What would convert you to God?


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Profile Johnney Guinness
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Message 1285102 - Posted: 18 Sep 2012, 10:08:31 UTC
Last modified: 18 Sep 2012, 10:13:16 UTC

What would convert you to God?

This question is mainly aimed at atheists, agnostics and skeptics of God and religion.

What would it take to convert you to believing in God?

Try take the question seriously, don't be too sarcastic. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I just want to know what would have to happen before you would start believing in God?

Here's some idea's;

If Extraterrestrials landed and said they were God maybe?
Some miracles maybe?
Raising the dead?
Seeing one of your dead relatives alive in front of you again? Maybe your dead father, mother, grand father, great grand father, etc, etc?
Booming voices from the sky maybe?
Massive alien mother-ship in Earth orbit maybe?
Barack Obama announcing an asteroid is about to destroy humanity maybe?

What would have to happen that would make you believe in God?

John.
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Message 1285110 - Posted: 18 Sep 2012, 10:47:09 UTC

The appearance of someone/thing who/that knows all the laws of science, maths, logic etc. in fact everything.

But where would that help us, it is much better to figure them out for ourselves.

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Message 1285125 - Posted: 18 Sep 2012, 12:11:55 UTC

If any of the occurrences that Johnney has listed actually happened, it could be down to physics and science that we don't yet know about. It doesn't have to be caused by some divine intervention. If someone lands in a spaceship and declares himself to be god, then fine. Hope he can spare 5 minutes to answer some questions.

To put it simply, I don't need to believe in a religion or a god to be happy and live my life in peace. Of course there are some questions that I don't know the answer to and would like to, but I'll accept not knowing, it's no big deal. Of course I would marvel at some being that could carry out unimaginable powerful tasks, hey nice one, how'd you do that, but I'm not about to lie prostrate at their feet because of it.

There are millions of people that simply cannot live a fulfilling life without having a personal faith and belief in a god of some sort, an ultimate being, that for them explains everything, they see, and gives them pleasure to worship in some way. Provided that their religious fervour doesn't lead to bloodshed and war, I am happy that they feel they have a reason for being, and I respect their beliefs.

I just find it very sad watching the JW's trudge the streets in the rain and cold, because they feel that they just have to convert other people to their own way of thinking to save their souls. Quite from what, no-one has yet figured out, but you have to admire and respect their sheer dedication to their cause. If whatever force that drives them could be packaged and marketed, someone could make a lot of money.

What I do find annoying is deeply religious people trying to convert others that don't believe. It's equivalent to canvassing at election time, vote for us and get salvation, our god is better than theirs. All mainstream religions have their churches, mosques, websites, literature etc. If people are interested enough they will get in touch themselves to find out more. It doesn't need to be marketed like doorstep salesmen flogging double glazing.

I am in no way denigrating religion or belief in gods, and I respect those that do have a faith. The concept doesn't work for me, and I don't need it to. In answer to the question, nothing would convert me to anything.





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Message 1285182 - Posted: 18 Sep 2012, 15:44:59 UTC - in response to Message 1285125.

If any of the occurrences that Johnney has listed actually happened, it could be down to physics and science that we don't yet know about. It doesn't have to be caused by some divine intervention. If someone lands in a spaceship and declares himself to be god, then fine. Hope he can spare 5 minutes to answer some questions.

To put it simply, I don't need to believe in a religion or a god to be happy and live my life in peace. Of course there are some questions that I don't know the answer to and would like to, but I'll accept not knowing, it's no big deal. Of course I would marvel at some being that could carry out unimaginable powerful tasks, hey nice one, how'd you do that, but I'm not about to lie prostrate at their feet because of it.

There are millions of people that simply cannot live a fulfilling life without having a personal faith and belief in a god of some sort, an ultimate being, that for them explains everything, they see, and gives them pleasure to worship in some way. Provided that their religious fervour doesn't lead to bloodshed and war, I am happy that they feel they have a reason for being, and I respect their beliefs.

I just find it very sad watching the JW's trudge the streets in the rain and cold, because they feel that they just have to convert other people to their own way of thinking to save their souls. Quite from what, no-one has yet figured out, but you have to admire and respect their sheer dedication to their cause. If whatever force that drives them could be packaged and marketed, someone could make a lot of money.

