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msattler
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Message 1287224 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 21:18:34 UTC
Last modified: 23 Sep 2012, 21:20:53 UTC

Houston Police shoot a wheelchair bound man with one arm in the head because they felt 'threatened'?
OK, he did try to stab the officer with a pen.
I can see justifying lethal force now.

Oh, the officer was trapped.........
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Message 1287284 - Posted: 24 Sep 2012, 2:12:21 UTC - in response to Message 1287224.
Last modified: 24 Sep 2012, 2:14:25 UTC

Houston Police shoot a wheelchair bound man with one arm in the head because they felt 'threatened'?
OK, he did try to stab the officer with a pen.
I can see justifying lethal force now.

Oh, the officer was trapped.........

Wish that article had a picture of the guy in his wheelchair. Was it a free-rolling or a power chair?

The stupid cop couldn't just tip the chair over, immobilize the guy, and free his partner? Or come up from behind and grab the guy's arm, or maybe whack him with his baton/nightstick? He had to shoot him?

Sorry, wrong answer. And yes, I have been there and done that.
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Message 1287285 - Posted: 24 Sep 2012, 2:17:38 UTC

Did I read this right the weapon was a pen?
Moving this to reasons known.
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Message 1287307 - Posted: 24 Sep 2012, 3:20:54 UTC - in response to Message 1287285.

Did I read this right the weapon was a pen?
Moving this to reasons known.

Well, the pen is mightier than the sword.....

Wonder what all the "old style" coppers think of the trigger happiness of the current generation of law enforcement officers ? It's happening in Australia too, particularly in the state of Victoria. The police there are developing a real reputation for trigger happiness.

T.A.

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Message 1287404 - Posted: 24 Sep 2012, 15:07:26 UTC - in response to Message 1287307.

Did I read this right the weapon was a pen?
Moving this to reasons known.

Well, the pen is mightier than the sword.....

Wonder what all the "old style" coppers think of the trigger happiness of the current generation of law enforcement officers ? It's happening in Australia too, particularly in the state of Victoria. The police there are developing a real reputation for trigger happiness.

T.A.

I dont know about down under, But here in the states we have a lot of former military joining the police forces. Take a combat vet who lives by split seconds decisions, He sees a threat he kills it. His buddys in danger he kills the threat post haste.

Also the fact that in the states some police departments think they are the military. The dress the same and carry the same weapon. And I do think some are wannabes.

Thats just my observation, I could be way wrong.
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Message 1287750 - Posted: 25 Sep 2012, 15:18:35 UTC - in response to Message 1287404.

Did I read this right the weapon was a pen?
Moving this to reasons known.

Well, the pen is mightier than the sword.....

Wonder what all the "old style" coppers think of the trigger happiness of the current generation of law enforcement officers ? It's happening in Australia too, particularly in the state of Victoria. The police there are developing a real reputation for trigger happiness.

T.A.

I dont know about down under, But here in the states we have a lot of former military joining the police forces. Take a combat vet who lives by split seconds decisions, He sees a threat he kills it. His buddys in danger he kills the threat post haste.

Also the fact that in the states some police departments think they are the military. The dress the same and carry the same weapon. And I do think some are wannabes.

Thats just my observation, I could be way wrong.

I think that is part of it. So many Police Academies train to react to a threat, not assess the treat and respond accordingly. I see too many news reports where someone with a knife is shot dead rather than even attempt to disarm or subdue with a baton or tazer.

And why so often when there are several officers present, do they ALL empty their weapons into the suspect? How about a designated shooter? Saves ammo, and minimizes the threat of collateral damage and civilian injury.
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Message 1287752 - Posted: 25 Sep 2012, 15:24:09 UTC - in response to Message 1287750.

Did I read this right the weapon was a pen?
Moving this to reasons known.

Well, the pen is mightier than the sword.....

Wonder what all the "old style" coppers think of the trigger happiness of the current generation of law enforcement officers ? It's happening in Australia too, particularly in the state of Victoria. The police there are developing a real reputation for trigger happiness.

T.A.

I dont know about down under, But here in the states we have a lot of former military joining the police forces. Take a combat vet who lives by split seconds decisions, He sees a threat he kills it. His buddys in danger he kills the threat post haste.

Also the fact that in the states some police departments think they are the military. The dress the same and carry the same weapon. And I do think some are wannabes.

Thats just my observation, I could be way wrong.

I think that is part of it. So many Police Academies train to react to a threat, not assess the treat and respond accordingly. I see too many news reports where someone with a knife is shot dead rather than even attempt to disarm or subdue with a baton or tazer.

And why so often when there are several officers present, do they ALL empty their weapons into the suspect? How about a designated shooter? Saves ammo, and minimizes the threat of collateral damage and civilian injury.

Such tactics as you suggest require brain power; something trained out of military forces.

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Message 1287753 - Posted: 25 Sep 2012, 15:39:47 UTC
Last modified: 25 Sep 2012, 15:40:11 UTC

Such tactics as you suggest require brain power; something trained out of military forces.

I find that really offensive. Our sevice men and woman are not brainless robots.

One of the hallmarks of the US armed services has been individual initiative.
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Message 1287808 - Posted: 25 Sep 2012, 23:03:26 UTC - in response to Message 1287753.

Such tactics as you suggest require brain power; something trained out of military forces.

I find that really offensive. Our sevice men and woman are not brainless robots.

One of the hallmarks of the US armed services has been individual initiative.

I don't believe I singled out the US armed services.

