Immortality: Can we extend human lifespan?

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Profile Johnney Guinness
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Message 1294670 - Posted: 13 Oct 2012, 9:38:30 UTC - in response to Message 1294438.  
Last modified: 13 Oct 2012, 9:40:05 UTC

Considering these forums have had plenty of discussions about whether or not this God 'bloke' exists, and many doubt that he/she/it does, it seems believing in this God is a matter of faith, which means you're preaching gospel from your personal belief system.


As far as becoming immortal is concerned, we have already found ways to extend our lives far longer than in the past, but now we have to figure out how to solve all the problems that go along with old age and our bodies and mind falling apart.

But in no way do I think anyone will be able to live forever. A cloned copy is not an exact duplicate, so even through cloning, each life is a new one and therefore doesn't count as a continuation of the host's life.

Ozzfan,
Just for starters, we are BOTH preaching, your doing it too!! I preach based on the knowledge i have learned, and you do exactly the same thing. Your a preacher too! And its also based on what you "believe" to be correct. So don't think for one minute that your personal knowledge superseeds my personal knowledge. We BOTH study and have a good understanding of many DIFFERENT areas of science. So don't you dare stand on on some high horse and claim that your personal scientific view of the world is any better that someone elses scientific view of the world.

Ozzfan said:
A cloned copy is not an exact duplicate

That's just plain wrong Ozzfan. A cloned copy of a living organism is a 100% perfect duplicate of the original in every possible way. This is the origin of the word clone. To clone something is to duplicate something. A clone is not a close copy, its a 100% perfect copy.

Ozzfan said:
, so even through cloning, each life is a new one and therefore doesn't count as a continuation of the host's life.

This is also wrong, very wrong! You talk a lot of science, but the stuff you preach completely lacks any scientific credibility. It shows a real lack of even the most basic understanding of living cells.

The genes that get passed through from a parent cell to the daughter cell, or seed, are a continuation of the base set of chemical reactions we call life. In other words, the seed or child is a perfect unbroken chain of chemical reactions that has not stopped since the root of that species originally started.

John.
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Message 1294679 - Posted: 13 Oct 2012, 9:50:35 UTC - in response to Message 1294468.  
Last modified: 13 Oct 2012, 9:50:53 UTC

... Anyway, the thread is about Immortality. Every and all angles on the discussion are open here. ...

2783 posts plus all our contributions combined and shuffled could well be tidied up to make your own book. With an appropriate cover, and with suitably big friendly letters on the cover, you could well have something pretty good.

And if the ideas are good enough and explained well enough in a good enough way, and the reviews are controversial/outspoken enough, you could even make "a few Bob".

And if the word gets out to make you famous enough, perhaps your ideas may well achieve a similar immortality to that achieved by various religions. No body needed!

And... The Religion of Guinness is thus born.


It's all just an idea ;-)

Keep searchin',
Martin

Martin,
Thanks again for the positive comments. But the best is yet to come. Think about it Martin, because your aware of the stuff i have discussed here, imagine if i really do have scientific proof to back up all the stuff you have heard me say!

Think about it Martin, if i'm telling the truth, i have a story that is capable of rocking the whole world to its very foundations. For the moment, i have intentionally not given out any of the scientific proof's, not until i have compiled them properly. But when i have this properly compiled, the whole world will weep.

John.
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Message 1294808 - Posted: 13 Oct 2012, 15:17:24 UTC - in response to Message 1294670.  

Ozzfan,
Just for starters, we are BOTH preaching, your doing it too!! I preach based on the knowledge i have learned, and you do exactly the same thing. Your a preacher too! And its also based on what you "believe" to be correct. So don't think for one minute that your personal knowledge superseeds my personal knowledge. We BOTH study and have a good understanding of many DIFFERENT areas of science. So don't you dare stand on on some high horse and claim that your personal scientific view of the world is any better that someone elses scientific view of the world.


You have some serious issues if you think anyone that says anything different from you is somehow 'preaching' on a 'high horse'.

A cloned copy is not an exact duplicate

That's just plain wrong Ozzfan. A cloned copy of a living organism is a 100% perfect duplicate of the original in every possible way. This is the origin of the word clone. To clone something is to duplicate something. A clone is not a close copy, its a 100% perfect copy.


If it is missing the memories and experiences, it is not an exact duplicate.

so even through cloning, each life is a new one and therefore doesn't count as a continuation of the host's life.