What I do find annoying is deeply religious people trying to convert others that don't believe. It's equivalent to canvassing at election time, vote for us and get salvation, our god is better than theirs. All mainstream religions have their churches, mosques, websites, literature etc. If people are interested enough they will get in touch themselves to find out more. It doesn't need to be marketed like doorstep salesmen flogging double glazing.

I am in no way denigrating religion or belief in gods, and I respect those that do have a faith. The concept doesn't work for me, and I don't need it to. In answer to the question, nothing would convert me to anything.






^ I second this.
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Message 1285193 - Posted: 18 Sep 2012, 16:12:57 UTC

To be quite honest, even though I was born in a predominately catholic country, baptised into the faith but not been a practising one since my schooldays, it would take: -

"A divine being floating in the sky for all to see, waving his/her hands & all selfishness, greed & hatred no longer in existence within any human being alive or to be born from that moment on".
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Message 1285228 - Posted: 18 Sep 2012, 21:31:13 UTC

God to have actually created the universe ...

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Message 1285229 - Posted: 18 Sep 2012, 21:32:02 UTC - in response to Message 1285125.
Last modified: 18 Sep 2012, 21:33:12 UTC

If any of the occurrences that Johnney has listed actually happened, it could be down to physics and science that we don't yet know about. It doesn't have to be caused by some divine intervention. If someone lands in a spaceship and declares himself to be god, then fine. Hope he can spare 5 minutes to answer some questions.

To put it simply, I don't need to believe in a religion or a god to be happy and live my life in peace. Of course there are some questions that I don't know the answer to and would like to, but I'll accept not knowing, it's no big deal. Of course I would marvel at some being that could carry out unimaginable powerful tasks, hey nice one, how'd you do that, but I'm not about to lie prostrate at their feet because of it.

There are millions of people that simply cannot live a fulfilling life without having a personal faith and belief in a god of some sort, an ultimate being, that for them explains everything, they see, and gives them pleasure to worship in some way. Provided that their religious fervour doesn't lead to bloodshed and war, I am happy that they feel they have a reason for being, and I respect their beliefs.

I just find it very sad watching the JW's trudge the streets in the rain and cold, because they feel that they just have to convert other people to their own way of thinking to save their souls. Quite from what, no-one has yet figured out, but you have to admire and respect their sheer dedication to their cause. If whatever force that drives them could be packaged and marketed, someone could make a lot of money.

What I do find annoying is deeply religious people trying to convert others that don't believe. It's equivalent to canvassing at election time, vote for us and get salvation, our god is better than theirs. All mainstream religions have their churches, mosques, websites, literature etc. If people are interested enough they will get in touch themselves to find out more. It doesn't need to be marketed like doorstep salesmen flogging double glazing.

I am in no way denigrating religion or belief in gods, and I respect those that do have a faith. The concept doesn't work for me, and I don't need it to. In answer to the question, nothing would convert me to anything.


+1 from me also, though in preference to "nothing would convert me to anything", I think I'd say "I can't think of anything that would convert me". I don't think I can rule out the possibility completely, though my imagination fails when trying to devise a test that I'd find satisfying. As Chris notes, many of the proposals in the OP are covered by the third of Arthur C. Clarke's Three Laws, namely "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.".
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1285269 - Posted: 18 Sep 2012, 22:50:11 UTC

I dont need to be converted, but I think that there are people who will never be "converted"... (Assuming that God is going to respect the free will, of course... :D)

I mean, if God appears in front of them and gives them whatever proove they need to accept him, then they wont believe in him, they will know him... and learning something new, doesnt imply a convertion...

But, even for a believer like me, its rather difficult to find something that will be a definately proove... I know Im a finite and limited beeing, any beeing slightly more advanced or slighly less limited will be able to do things that for me are impossible to even imagine or understand.
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Message 1285277 - Posted: 18 Sep 2012, 23:16:29 UTC - in response to Message 1285269.

