What did God do before creation?


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Message 1288592 - Posted: 27 Sep 2012, 22:48:19 UTC - in response to Message 1288304.

[quote]It's simple. When I talk about the science of creation I do not interject my Faith into it. I don't even like to use the word--God. Intelligent agent, intelligence, maker, whatever word seems best at the time. It is not up to me to indoctrinate, or lead in any direction anyone about Who or What the Intelligent Agent is, it is up to them to place a name or what the agent/designer is.


Blankman" wrote:
To suggest a Designer of any sort, without any direct evidence (your misinterpretation of odds and your suggestion of DNA being unable to magically assemble are not considered supporting evidence by any definition), is to suggest a faith of some sort. Ergo, you are indeed interjecting your faith, but your faith blinds you from seeing that simple fact.


No, your blanket statement isn't worth the time it took you to type it.

I gave you two reasons. Odds, and magic. No such thing as magic and the odds are to long for chance happening. Your misinterpretation of both is to suggest a faith that you have in--nothing.


As I said...we cannot know what happened before our time line, nor does it matter. Logic dictates the designer stood outside out our time line since the designer made our time line.


"Blankman" wrote:
Two statements made without supporting evidence. If we cannot know what happened before our time, we cannot know that a Designer was there. Suggesting as much without supporting evidence is in fact a faith. This is why Intelligent Design is not a valid scientific theory, nor even a 'working' theory. It is a hypothesis that will remain so until supporting evidence can be discovered.



Well, lets see....

The universe is in 3D and a circle. The first stars were massive and circles, they made blackholes--that are circles. The next generation of stars were or course, circles. And so on.......

If we trace back in HISTORY what I posted above we see a design. Please tell me you see a circle as that design, please? Design by logic denotes intelligence.

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Message 1288597 - Posted: 27 Sep 2012, 23:07:43 UTC - in response to Message 1288592.

Well, lets see....

The universe is in 3D and a circle. The first stars were massive and circles, they made blackholes--that are circles. The next generation of stars were or course, circles. And so on.......

If we trace back in HISTORY what I posted above we see a design. Please tell me you see a circle as that design, please? Design by logic denotes intelligence.


A circle exists on a plane and is 2 dimensional, there are several 3D objects that will produce a circle via a cross section, cones, cylinders, spheroids, etc. What is your basis to suggest the universe is any particular shape?

Stars and planets are spheroids as a result of gravity and spin.
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Message 1288602 - Posted: 27 Sep 2012, 23:59:17 UTC - in response to Message 1288592.

No, your blanket statement isn't worth the time it took you to type it.


I largely agree, no matter how many times we have to correct your understanding of the English language, the scientific method, and mathematics, nearly everyone reading can see that I'm wasting my time responding. For you, Intelligent Design must be on the table in order to justify your belief in a God/Deity/Maker. For if there is no science backing it, you won't be able to rationalize believing. If only you could understand that this is the very basis for faith. You can still believe without there being an explanation for it.

But understanding that would not help you in your fight against agnostics/atheists, as your belief system dictates you defend mercilessly against all those that would deny a belief in a higher power.

I gave you two reasons. Odds, and magic. No such thing as magic and the odds are to long for chance happening. Your misinterpretation of both is to suggest a faith that you have in--nothing.


As repeated here ad infinitum, the mere fact that we are here means that there is at least one chance. No matter what the odds are, we are here. This very example does not denote a deity of any sort. Odds are just a way of figuring out the chances of something - it does not provide proof of a divine being except to maybe you and other ID proponents. This is the very basis if you misunderstanding of odds.

Turning around every argument you read does not strengthen your position. Most here will simply read that you are unable to defend yourself intellectually by actually responding to challenges posited to you, and by carefully explaining yourself so as to help others understand where you're coming from. Repeating one's arguments over and over while ignoring challenges means you don't have an argument - but we all know you will persist because your faith in a higher power demands you "defend" yourself and your beliefs. I could respect your religious perspectives so much more were you able to understand the arguments before you and acknowledge where you've misunderstood things that are well above your level of understanding.

Well, lets see....

The universe is in 3D and a circle. The first stars were massive and circles, they made blackholes--that are circles. The next generation of stars were or course, circles. And so on.......

If we trace back in HISTORY what I posted above we see a design. Please tell me you see a circle as that design, please? Design by logic denotes intelligence.


No, I don't see it as a design as you would suggest, but rather objects obeying the natural laws of the universe - laws that we are slowly discovering through the natural sciences to gain a better understanding of this universe we live in.