This is also wrong, very wrong!


Why? Because you sez so? I see you doing a lot of this, telling everyone how very wrong they are, but you offer nothing substantial yourself.

You talk a lot of science, but the stuff you preach completely lacks any scientific credibility. It shows a real lack of even the most basic understanding of living cells.


Again, why? Because you sez so? Where's your evidence that I'm wrong?

The genes that get passed through from a parent cell to the daughter cell, or seed, are a continuation of the base set of chemical reactions we call life. In other words, the seed or child is a perfect unbroken chain of chemical reactions that has not stopped since the root of that species originally started.


I am not my father or mother. I have lived my own life with my own experiences. Though I may share some alleles with my parents and siblings, the unbroken chain is simply evolutionary.
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Message 1294819 - Posted: 13 Oct 2012, 15:57:09 UTC - in response to Message 1294670.  
Last modified: 13 Oct 2012, 15:57:43 UTC

That's just plain wrong Ozzfan. A cloned copy of a living organism is a 100% perfect duplicate of the original in every possible way. This is the origin of the word clone. To clone something is to duplicate something. A clone is not a close copy, its a 100% perfect copy.


That's simply wrong and you've already been shown it's wrong. Why do you continue to repeat things that are known falsehoods?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1294849 - Posted: 13 Oct 2012, 16:33:41 UTC
Last modified: 13 Oct 2012, 16:35:22 UTC

Ozzfan & Bobby,
Yea, yea, yea. Who are you trying to fool here?

Quote Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning

"Cloning in biology is the process of producing similar populations of genetically ->identical<- individuals that occurs in nature when organisms such as bacteria, insects or plants reproduce asexually.

Come off it guys!

John.
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Message 1294851 - Posted: 13 Oct 2012, 16:38:59 UTC - in response to Message 1294820.  

Its your choice people!

John, God's servant.


Well there you are folks, you heard it from the man himself. He is a bible thumping religious fanatic. I still think he's right about previous ET visitations, but as for the rest of it, he's blown it. He is not a lot different to those blokes who walk up and down the high Street with sandwich boards proclaiming the end of the world is nigh. He just does it on-line.

I'm sure he's a nice bloke and kind to animals etc, but I do fear for his mental wellbeing.

Chris,
I meant to ask you the other day. Where do i get those licence permits so i can stand on Hyde park corner in London?

I have the placard and paint, the good citizens of London town need to hear the word of God.

John :)
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Message 1294855 - Posted: 13 Oct 2012, 16:44:26 UTC - in response to Message 1294849.  

Ozzfan & Bobby,
Yea, yea, yea. Who are you trying to fool here?

Quote Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning

"Cloning in biology is the process of producing similar populations of genetically ->identical<- individuals that occurs in nature when organisms such as bacteria, insects or plants reproduce asexually.

Come off it guys!

John.


"Genetically identical" does not mean "a 100% perfect copy", note the wiki quote you used states "similar populations" ...
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1294873 - Posted: 13 Oct 2012, 17:25:38 UTC - in response to Message 1294868.  

Chris,
I meant to ask you the other day. Where do i get those licence permits so i can stand on Hyde park corner in London?

I have the placard and paint, the good citizens of London town need to hear the word of God.

John :)

I'll find out and get back to you.

....LOL....:)

John.
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Message 1294879 - Posted: 13 Oct 2012, 17:37:40 UTC - in response to Message 1294868.  

Chris,
I meant to ask you the other day. Where do i get those licence permits so i can stand on Hyde park corner in London?

I have the placard and paint, the good citizens of London town need to hear the word of God.

John :)

As far as I know you do not need a specific permit. If you are serious about coming over, let me know when and I'll buy you a beer afterwards.

Speakers Corner



for Gawd's sake, don't encourage him!
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Message 1294886 - Posted: 13 Oct 2012, 17:44:09 UTC - in response to Message 1294855.  

Ozzfan & Bobby,
Yea, yea, yea. Who are you trying to fool here?

Quote Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning

"Cloning in biology is the process of producing similar populations of genetically ->identical<- individuals that occurs in nature when organisms such as bacteria, insects or plants reproduce asexually.

Come off it guys!

John.


"Genetically identical" does not mean "a 100% perfect copy", note the wiki quote you used states "similar populations" ...