I dont need to be converted, but I think that there are people who will never be "converted"... (Assuming that God is going to respect the free will, of course... :D)

I mean, if God appears in front of them and gives them whatever proove they need to accept him, then they wont believe in him, they will know him... and learning something new, doesnt imply a convertion...

But, even for a believer like me, its rather difficult to find something that will be a definately proove... I know Im a finite and limited beeing, any beeing slightly more advanced or slighly less limited will be able to do things that for me are impossible to even imagine or understand.


If you're referring to the free will of the conscious "I", it may be that neuroscientists and psychologists have less respect for it than you might like to believe, let alone attribute to some unknown being.
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1285295 - Posted: 19 Sep 2012, 0:52:31 UTC
Last modified: 19 Sep 2012, 0:57:11 UTC

To everyone,
Most of the people who have posted to this thread are aware of the research i have been carrying out down in the Middle East, and the "old book" i am decoding.

These are some of my current results;

Soon, in the next year, or next few years, you are going to hear scientific news on your television. All the news channels all over the world, in every country will carry the same news story. This scientific news story will be about a team of scientists and these scientists will have "cloned" an extinct creature that has been extinct for a long time!

Now while this scientific news story about cloning the extinct creature will be fascinating in itself, it will not be the true news story. The real news story will be peoples reaction and the public discussion that will follow this cloning event!

The public discussion that will follow the cloning of the extinct creature will be about human cloning. And the basis for the discussion will be simple;

"If we can clone an extinct creature that has been dead for many years, then we can clone human beings that have died".

The discussion will be very public and will be discussed on TV stations all over the world. The discussion will be about "raising the dead", or the "resurrection" that is described in the Bible. The discussion will continue for ......I think the Bible says 1355 days, or something close. About 3 and a half years.

Then it will happen, very quickly. The first person to be cloned will be announced on the TV. It will most likely be a child that died recently in some car accident, or something like that. But once its announced, there will be many more people who have recently lost their loved ones will want their relative cloned, and brought back to life.

Once it starts, it will be unstoppable. Once people realise just how easy it is to clone a dead person, there will be hoards of people going into church grave yards with excavators to dig up their deceased loved ones to get them cloned and returned to life.

This will be the first block of the "resurrected" as described in the Biblical Book of Revelation.

That will continue for many years, and as time goes on, the scientists will gain more experience and dare to clone older and older bodies that have been dug up. Within a few years, they will have perfected the cloning and will be resurrecting people who died thousands of years ago. The scientists will figure out that you don't actually need a perfectly preserved body to extract the DNA. You can literally clone anyone!

After many years, the scientists will announce that there is a "flaw" in what they were doing, a flaw in the cloning process. But at this stage, many tens of thousands of people, or even millions, will have been resurrected.

The flaw will be.......... I will discuss the "flaw" later. See how ye get on with that much first.

John.
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Message 1285315 - Posted: 19 Sep 2012, 2:52:39 UTC - in response to Message 1285295.

To everyone,
Most of the people who have posted to this thread are aware of the research i have been carrying out down in the Middle East, and the "old book" i am decoding.

These are some of my current results;

Soon, in the next year, or next few years, you are going to hear scientific news on your television. All the news channels all over the world, in every country will carry the same news story. This scientific news story will be about a team of scientists and these scientists will have "cloned" an extinct creature that has been extinct for a long time!

Now while this scientific news story about cloning the extinct creature will be fascinating in itself, it will not be the true news story. The real news story will be peoples reaction and the public discussion that will follow this cloning event!

The public discussion that will follow the cloning of the extinct creature will be about human cloning. And the basis for the discussion will be simple;

"If we can clone an extinct creature that has been dead for many years, then we can clone human beings that have died".

The discussion will be very public and will be discussed on TV stations all over the world. The discussion will be about "raising the dead", or the "resurrection" that is described in the Bible. The discussion will continue for ......I think the Bible says 1355 days, or something close. About 3 and a half years.

Then it will happen, very quickly. The first person to be cloned will be announced on the TV. It will most likely be a child that died recently in some car accident, or something like that. But once its announced, there will be many more people who have recently lost their loved ones will want their relative cloned, and brought back to life.