Now, I know you're going to suggest that something had to put those laws there, but that goes right back into the 'we haven't observed anything to support that claim' argument. I respect that you see it as Design, but understand that what you see as Design is only an assumption on your part, and one that supports your faith in a Designer.


But I know that not a single thing I say will sink through to you. You made it clear a while ago that you are:

Im very much a Christian man. Catholic. My Faith is a very important in my life. It permeates my whole life. I will not deny my God. I firmly believe in Intelligent Design. It is a science. I really don't care if you believe or like this fact, however, I will defend my God in forums. So you had better be on top of YOUR game if you wish to banter with me.


Absolutely nothing anyone can say can help you understand because your faith blocks you.

I don't have a problem with people who have faith - I just have a problem with people who don't understand science and think their faith is of a science (if there were proof, there would be no need for faith, which is why the two are always opposite of each other).

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Message 1288621 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 0:42:26 UTC

Quick question Intelligent Design, You keep saying you are a Catholic and believe in a designer, but the church rejects Intelligent Design, so what are you?

Intelligent Design belittles God, Vatican Observatory director says

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Message 1288800 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 13:34:13 UTC - in response to Message 1288621.

Quick question Intelligent Design, You keep saying you are a Catholic and believe in a designer, but the church rejects Intelligent Design, so what are you?

Intelligent Design belittles God, Vatican Observatory director says

Quick answer, what makes you think that one man can tell me what to believe and not believe?

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Message 1288830 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 14:55:15 UTC - in response to Message 1288800.

Quick question Intelligent Design, You keep saying you are a Catholic and believe in a designer, but the church rejects Intelligent Design, so what are you?

Intelligent Design belittles God, Vatican Observatory director says

Quick answer, what makes you think that one man can tell me what to believe and not believe?


The Pope?
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Message 1288843 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 15:25:46 UTC - in response to Message 1288830.

Quick question Intelligent Design, You keep saying you are a Catholic and believe in a designer, but the church rejects Intelligent Design, so what are you?

Intelligent Design belittles God, Vatican Observatory director says

Quick answer, what makes you think that one man can tell me what to believe and not believe?


The Pope?

So you profess to be a catholic, and yet you choose not to follow the teachings of the Pope.

In case you missed it, or as usual failed to read the link, the last Pope said, in this quote from the article.

Pope John Paul Paul II, he adds, told the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in 1996 that “new scientific knowledge has led us to the conclusion that the theory of evolution is no longer a mere hypothesis.”


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Message 1288846 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 15:29:34 UTC - in response to Message 1288843.


The Pope?

So you profess to be a catholic, and yet you choose not to follow the teachings of the Pope.

In case you missed it, or as usual failed to read the link, the last Pope said, in this quote from the article.

Pope John Paul Paul II, he adds, told the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in 1996 that “new scientific knowledge has led us to the conclusion that the theory of evolution is no longer a mere hypothesis.”




For me or I.D.? If me, no I was only baptised & the catholic church are just another bunch of cultists!
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Message 1288867 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 15:56:47 UTC - in response to Message 1288846.


The Pope?

So you profess to be a catholic, and yet you choose not to follow the teachings of the Pope.

In case you missed it, or as usual failed to read the link, the last Pope said, in this quote from the article.

Pope John Paul Paul II, he adds, told the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in 1996 that “new scientific knowledge has led us to the conclusion that the theory of evolution is no longer a mere hypothesis.”




For me or I.D.? If me, no I was only baptised & the catholic church are just another bunch of cultists!

For I.D.

Sorry if you think I was questioning your religious status. AFAIK you have never claimed repeatedly to be a practicing member of a church.

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Message 1288870 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 16:03:44 UTC - in response to Message 1288867.

Not a problem WK. I've always believed that regardless of how many religions out in the wild, one's belief is one's own.

The way I.D. consistently posts, leads me to believe that he's my twin: -

I'm the sarcasm king & he's the "wind-up" king. Nothing he says "gells".
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Message 1288884 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 16:19:30 UTC - in response to Message 1288843.

Quick question Intelligent Design, You keep saying you are a Catholic and believe in a designer, but the church rejects Intelligent Design, so what are you?

Intelligent Design belittles God, Vatican Observatory director says

Quick answer, what makes you think that one man can tell me what to believe and not believe?


The Pope?

So you profess to be a catholic, and yet you choose not to follow the teachings of the Pope.

