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Profile Es99
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Message 1286867 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 0:13:18 UTC

Gender Bias when Hiring Scientists

So I guess that in the current climate if you are an unemployed woman you are going to have a harder time getting a job than an unemployed male.

It's not an even playing field out there. Your class, gender, parents, genes all effect the opportunities in life.

Personally I don't think people should be discriminated against because of their gender and quite honestly I think it shows what rubbish all the self congratulatory back patting of the super wealthy is.
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Message 1286883 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 1:41:39 UTC - in response to Message 1286867.

Gender Bias when Hiring Scientists

So I guess that in the current climate if you are an unemployed woman you are going to have a harder time getting a job than an unemployed male.

It's not an even playing field out there. Your class, gender, parents, genes all effect the opportunities in life.

Personally I don't think people should be discriminated against because of their gender and quite honestly I think it shows what rubbish all the self congratulatory back patting of the super wealthy is.

Why do you assume that an unemployed woman is going to have a harder time than an unemployed man?

If a male were to apply for a job traditionally seen as a females job, wouldn't he be saying the same thing.

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Message 1286905 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 2:53:07 UTC - in response to Message 1286867.

Did you read the comment on this item by "AncientThoughtStreams" ?

I found the title of this article to be misleading, as it seemed to indicate that there was a gender bias in the hiring of faculty, not lab managers. That said, it did get me to read the paper and I was somewhat dismayed to read that the "scientists" conducted their study with a pre-existing bias. They state this quite clearly in their methods section "we investigated whether a faculty members perceptions of student competence would help to explain why they would be less likely to hire a female (relative to an identical male). I can't say I came away totally convinced by their arguments, but likely I am biased in my view because I work in an institution that only employs one male lab manager in all of the labs in Biology, Biochemistry and Medicine despite having a 50% Male to Female Faculty ratio in some departments.

To be fair, they should have had a "blind" test, where the applications were presented with no names and compared the relative assessments with those given when gender was known.

T.A.

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Message 1286946 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 5:11:46 UTC - in response to Message 1286883.

Gender Bias when Hiring Scientists

So I guess that in the current climate if you are an unemployed woman you are going to have a harder time getting a job than an unemployed male.

It's not an even playing field out there. Your class, gender, parents, genes all effect the opportunities in life.

Personally I don't think people should be discriminated against because of their gender and quite honestly I think it shows what rubbish all the self congratulatory back patting of the super wealthy is.

Why do you assume that an unemployed woman is going to have a harder time than an unemployed man?

If a male were to apply for a job traditionally seen as a females job, wouldn't he be saying the same thing.

There are very few jobs where I can actually see that happening. Mainly childcare perhaps because of the fear of paedophiles? Perhaps you can give some examples? In general would not apply for jobs they consider emasculating and in my experience people are usually quite pleased when they do apply.

Of course these jobs considered to be women's work are usually pretty poorly paid, which is another reason men tend to avoid them. They aren't kept out because of hiring practices.
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Message 1286947 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 5:13:41 UTC - in response to Message 1286905.

Did you read the comment on this item by "AncientThoughtStreams" ?
I found the title of this article to be misleading, as it seemed to indicate that there was a gender bias in the hiring of faculty, not lab managers. That said, it did get me to read the paper and I was somewhat dismayed to read that the "scientists" conducted their study with a pre-existing bias. They state this quite clearly in their methods section "we investigated whether a faculty members perceptions of student competence would help to explain why they would be less likely to hire a female (relative to an identical male). I can't say I came away totally convinced by their arguments, but likely I am biased in my view because I work in an institution that only employs one male lab manager in all of the labs in Biology, Biochemistry and Medicine despite having a 50% Male to Female Faculty ratio in some departments.

To be fair, they should have had a "blind" test, where the applications were presented with no names and compared the relative assessments with those given when gender was known.

T.A.

There is some variety between the sciences. There are some sciences that are considered women's science more than others. You tend to find more women in biology than the "harder" sciences, but this is changing.
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Message 1286950 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 5:44:07 UTC
Last modified: 23 Sep 2012, 5:44:23 UTC

Look what "equal opportunity" did to Nursing.