Once it starts, it will be unstoppable. Once people realise just how easy it is to clone a dead person, there will be hoards of people going into church grave yards with excavators to dig up their deceased loved ones to get them cloned and returned to life.

This will be the first block of the "resurrected" as described in the Biblical Book of Revelation.

That will continue for many years, and as time goes on, the scientists will gain more experience and dare to clone older and older bodies that have been dug up. Within a few years, they will have perfected the cloning and will be resurrecting people who died thousands of years ago. The scientists will figure out that you don't actually need a perfectly preserved body to extract the DNA. You can literally clone anyone!

After many years, the scientists will announce that there is a "flaw" in what they were doing, a flaw in the cloning process. But at this stage, many tens of thousands of people, or even millions, will have been resurrected.

The flaw will be.......... I will discuss the "flaw" later. See how ye get on with that much first.

John.


“If people believe they’ll go to heaven no matter what they’ll lose control over themselves.”
“Why would you say that?”
“Because nothing anyone does ... will matter to them. The real worlds would turn into a game ..., people would kill, rape, destroy, they’d be forgiven and blessed and go to heaven anyway.”

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Message 1285404 - Posted: 19 Sep 2012, 8:42:15 UTC

Ok, I'm pretty much sure that I understand what Johnney is saying. We know already that we can extract DNA from long dead mammoths and similar that have been preserved in ice. We also are almost at a stage where we could clone a copy. From there it is a small step to applying that technology to human DNA.

He goes on to talk about the biblical references to raising the dead and resurrection, and is saying that he believes that the bible is metaphorically referring to cloning. That is one interpretation, and there is a clue already in the arrival of Eve.

So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”

Sounds like an anaesthetic, an operation, and removal of a bone. DNA was then extracted from the marrow, and cloned to produce a female. She was called a womb-man as she was essentially a man with a womb. Over time we've lost the letter b.

But lets be clear about two points here
    1. Cloning is only possible if the dead body has not deteriorated too far to extract DNA. Recent deaths may be possible, but people buried for hundreds or thousands of years in ordinary graves, may present a problem. Johnney thinks not however.

    2. Any clone will be a copy, a physical approximation of the dead person. They will not have the same memories or experiences within them, nor will they have the same characters or traits.

We have a way to go though, because whilst it may be scientifically possible one day in a laboratory, mankind so far is very lukewarm to human cloning. But we are already seeing new viewpoints. There are people who spend vast sums of money on cryogenics preserving their body after death, in the hope they can be brought back to life one day, and cured of whatever killed them. This isn't quite cloning of course, and presupposes that the brain can be restarted so they are as they once were. But the seeds of change are there.



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Message 1285476 - Posted: 19 Sep 2012, 13:10:09 UTC - in response to Message 1285315.

“If people believe they’ll go to heaven no matter what they’ll lose control over themselves.”
“Why would you say that?”
“Because nothing anyone does ... will matter to them. The real worlds would turn into a game ..., people would kill, rape, destroy, they’d be forgiven and blessed and go to heaven anyway.”

Sarge,
I never said anything about heaven. If someone is cloned, they will not be in heaven. All the people who will be cloned in the first batch will ultimately die again. All these cloned people will still have a lifespan of about 80 or so years, just like their first life. And yes, the Bible describes this event as a very turbulent time. Yes, there will be widespread panic as the wealthy try to "buy" their way so they get cloned first. The rich and powerful people will "think" they are beating everyone too it by being the first ones. But they will be wrong! In the end, after the great tribulation, only the people that followed God's commandments will get the true prize. They will be the ones that will benefit from the tree of life. And nobody can buy their way to the tree of life. Only those that truly deserve it will get it.

John.
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Message 1285479 - Posted: 19 Sep 2012, 13:25:23 UTC - in response to Message 1285404.
Last modified: 19 Sep 2012, 13:27:37 UTC

Ok, I'm pretty much sure that I understand what Johnney is saying. We know already that we can extract DNA from long dead mammoths and similar that have been preserved in ice. We also are almost at a stage where we could clone a copy. From there it is a small step to applying that technology to human DNA.

He goes on to talk about the biblical references to raising the dead and resurrection, and is saying that he believes that the bible is metaphorically referring to cloning. That is one interpretation, and there is a clue already in the arrival of Eve.