Please forgiveth Brother Johnney for he understands not what he readeths.
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Message 1294906 - Posted: 13 Oct 2012, 18:01:33 UTC

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Message 1295070 - Posted: 14 Oct 2012, 5:55:23 UTC

How the heck can a clone be identicel if it does not have your memories? Its just another body that looks like you. Untill the day that a mind can be uploaded to a clone its not the same.

And Id like to know how those people with more money than brains made out cloning a pet. My guess is yeah they looked the same but I bet they had a totaly different personality. ( Why Fluffy you never shredded the drapes before)

My take on a clone is they should have human rights, And to grow them just for you to take parts from or download your mind into is wrong.

Now cyborgs is a differnet story.
[/quote]

Old James
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Message 1295105 - Posted: 14 Oct 2012, 7:53:50 UTC - in response to Message 1295070.  
Last modified: 14 Oct 2012, 8:05:35 UTC

How the heck can a clone be identical if it does not have your memories? Its just another body that looks like you. Until the day that a mind can be uploaded to a clone its not the same.

And Id like to know how those people with more money than brains made out cloning a pet. My guess is yeah they looked the same but I bet they had a totally different personality. ( Why Fluffy you never shredded the drapes before)

My take on a clone is they should have human rights, And to grow them just for you to take parts from or download your mind into is wrong.

Now cyborgs is a different story.

James Sotherden,
Your clone will be like your identical twin. Through normal natural processes, occasionally women have identical twins, but it is very rare. Most twins are not identical.

But yes, your clone will indeed go through a completely different upbringing and will differ to the YOU that exists today. But your clone can "learn" about what the original YOU did during your life. Even though your clone will go through a different upbringing, your clone will bare all the personality traits that the original YOU has today. Everyone knows the old saying "Like father, like Son". Well YOU and your clone will have identical personality traits. But yes, different memories.

And yes, further down the road, a little further into the future, transferring "memories" into the brain of a brand new cloned YOU will be possible. This is how true immortality is achieved! In reality, because of general ware and tare on the human body, there is no point in using the same body for any more than about a thousand years, like the Biblical Adam (lived 960 years). So further down the line, when each person reaches about a thousand years old, you would just clone the new body and transfer the memories into the new body. And away you go, your good for another thousand years. You can keep repeating that process indefinitely, effectively making you immortal.

To quote the words of Jesus Christ;
" You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’" John 3:7

John.
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Message 1295112 - Posted: 14 Oct 2012, 8:06:28 UTC

By the reality of what the internet is, I shall live forever.

I die tomorrow, and my posts here shall survive for all eternity.
At least until that EMP thingy wipes it all out.
Coming soon to a nuclear timeframe near you.

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1295195 - Posted: 14 Oct 2012, 12:52:53 UTC - in response to Message 1295167.  
Last modified: 14 Oct 2012, 12:54:12 UTC

" You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’"


Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

Those words did not mean to be physically born again, or to be cloned from DNA. What they did mean in a metaphorical way, was that people needed to ditch their old ideas and customs and learn a new way of thinking and behaving. Then they will get the "message" and be effectively "born again" by living the rest of their lives in a different way.

There are many hundreds of similar passages in the Bible where statements are made in a metaphorical sense, that should not be taken literally. When Jesus or God are quoted they usually speak in this way, often citing parables to illustrate the point.

Conversely there are hundreds more where other people as observers speak of their experiences, that were written in the parlance of the time, where they can be taken more literally. The Bible is a hotch potch of old myths and legends, ancient Parish records, contemporary accounts, and peoples opinions, all jumbled up together. It was a clumsy attempt by the scribes of the day to write all their knowledge down before it got lost or even further amended or diluted.

The truth is that if you took a Bible to a publisher that had never seen it before they wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. And yet it's revered by millions of people throughout the world as the most important book ever written. If I live forever I will still never understand that.

You sure about all that Chris?

Are you sure that there are no literal statements in the Bible? Exactly how sure are you that Jesus wasn't slipping in a literal statement about cloning that would would only be understood by the final and last generation of Human Beings on Earth just before he returns.

Yea Chris, it was probably a lucky guess by Jesus that someone could be brought back from the dead by cloning. After all, that Jesus guy was very primitive, they has no TV's or mobile phones, or Discovery channel or the internet, so they couldn't have known about cloning. As for that God fellow - that was definitely a lucky guess that he started the whole bible by "guessing" that you could "create" plants and animals. Yes, these were just lucky guesses!! Us human beings are the most intelligent creatures in the whole universe. It would be impossible for someone else to know more that we do...right?