This was once regarded as a "Women's" occupation and the Matron ruled the hospital as a dictator. Even the doctors deferred to her.

Since those days a lot of nurses are now men and the "Nursing Manager" is usually a male.

T.A.

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Message 1286952 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 5:48:40 UTC - in response to Message 1286950.

Look what "equal opportunity" did to Nursing.

This was once regarded as a "Women's" occupation and the Matron ruled the hospital as a dictator. Even the doctors deferred to her.

Since those days a lot of nurses are now men and the "Nursing Manager" is usually a male.

T.A.

It's not a bad thing that there are more male nurses at all. However, selection of the manager should depend on ability, not gender.
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Message 1286998 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 9:02:40 UTC - in response to Message 1286946.
Last modified: 23 Sep 2012, 9:05:51 UTC

Gender Bias when Hiring Scientists

So I guess that in the current climate if you are an unemployed woman you are going to have a harder time getting a job than an unemployed male.

It's not an even playing field out there. Your class, gender, parents, genes all effect the opportunities in life.

Personally I don't think people should be discriminated against because of their gender and quite honestly I think it shows what rubbish all the self congratulatory back patting of the super wealthy is.

Why do you assume that an unemployed woman is going to have a harder time than an unemployed man?

If a male were to apply for a job traditionally seen as a females job, wouldn't he be saying the same thing.

There are very few jobs where I can actually see that happening. Mainly childcare perhaps because of the fear of paedophiles? Perhaps you can give some examples? In general would not apply for jobs they consider emasculating and in my experience people are usually quite pleased when they do apply.

Of course these jobs considered to be women's work are usually pretty poorly paid, which is another reason men tend to avoid them. They aren't kept out because of hiring practices.

It might surprise you but there are some young people I know regard teaching as women's work, because thats how it was through most of their school life. With the ratio being 7:1 in primary school and for the lucky ones it might get to 3:2 in secondary schooling.

@T.A. Are you calling my Aunt, a small kind lady, a Dictator.

Don't go to Toronto she might he might have your guts for garters.

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Message 1287015 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 11:20:41 UTC - in response to Message 1286998.

...@T.A. Are you calling my Aunt, a small kind lady, a Dictator.

Don't go to Toronto she might he might have your guts for garters.

As a patient I'd probably be OK. However, if she's an "old style" Matron I bet the whisper down the corridors that "Matron's coming" makes the staff quake in their nursing shoes. :-)

T.A.

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Message 1287017 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 11:31:50 UTC - in response to Message 1286998.

It might surprise you but there are some young people I know regard teaching as women's work, because thats how it was through most of their school life. With the ratio being 7:1 in primary school and for the lucky ones it might get to 3:2 in secondary schooling.

When I was in primary school, the ratio was 50/50. When I was in high school the ratio was 80% male to 20% female.

Men have largely been driven out of teaching due to the fear of being falsely accused of sexual assault by a vindictive female brat he has had to discipline. This has happened to two male teacher acquaintances of mine. Both were eventually cleared but they were suspended for months while the investigation took place and their reputations were damaged.

T.A.

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Message 1287101 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 16:51:20 UTC - in response to Message 1287017.

When I was in primary school, the ratio was 50/50. When I was in high school the ratio was 80% male to 20% female.


There were at best 2 or 3 male teachers in my decent size elementary school. This was the mid-to-late 70s. I do not think your reason applies.

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Message 1287156 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 17:55:17 UTC - in response to Message 1286998.

Gender Bias when Hiring Scientists

So I guess that in the current climate if you are an unemployed woman you are going to have a harder time getting a job than an unemployed male.

It's not an even playing field out there. Your class, gender, parents, genes all effect the opportunities in life.

Personally I don't think people should be discriminated against because of their gender and quite honestly I think it shows what rubbish all the self congratulatory back patting of the super wealthy is.