So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”

Sounds like an anaesthetic, an operation, and removal of a bone. DNA was then extracted from the marrow, and cloned to produce a female. She was called a womb-man as she was essentially a man with a womb. Over time we've lost the letter b.

But lets be clear about two points here
    1. Cloning is only possible if the dead body has not deteriorated too far to extract DNA. Recent deaths may be possible, but people buried for hundreds or thousands of years in ordinary graves, may present a problem. Johnney thinks not however.

    2. Any clone will be a copy, a physical approximation of the dead person. They will not have the same memories or experiences within them, nor will they have the same characters or traits.

We have a way to go though, because whilst it may be scientifically possible one day in a laboratory, mankind so far is very lukewarm to human cloning. But we are already seeing new viewpoints. There are people who spend vast sums of money on cryogenics preserving their body after death, in the hope they can be brought back to life one day, and cured of whatever killed them. This isn't quite cloning of course, and presupposes that the brain can be restarted so they are as they once were. But the seeds of change are there.




Wrong Chris,
Some of the things you say are right, but some are wrong. Everybody can be cloned, everyone that has ever lived. But especially the people God wants to come back. God has saved a DNA copy of the people who will get eternal life.

Chris a cloned human being is NOT a physical approximation! Its a perfect copy in every possible way. It just won't have the "memory" of the previous life. The cloned person will be just like your twin. But not all twin babies are identical. But occasionally, you do get identical twins. Your clone will be your twin. So occasionally nature does this anyway! There are lots of identical twins today anyway.

And no Chris, we are NOT lukewarm with cloning. There are thousands of labs around the world doing it every day. Not just to genetically modified crops, they are doing it with living creatures. Its not isolated Chris, its widespread at this stage. Its easy chris, when you know how it works.

Anyone that tried to "buy" their way into heaven by freezing their body in a cryogenic freezer won't be cloned as the sub-zero freezing will have destroyed their genes.

John.
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Message 1285502 - Posted: 19 Sep 2012, 14:51:50 UTC

As cremation also destroys DNA.
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Message 1285512 - Posted: 19 Sep 2012, 15:18:27 UTC - in response to Message 1285502.
Last modified: 19 Sep 2012, 15:18:35 UTC

As cremation also destroys DNA.

Correct James!
Anyone that chooses cremation to dispose of their body after death won't be coming back. If these people had read the Bible they would have know that the Bible does not tell you to cremate your body after death. The Bible tells you to put your body under the ground for safe keeping.

But nobody can hide either if they did bad things during their life. God has a way of recording people's DNA code so that every single person can be brought back for the judgement. Everybody will be judged according to their actions and deeds. Its all recorded in books.

John.

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Message 1285516 - Posted: 19 Sep 2012, 15:32:56 UTC - in response to Message 1285479.

Ok, I'm pretty much sure that I understand what Johnney is saying. We know already that we can extract DNA from long dead mammoths and similar that have been preserved in ice. We also are almost at a stage where we could clone a copy. From there it is a small step to applying that technology to human DNA.

He goes on to talk about the biblical references to raising the dead and resurrection, and is saying that he believes that the bible is metaphorically referring to cloning. That is one interpretation, and there is a clue already in the arrival of Eve.

So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”

Sounds like an anaesthetic, an operation, and removal of a bone. DNA was then extracted from the marrow, and cloned to produce a female. She was called a womb-man as she was essentially a man with a womb. Over time we've lost the letter b.

But lets be clear about two points here
    1. Cloning is only possible if the dead body has not deteriorated too far to extract DNA. Recent deaths may be possible, but people buried for hundreds or thousands of years in ordinary graves, may present a problem. Johnney thinks not however.

    2. Any clone will be a copy, a physical approximation of the dead person. They will not have the same memories or experiences within them, nor will they have the same characters or traits.

We have a way to go though, because whilst it may be scientifically possible one day in a laboratory, mankind so far is very lukewarm to human cloning. But we are already seeing new viewpoints. There are people who spend vast sums of money on cryogenics preserving their body after death, in the hope they can be brought back to life one day, and cured of whatever killed them. This isn't quite cloning of course, and presupposes that the brain can be restarted so they are as they once were. But the seeds of change are there.




