I started to respond to this in another thread, but I was drifting so far off the topic that I figured I should start a new thread.

(From Dan Bur Michel)
> i always knew we would have computers this fast and star trek (cellphone)
> communicators...i just didn't think it would take this long for the technology
> to advance...i'm still waiting for humans to attempt manned interplanetary
> expeditions...we are way behind in space exploration...at least according to
> my expectation...sometmes i feel i am from the future and am just sitting here
> waiting for my ride home to be invented.

My biggest disappointment with the space program is the International Space Station itself and the lack of vision it represents. Here's a construction project that will be a third of the way through its operational life by the time it's completed. Then they'll probably de-orbit it just like all the rest. We spend so much money getting all this junk into orbit and there's no sustainability, no recycling, no industry. All agencies are so busy studying the microscopic effects of this and that it seems that no agency wants to tackle the big problems, like building a foundry or getting facilities needed for a more self-sustained presence. Whatever happened to the vision of a large spinning torus hull so crews don't HAVE to suffer microgravity constantly? Maybe spend some millions less and put off a few science projects now and redirect the investment into an infrastructure that makes future experiments easier.

And seems to me that our space program would be an easier sell if at least a few of the stated mission goals didn't make my neighbor's eyes glaze over in incomprehension. Notice ol' Bushie-boy's "Mars or Bust" announcement was more of a hit precisely BECAUSE it was something the average hick-cowboy-wannnabe could wrap his head around.

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Reminds me of when I was a kid and some New Englander said we will land on the moon and return back to Earth (and something about being a jelly doughnut)

>
> My biggest disappointment with the space program is the International Space
> Station itself and the lack of vision it represents. Here's a construction
> project that will be a third of the way through its operational life by the
> time it's completed. Then they'll probably de-orbit it just like all the
> rest. We spend so much money getting all this junk into orbit and there's no
> sustainability, no recycling, no industry. All agencies are so busy studying
> the microscopic effects of this and that it seems that no agency wants to
> tackle the big problems, like building a foundry or getting facilities needed
> for a more self-sustained presence. Whatever happened to the vision of a
> large spinning torus hull so crews don't HAVE to suffer microgravity
> constantly? Maybe spend some millions less and put off a few science projects
> now and redirect the investment into an infrastructure that makes future
> experiments easier.
>
> And seems to me that our space program would be an easier sell if at least a
> few of the stated mission goals didn't make my neighbor's eyes glaze over in
> incomprehension. Notice ol' Bushie-boy's "Mars or Bust" announcement was more
> of a hit precisely BECAUSE it was something the average hick-cowboy-wannnabe
> could wrap his head around.
>

i agree with you on th ISS...it seems to be very much a larger version of MIR...i'm sure there is valid research going on there...but much of the mission seems to be dedicated to seeing if the occupants can survive the microgravity...and the boredom.

as for BUSH'S "mars or bust" declaration...like many of the things he has said...his declaration seems to lack conviction...and of course the supposed initiative is lacking meaningful funding.

it is hard to get behind a program that seems to have no meaniingfull goal...i remember a time when things were different...when space exploration was a national dream...and many of the technologies we enjoy today are the children of that effort...if we could get beyond the "live for today, profit for today" attitude that seems to rule society now...we could see a similar payoff in high technology...and yes profit (for those who require it) in the future.

meanwhile many dreams languish...victims of a worldwide lack of vision.

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PROUD TO BE TFFE!

> as for BUSH'S "mars or bust" declaration...like many of the things he has
> said...his declaration seems to lack conviction...and of course the supposed
> initiative is lacking meaningful funding.

I hear you there, friend. I was cautiously optimistic during the State of the Union address a couple years ago where W announced funding for hydrogen transportation research. I say cautious because I was disappointed but not too surprised when there was no tangible result. So I completely discounted "Mars or bust" as a not too subtle attempt to swing a few votes.

> it is hard to get behind a program that seems to have no meaniingfull goal...i
> remember a time when things were different...when space exploration was a
> national dream...and many of the technologies we enjoy today are the children
> of that effort...if we could get beyond the "live for today, profit for today"

I want to believe that the space efforts of the sixties were inspired at the top by a loftier purpose, but I'm afraid I've grown cynical in my old age. Knowing more about the politics of the time and the physics behind certain things it seems to me now that most of the support at the top was just to beat the USSR to the goal; the message was "if you harbor any notion of exploiting the moon, remember it's really expensive and we can get there first." And above all, it was a PR coup for the west. That's the only reason I can see why support for the lunar missions rapidly evaporated on BOTH sides, the USSR never attempting to prove they could do it too.

I think we're bust. I'd love to be in space for a day or two. Nothing special. Maybe a trip 'round Luna's hidden hemisphere, but that's all I need. And it looks like Virgin will supply.

I don't think that NASA will be in any condition to go to Mars in even 50 years. I'd wager that China and Russia get to the Moon before a Mars attempt is made. Then again, NASA is considering fusion power, so who knows?

There are only two things that bug me about the ISS. First, it's referred to as Alpha. It isn't. If my memory isn't too rusty, I remember that there was SkyLab and Mir, so if anything it should be Gamma instead. The second thing was the Mir would have been perfect for piecing ISS together - You could build the parts, send them up on a weekly basis, and Mir would "house" the construction crew while ISS was being put together.

It's discussions like these that conjure up thoughts of Voyager, Hubble, and Mir. It seems that the less we ask for, the greater the return.

> I think we're bust. I'd love to be in space for a day or two. Nothing
> special. Maybe a trip 'round Luna's hidden hemisphere, but that's all I need.
> And it looks like Virgin will supply.
>
> I don't think that NASA will be in any condition to go to Mars in even 50
> years. I'd wager that China and Russia get to the Moon before a Mars attempt
> is made. Then again, NASA is considering fusion power, so who knows?
>
> There are only two things that bug me about the ISS. First, it's referred to
> as Alpha. It isn't. If my memory isn't too rusty, I remember that there was
> SkyLab and Mir, so if anything it should be Gamma instead. The second thing
> was the Mir would have been perfect for piecing ISS together - You could build
> the parts, send them up on a weekly basis, and Mir would "house" the
> construction crew while ISS was being put together.
>
> It's discussions like these that conjure up thoughts of Voyager, Hubble, and
> Mir. It seems that the less we ask for, the greater the return.
>


i think it's no coincidence the "alpha" name hasn't stuck...it's still mainly referred to as "the international space station" in media accounts.

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PROUD TO BE TFFE!

perhaps the day of government funded space programs is passing...god knows anyone could get it done cheaper than the goverment can anyway...my thought is that someday a mega-billionaire who wants to leave a mark on history will commission an effort to explore inter-planetary space...government funded space programs are all about compromise...a mega-billionaire might be a person with enough vision to embark upon a goal that is more lofty and meaningful...after all...you can't take it with you...in the end wouldn't a history making leap into the future be a better legacy than a bunch of rich relatives.

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PROUD TO BE TFFE!

In the left corner, Virgin Galactic. In the right corner, Microsoft Mars.