Why do you assume that an unemployed woman is going to have a harder time than an unemployed man?

If a male were to apply for a job traditionally seen as a females job, wouldn't he be saying the same thing.

There are very few jobs where I can actually see that happening. Mainly childcare perhaps because of the fear of paedophiles? Perhaps you can give some examples? In general would not apply for jobs they consider emasculating and in my experience people are usually quite pleased when they do apply.

Of course these jobs considered to be women's work are usually pretty poorly paid, which is another reason men tend to avoid them. They aren't kept out because of hiring practices.

It might surprise you but there are some young people I know regard teaching as women's work, because thats how it was through most of their school life. With the ratio being 7:1 in primary school and for the lucky ones it might get to 3:2 in secondary schooling.

@T.A. Are you calling my Aunt, a small kind lady, a Dictator.

Don't go to Toronto she might he might have your guts for garters.

Doesn't surprise me at all. There aren't enough men becoming teachers.
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Message 1287160 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 17:58:38 UTC - in response to Message 1287017.

It might surprise you but there are some young people I know regard teaching as women's work, because thats how it was through most of their school life. With the ratio being 7:1 in primary school and for the lucky ones it might get to 3:2 in secondary schooling.

When I was in primary school, the ratio was 50/50. When I was in high school the ratio was 80% male to 20% female.

Men have largely been driven out of teaching due to the fear of being falsely accused of sexual assault by a vindictive female brat he has had to discipline. This has happened to two male teacher acquaintances of mine. Both were eventually cleared but they were suspended for months while the investigation took place and their reputations were damaged.

T.A.

Teenagers are evil.

I've had pupils threaten to make false allegations against me that I hit them or something. I always said "go ahead, then I won't have to teach you horrible kids any more."

I teach in adult ed now, and life is much better although the pay is worse. :)
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Message 1287162 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 18:02:45 UTC - in response to Message 1287101.

There were at best 2 or 3 male teachers in my decent size elementary school. This was the mid-to-late 70s. I do not think your reason applies.

Oh yes it does. There were several boys in my daughter's high school class who were considering becoming teachers. They changed their minds when one of the incidents mentioned above happened.

T.A.

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Message 1287233 - Posted: 23 Sep 2012, 21:48:14 UTC

Teenagers are evil.

Agreed. I once taught fot a term a class of year 11 girls as an experiment between a local school and the College to give them IT in their final year. One girl sat there all lesson chewing gum and listening to her headset. I said, look, you're wasting your time and wasting my time, just go back and ask to be taken of this course. Oh do behave she said, I'm only here to get out of French ....

I've had pupils threaten to make false allegations against me that I hit them or something. I always said "go ahead, then I won't have to teach you horrible kids any more."

I teach in adult ed now, and life is much better although the pay is worse. :)

I advised you that 3 years ago Es, glad you finally saw the light :-)

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Message 1287301 - Posted: 24 Sep 2012, 2:45:51 UTC - in response to Message 1287162.

There were at best 2 or 3 male teachers in my decent size elementary school. This was the mid-to-late 70s. I do not think your reason applies.

Oh yes it does. There were several boys in my daughter's high school class who were considering becoming teachers. They changed their minds when one of the incidents mentioned above happened.

T.A.


Though we are all (those of us posting in here) in countries in the UK or fomerly part of it, we do share some common culture.
However, you perhaps are forgetting that in the US (my country), throughout the 1800s, we were spreading from one coast to the other, and you can bet that the simple version of women were left to teach while men did other things is still fairly accurate.

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Message 1287304 - Posted: 24 Sep 2012, 3:03:44 UTC - in response to Message 1287301.
Last modified: 24 Sep 2012, 3:05:00 UTC

There were at best 2 or 3 male teachers in my decent size elementary school. This was the mid-to-late 70s. I do not think your reason applies.

Oh yes it does. There were several boys in my daughter's high school class who were considering becoming teachers. They changed their minds when one of the incidents mentioned above happened.

T.A.