Wrong Chris,
Some of the things you say are right, but some are wrong. Everybody can be cloned, everyone that has ever lived. But especially the people God wants to come back. God has saved a DNA copy of the people who will get eternal life.

Chris a cloned human being is NOT a physical approximation! Its a perfect copy in every possible way. It just won't have the "memory" of the previous life. The cloned person will be just like your twin. But not all twin babies are identical. But occasionally, you do get identical twins. Your clone will be your twin. So occasionally nature does this anyway! There are lots of identical twins today anyway.

And no Chris, we are NOT lukewarm with cloning. There are thousands of labs around the world doing it every day. Not just to genetically modified crops, they are doing it with living creatures. Its not isolated Chris, its widespread at this stage. Its easy chris, when you know how it works.

Anyone that tried to "buy" their way into heaven by freezing their body in a cryogenic freezer won't be cloned as the sub-zero freezing will have destroyed their genes.

John.


Your understanding of the science appears to be in need of a little updating.

Freezing does not necessarily destroy genes, it's used routinely by sperm banks, where "[t]he sperm is stored in small vials or straws of holding between 0.4 and 1.0 ml and cryogenically preserved in liquid nitrogen tanks.".

Cloning of plants has been around for 1000s of years, every time a plant is propagated via a cutting a clone is created.

Cloning mammals is a different, and I believe Chris is right about the lukewarm nature of the public on the question of cloning humans, in many nations it is already explicitly illegal (unfortunately the database commonly linked appears to have moved though it is available via archive.org here, with this you'll see that the Council of Europe and it's member nations have agreed "Any intervention seeking to create a human being genetically identical to another human being, whether living or dead, is prohibited.").

____________
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1285531 - Posted: 19 Sep 2012, 16:27:37 UTC

Anyone that tried to "buy" their way into heaven by freezing their body in a cryogenic freezer won't be cloned as the sub-zero freezing will have destroyed their genes.
They are not buying a way to heaven... they are just buying a ticket to the future techonology... I doubt they even believe in heaven and eternal life in the spiritual way...

All these cloned people will still have a lifespan of about 80 or so years
God has saved a DNA copy of the people who will get eternal life.
Your idea of eternal life is a bit shorter than mine...

The Bible tells you to put your body under the ground for safe keeping.
The Bible tells you to put your body under the ground to avoid the spread of disease among people that were not aware of the existence of bacteria and viruses...
The Bible is full of good advices (and others not so good) disguised as "speech of God" because, for the people to whom the advices were directed were no able to understand the underlying explanations... In that times, priests were the more educated men (if not the only ones...)
Dont get me wrong, I believe in God, I just dont trust in those that claim that they are God's representatives...

God has a way of recording people's DNA code so that every single person can be brought back for the judgement.
a cloned human being is NOT a physical approximation! Its a perfect copy in every possible way. It just won't have the "memory" of the previous life.
Everybody will be judged according to their actions and deeds.
Not sure how "I" will be judged if my clone is who will be punished (or rewarded) and all my memories, personality and experiences will still be missing...


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Profile Johnney Guinness
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Message 1285580 - Posted: 19 Sep 2012, 18:07:56 UTC - in response to Message 1285516.


Your understanding of the science appears to be in need of a little updating.


And Bobby i suppose your going to update me with your extensive knowledge of genetics? Thanks, i look forward to that.

John.

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Message 1285584 - Posted: 19 Sep 2012, 18:15:07 UTC - in response to Message 1285531.
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Not sure how "I" will be judged if my clone is who will be punished (or rewarded) and all my memories, personality and experiences will still be missing...


Horacio,
With you sitting in front of your maker, your life will be played back before you. And you will be judged according to your actions and deeds.

It won't be much different to sitting in a modern court of law or court of justice for committing a crime today. But when the biblical judgement comes, its God's law that you will be answering too, not man made laws. And just like a court of law might use CCTV coverage and show film clips of your crimes, God's judgement will be similar.

John.

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Message boards : Politics : What would convert you to God?

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