right now. Just most people don't read the latest edition of Nature Genetics or the Journal of Cell Biology.

John.
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Message 1294329 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 17:24:02 UTC - in response to Message 1294230.  

... But the cloned YOU, will be taught about the YOU that exists today. ...


That sounds just like normal parenting. No cloning needed unless you don't like sex with the opposite sex.


Keep searchin',
Martin

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Message 1294377 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 18:12:50 UTC - in response to Message 1294259.  

conclusion:
- yeah probably we have been made by some aliens.
- no there is any 'code' in any copy made then after the original text/book well preserve and which has been written by the original alien who made it.
- yes you can make a new entity from old DNA but still not a clone.
- and no i wont be ressurected after my death. ^^

Michel,
You made some really good points there!

Yes, when you clone someone, its effectively a brand new baby. And just like any new baby, it starts from scratch and learns the alphabet, goes to school, and learns everything from scratch. You are correct, this does give the cloned person a brand new personality from the first guy. So the clone most definitely will be different. BUT!! You can "teach" the cloned person about their first life.

John.
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Message 1294448 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 21:38:58 UTC - in response to Message 1294377.  

conclusion:
- yeah probably we have been made by some aliens.
- no there is any 'code' in any copy made then after the original text/book well preserve and which has been written by the original alien who made it.
- yes you can make a new entity from old DNA but still not a clone.
- and no i wont be ressurected after my death. ^^

Michel,
You made some really good points there!

Yes, when you clone someone, its effectively a brand new baby. And just like any new baby, it starts from scratch and learns the alphabet, goes to school, and learns everything from scratch. You are correct, this does give the cloned person a brand new personality from the first guy. So the clone most definitely will be different. BUT!! You can "teach" the cloned person about their first life.

John.

Which is quite a long way from:

In a few years, people will go into their local grave yards with mechanical excavators and they will dig up their dead relatives and DNA samples will be taken, and their dead relatives will be cloned, and brought back to life!

Why bother with the digger? To get a physical likeness?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1294477 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 23:32:32 UTC - in response to Message 1294108.  

That has always been postulated Robert, that if there were ET visitations in the past then apart from the locals trying to record that for posterity, you would think that they would leave some sort of message that would only be found when that society was sufficiently advanced to recognise it.

The old favourite was a marker of the far side of the moon which wouldn't be found until an unmanned probe went by at the earliest. Haven't found one yet. Parking something at one of the Le Grange points L1 or L2 is another, but we would have found that by now. Ancient stone buildings really don't cut it, nor do religious books, or Kilroy was 'ere type of stuff.

So what would they likely have left as a message, and one that apparently we haven't found yet?

Chris,
Why are the 150 Pyramids down in Egypt not proof that someone was here in the past doing something suspicious?

Remember Chris, no Pharaoh was ever found in a pyramid, so they don't know what the pyramids were built for, yet! ALL the Pharaohs were buried in the valley of the Kings, and carefully "preserved" so at a future date, DNA samples could be extracted and they could be cloned and brought back to life. The Pharaohs WILL live again. And when we clone the Pharaohs, people will revere them and treat them like Kings. They will be Kings again, and they will rule Egypt again!

THE PROOF IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU, if you just wake up and open your eyes!

John.


Really? Are you saying Tut was not found? Are you saying Tut was found outside his pyramid?
And you claimed before that no pyramid was entered before 1900, yet others say that they'd be looted for centuries, and Jedifray's was looted perhaps the most, when Romans actually took it apart, largely, stone by stone, to use the stones for other purposes.
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Message 1294482 - Posted: 12 Oct 2012, 23:43:24 UTC - in response to Message 1294213.  

Oh fer hecks sake, of course it is not going to happen! Only religious nuts believe in that sort of stuff. "It will happen because god told me so". No he didn't, just because you read something in a book that is what you want to believe, you have convinced yourself it is true. But you are too prone to exaggeration and emotional rhetoric to try to get your point across to others.

If you feel it is your mission in life to educate and convert the world, why are you wasting your time here at Seti? Go on a lecture tour somewhere.

Chris,
My understanding of what you said there is that you don't think people can be cloned.


You know that'w NOT what he said.

Time for people to fill out DNCs, just like DNRs?
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Message 1294647 - Posted: 13 Oct 2012, 7:37:55 UTC - in response to Message 1294482.  

Writing the bible would make ET a liar.
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