Though we are all (those of us posting in here) in countries in the UK or fomerly part of it, we do share some common culture.
However, you perhaps are forgetting that in the US (my country), throughout the 1800s, we were spreading from one coast to the other, and you can bet that the simple version of women were left to teach while men did other things is still fairly accurate.

Check Australian history, The timelines are very similar.

Maybe here in Oz, more returning WW2 servicemen chose to become teachers than in the US. Most of my male teachers were about the right vintage for that. I can only quote from my experience.

Over the years the situation has changed and now most teachers here are female, and one of the reasons is that men are not going into teaching because of the fear of harassment charges.

T.A.

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Message 1287315 - Posted: 24 Sep 2012, 4:37:14 UTC - in response to Message 1287304.

There were at best 2 or 3 male teachers in my decent size elementary school. This was the mid-to-late 70s. I do not think your reason applies.

Oh yes it does. There were several boys in my daughter's high school class who were considering becoming teachers. They changed their minds when one of the incidents mentioned above happened.

T.A.


Though we are all (those of us posting in here) in countries in the UK or fomerly part of it, we do share some common culture.
However, you perhaps are forgetting that in the US (my country), throughout the 1800s, we were spreading from one coast to the other, and you can bet that the simple version of women were left to teach while men did other things is still fairly accurate.

Check Australian history, The timelines are very similar.

Maybe here in Oz, more returning WW2 servicemen chose to become teachers than in the US. Most of my male teachers were about the right vintage for that. I can only quote from my experience.

Over the years the situation has changed and now most teachers here are female, and one of the reasons is that men are not going into teaching because of the fear of harassment charges.

T.A.

Your experience matches mine. Here in the UK, and in Africa where I spent most of my school life in an international school. In secondary education in the late 50s early 60s the ratio was about 66% male, 33% female.

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Message 1287320 - Posted: 24 Sep 2012, 5:23:19 UTC - in response to Message 1287301.

There were at best 2 or 3 male teachers in my decent size elementary school. This was the mid-to-late 70s. I do not think your reason applies.

Oh yes it does. There were several boys in my daughter's high school class who were considering becoming teachers. They changed their minds when one of the incidents mentioned above happened.

T.A.


Though we are all (those of us posting in here) in countries in the UK or fomerly part of it, we do share some common culture.
However, you perhaps are forgetting that in the US (my country), throughout the 1800s, we were spreading from one coast to the other, and you can bet that the simple version of women were left to teach while men did other things is still fairly accurate.

The women pioneers were amazing. They did everything and in very harsh conditions and were tough as nails. They often worked alongside the men, they made all the household supplies from scratch, worked on the farm, could hunt and shoot when necessary. The idea that women were "left" to teach while the men did "other things" is a complete misunderstanding of how the first pioneer families survived.

You also might want to remember that back then women could not hold paid employment once they were married. If a woman married that was the end of her teaching career.

You'd be a fool indeed to underestimate their contribution.
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Message 1287322 - Posted: 24 Sep 2012, 5:26:05 UTC - in response to Message 1287304.

There were at best 2 or 3 male teachers in my decent size elementary school. This was the mid-to-late 70s. I do not think your reason applies.

Oh yes it does. There were several boys in my daughter's high school class who were considering becoming teachers. They changed their minds when one of the incidents mentioned above happened.

T.A.


Though we are all (those of us posting in here) in countries in the UK or fomerly part of it, we do share some common culture.
However, you perhaps are forgetting that in the US (my country), throughout the 1800s, we were spreading from one coast to the other, and you can bet that the simple version of women were left to teach while men did other things is still fairly accurate.

Check Australian history, The timelines are very similar.

Maybe here in Oz, more returning WW2 servicemen chose to become teachers than in the US. Most of my male teachers were about the right vintage for that. I can only quote from my experience.

Over the years the situation has changed and now most teachers here are female, and one of the reasons is that men are not going into teaching because of the fear of harassment charges.

T.A.


Well, considering that I originally trained to teach at the secondary level (12-18 year olds), I never heard of men returning from WWII to become teachers in large numbers here.

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