The entire purpose of basic training is to get the recruit to obey orders, even self destructive stupid ones, to break the recruit so they don't think, they just do. As you know there are only three answers; Yes Sir, No Sir, and No excuse Sir. That is not thinking. Blind obedience prevents thinking. This does not speak to the individual, just the institution.

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Message 1288091 - Posted: 26 Sep 2012, 15:52:13 UTC - in response to Message 1287808.

Sorry, you're in the wrong here. Basic training is to mould the individual into becoming part of a cohesive team. Once that's done, advanced training is commenced to provide the various trades required for each unit for which thinking is required.

At this stage, should one be found to be one or more cans short of a sixpack, either further training is provided or it's bye bye time, you're not wanted!
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Message 1288103 - Posted: 26 Sep 2012, 16:17:54 UTC

The entire purpose of basic training is to get the recruit to obey orders, even self destructive stupid ones, to break the recruit so they don't think, they just do. As you know there are only three answers; Yes Sir, No Sir, and No excuse Sir. That is not thinking. Blind obedience prevents thinking. This does not speak to the individual, just the institution.


I think that is a rather old fashioned way of thinking. It might have been true in the past not now.

We had troops used as cannon fodder in WW1, and millions of soldiers died for no good reason. There was an era of blind obedience but not anymore. Basic training gets you physically fit, and in a mindset to play a meaningful part in a trained group of people with a common aim. Of course you need people to obey orders, discipline simply breaks down if they don't.

But what you don't want in a war is for an officer to issue an order to his men to take that hill, only for them to say, actually Sir, me and the lads have had a little chat, and we think it's best to take that position over there. Total mayhem. On the other hand you don't want either an Officer to lose it on the battlefield and order his men to jump off a cliff.

Todays modern trained solder has cost an enormous amount of money in training to get him to the battlefront, you don't want to waste that by having him follow blind orders to certain death. A dead soldier is no use to anyone. What you do need are fully trained officers that can make strategic decisions under fire, and men that will respect that decision.

But it has been known for Officers to break down in the heat of battle, and you need someone with the ability to judge that and relieve them of their command and take over. Thankfully it very rarely happens. Todays soldier has to be a self reliant thinking individual.

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Message 1288113 - Posted: 26 Sep 2012, 16:36:18 UTC

Sirus and Chris S , You said it better than I did. Also if an illegal order is given It is the duty of the soldier to disobey. IE such as I want you to kill all those women because they are hiding the rebels.

The Nurenburg trials took away that, I was only doing what I was orderd to do bullcrap. Ask Lt. Calley if it worked for him.
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Message 1288119 - Posted: 26 Sep 2012, 16:49:24 UTC

Chris, you talk about officers. What is the rank you have at the completion of basic training?

As to losing it on the battlefield, the US has some experience in that, Lt. William Calley comes to mind as does Abu Ghraib.

Sirius, that advance training is how to operate a complex weapon; it isn't officer candidate school.

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Message 1288141 - Posted: 26 Sep 2012, 17:25:34 UTC - in response to Message 1288119.

Chris, you talk about officers. What is the rank you have at the completion of basic training?

As to losing it on the battlefield, the US has some experience in that, Lt. William Calley comes to mind as does Abu Ghraib.

Sirius, that advance training is how to operate a complex weapon; it isn't officer candidate school.


Rank at the end of basic training (at least here in the UK) is Private.

Advanced training is learning to use a complex weapon? Really? So a radio is a complex weapon? Oh my! An artillery piece is a complex weapon? Really? So a degree is needed to fire one? Need to qualify as an officer to use one?

Didn't realise that the US Army is in such disarray that officers are needed to use common equipment!
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Message 1288248 - Posted: 26 Sep 2012, 23:59:52 UTC
Last modified: 21 Mar 2014, 16:04:02 UTC

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Message 1288261 - Posted: 27 Sep 2012, 1:02:57 UTC - in response to Message 1288248.

Guy, you are correct the police vs civilian issue is a symptom of a bigger problem. It extends to the top, the us vs them. The current climate is more polarizing than any thing I've seen.
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Message 1288571 - Posted: 27 Sep 2012, 21:37:25 UTC

The issue is the "military style"[1] training of police officers. That they are trained to take any unknown as a threat and immediately kill the threat. Perhaps fine in war, but policing is not war.

War on Drugs has given carte blanche for this thinking and need to be terminated as does the thinking.



[1]Style as it may not be in current fashion with all military forces worldwide.

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Message 1288574 - Posted: 27 Sep 2012, 21:44:19 UTC

I think that police training reflects the type of society that the police have to operate in. If they work in a free for all environment with no gun laws, then they don't have much choice but to shoot first and ask questions afterwards. The American police seem to me to be a para-military force anyway, simply because they have to be. There isn't that need in the UK.

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Message 1288608 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 0:13:55 UTC - in response to Message 1288571.

The issue is the "military style"[1] training of police officers. That they are trained to take any unknown as a threat and immediately kill the threat. Perhaps fine in war, but policing is not war.

War on Drugs has given carte blanche for this thinking and need to be terminated as does the thinking.

[1]Style as it may not be in current fashion with all military forces worldwide.

On that I can wholeheartedly agree with you.
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Message 1288659 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 3:26:55 UTC - in response to Message 1288574.

I think that police training reflects the type of society that the police have to operate in. If they work in a free for all environment with no gun laws, then they don't have much choice but to shoot first and ask questions afterwards. The American police seem to me to be a para-military force anyway, simply because they have to be. There isn't that need in the UK.


Right, unarmed civilians are routinely shot to death on the NYC subway. Such a thing would never happen on the Tube. It's all down to the training and the free for all environment.
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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