In case you missed it, or as usual failed to read the link, the last Pope said, in this quote from the article.

Pope John Paul Paul II, he adds, told the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in 1996 that “new scientific knowledge has led us to the conclusion that the theory of evolution is no longer a mere hypothesis.”



Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes.
Pope John Paul II

I have in THIS VERY THREAD said that Intelligent Design does not reject the ToE. It rejects just one part of it, chance.

You are treading on my Faith. You are going places that YOU do not belong. YOU are making statements that YOU have no right to make. YOU do not have the right to tell me that I am not following my Faith.

One of the rules here is NOT to do what you have just done. I have NOT red x'ed any of your posts here as of this date and time. I will do so if you DO NOT take my advise.

Your hypothesis that I do not know my own Faith is incorrect.

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Message 1288894 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 16:43:06 UTC - in response to Message 1288884.

Quick question Intelligent Design, You keep saying you are a Catholic and believe in a designer, but the church rejects Intelligent Design, so what are you?

Intelligent Design belittles God, Vatican Observatory director says

Quick answer, what makes you think that one man can tell me what to believe and not believe?


The Pope?

So you profess to be a catholic, and yet you choose not to follow the teachings of the Pope.

In case you missed it, or as usual failed to read the link, the last Pope said, in this quote from the article.

Pope John Paul Paul II, he adds, told the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in 1996 that “new scientific knowledge has led us to the conclusion that the theory of evolution is no longer a mere hypothesis.”



Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes.
Pope John Paul II

I have in THIS VERY THREAD said that Intelligent Design does not reject the ToE. It rejects just one part of it, chance.

You are treading on my Faith. You are going places that YOU do not belong. YOU are making statements that YOU have no right to make. YOU do not have the right to tell me that I am not following my Faith.

One of the rules here is NOT to do what you have just done. I have NOT red x'ed any of your posts here as of this date and time. I will do so if you DO NOT take my advise.

Your hypothesis that I do not know my own Faith is incorrect.


Intelligent Design rejects chance, which is a fundamental component of the theory of Evolution. The Pope made no such caveat when he accepted the theory. QED the ID Hypothesis is in contradiction with the teachings of the Pope (and thus the Catholic Church).

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Message 1288917 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 17:17:12 UTC

I am a Practicing Catholic. I have said this and more at this site.

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Message 1288919 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 17:18:08 UTC

Stop waisting my time bobby. You are ignored...

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Message 1288936 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 17:46:02 UTC

Certain things have more than one possible outcome, such as flipping a coin. Sample space = {Heads, Tails}.
We cannot predict in advance of a coin toss which side it will land on. "We do not believe in clairvoyance." [smile]. ;-)
However, though we cannot predict the individual outcomes of these random events, in the long run, patterns of regularity emerge.
1 / 10^(10^128) is a calculation of a chance ... a probability. Such numbers should not be referred to by those who have rejected chance. (But, of course, such people have also rejected clairvoyance, and are now in an awfully muddy circle.)

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Message 1288951 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 18:10:04 UTC - in response to Message 1288917.

I am a Practicing Catholic. I have said this and more at this site.


If the Roman Catholic church were to reject Intelligent Design, will you follow the leaders of your church or will you join a sect that cannot see the truth?

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Message 1288984 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 19:12:02 UTC - in response to Message 1288919.

Stop waisting my time bobby. You are ignored...


Clearly :-). Shame that you have not responded to 1288590, it would be nice to know which question it is you think has not been answered.
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Message 1288992 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 19:35:21 UTC - in response to Message 1288984.

Stop waisting my time bobby. You are ignored...


Clearly :-). Shame that you have not responded to 1288590, it would be nice to know which question it is you think has not been answered.

True...And TRY to Stay ON TOPIC!
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Message 1289010 - Posted: 28 Sep 2012, 20:24:17 UTC
Last modified: 29 Sep 2012, 21:06:06 UTC

In addition, keep it civil.
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Message 1289767 - Posted: 30 Sep 2012, 16:26:59 UTC

There's been quite a lot said in here but I haven't been offered a satisfying answer.
The only response that sort of tried was to state God exists outside our time frame. Still most disappointing.

Who cares if God exists outside our time frame? What was he doing where ever he was?

The followers of religious beliefs like to insert religion as an explanation when science admits that it has no answer at this time. An admission such as this doesn't mean that there truly is no answer, it just means that science hasn't found it yet.
Here was a golden opportunity for the Godists to show their stuff, and they have failed, again.


____________
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.”
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