John.
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Message 1295235 - Posted: 14 Oct 2012, 15:15:18 UTC - in response to Message 1295234.  

Think he's been mixing up the bible with what Jehovah Witness's have been preaching about the Book of Revelations.

If they're to be believed, the second coming is expected before the end of 2014 as they see it prophesied 100 years after the start of WW1.

So, if the Mayans are right, we won't have to worry about that then, but if they're wrong, what makes 2014 correct?

As far as I'm concerned, they're all just interpretations of individuals, with some attaining positions of authority & attempting to influence the rest of us.
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Message 1295238 - Posted: 14 Oct 2012, 15:29:33 UTC - in response to Message 1295105.  
Last modified: 14 Oct 2012, 15:32:32 UTC

But yes, your clone will indeed go through a completely different upbringing and will differ to the YOU that exists today. But your clone can "learn" about what the original YOU did during your life. Even though your clone will go through a different upbringing, your clone will bare all the personality traits that the original YOU has today. Everyone knows the old saying "Like father, like Son". Well YOU and your clone will have identical personality traits. But yes, different memories.


There's a lot more to "becoming" an individual than simply learning who they were. We are all taught about people in history, but that doesn't make us them. The only way to have the same personality traits is to live all of the life experiences the original has. Since the only universal constant is change, there's absolutely no way that a clone can obtain the exact personality as the original simply by "learning" it while having it's own experiences. The best that it can hope for is to pretend or "act" (as in the way actors portray characters on TV) like the original.
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Message 1295301 - Posted: 14 Oct 2012, 18:37:25 UTC
Last modified: 14 Oct 2012, 18:40:04 UTC

He forgets why we are programmed for a given span on this world, and, for him, by the God that the bible says created us.

If too many in power were able to extend life ad nauseum, while in power, the effects would be no progress or questioning in society, likely little scientific progress and certainly no learning the lessons of history.

Why, therefore, do you want to extend human life span?

Is your contribution to society so valuable that society cannot afford to loose you?

What is the benefit to the common good of the extension of human life, when old age (extended) makes you a long term burden on the community that we all collectively have to pay for?
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



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Message 1295312 - Posted: 14 Oct 2012, 18:51:33 UTC - in response to Message 1295234.  

Exactly how sure are you that Jesus wasn't slipping in a literal statement about cloning

Just how sure are you that he was? Any evidence?

Yes, i do have evidence Chris, you know i do. And i have told you numerous times, i'm decoding and translating the information. As i said, this takes time.

that would would only be understood by the final and last generation of Human Beings on Earth

Oh, so we are all going to be wiped from history are we? When is this going to be? Where do you get that interpretation from? I thought we were going to be promised eternal life. That's bit of a bummer.

Lets be clear here Chris,
NOBODY promised you eternal life!!
The Bible is very clear. People who follow God's commandments will have their chromosomes modified so that their lifespan is massively increased, in effect, making them immortal.

You Chris, have personally slandered God and made a mockery of the word of God on these message boards. So Chris you will reap what you sow when you meet your maker. I won't be your judge, it will be other people who you already know.

just before he returns.

Got any timescales? "It will happen very soon" is not going to cut it around here any more. If I say I'll see you soon to a friend, that would probably mean in a few days. If I say to a colleague we must meet for lunch soon, that could mean a few weeks. The Bible reckons the earth and humans has been around for 5000 years, so soon in that context could be a few hundred years away. Convenient get out.

There used to be a famous chap in the 1980's that walked up and down Oxford Street in London wearing sandwich boards that proclaimed "the end of the world is nigh, repent all ye sinners". Come rain or shine he was there. A local eccentric totally off his trolley, but was amusing for the tourists. If you genuinely believe all that you are saying, then why are you wasting your time on these boards? Wouldn't you be better off being a lay preacher somewhere?

Chris,
I have already answered this question for you many times. NOBODY has a timescale, no more than anyone can give YOU a time and date for when you are going to die. The Bible specifically says "No man will know the time".

John.
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Message 1295318 - Posted: 14 Oct 2012, 19:06:54 UTC - in response to Message 1295312.  

God himself (if one believes in him that is), said he does not want his children to believe in blind faith but to search out the truth.

How that is achieved is down to the individual, not some muppet in robes where one has to kneel & kiss his ring!
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