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OzzFan
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Message 1291248 - Posted: 4 Oct 2012, 16:22:59 UTC - in response to Message 1291217.

And, even if the updates were not available at all, at that time you will have worst issues than not being able to update it... Im sure, you will be forced to upgrade the OS due to the lack of drivers, or even lack of compatible apps...


No one forces you to buy new hardware or software that won't run on an older OS. It is a person's choice to do these things.

Well, not literally forced, but things broke over time... sooner or later you will need to replace something in your computer and it wont be easy to find compatible replacements at reasonable prices...


A savvy shopper can find things cheaper than buying a new computer (depending on the specs of that new computer). Never underestimate the motivation to keep what one is comfortable with.

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Message 1291250 - Posted: 4 Oct 2012, 16:25:07 UTC - in response to Message 1291226.

And In my case that was true. Old hard drive versus SATA hard drive. Had to do a lot of adapting but the thing is running. And it was for me, At a reasonable price.

Computers are like airplanes. They can fly as long as you can find or make parts. But eventually comes the day when it just costs to much have them fly.


But you had other options. Granted, you may not have been comfortable with those options, but other people may be. I can find plenty of used or old "new" inventory on places like eBay where you can find IDE hard drives that would have worked with your computer.

There are always choices. Just because they're ones we don't like doesn't mean they were never a choice.

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Message 1291257 - Posted: 4 Oct 2012, 16:31:30 UTC - in response to Message 1291250.

And In my case that was true. Old hard drive versus SATA hard drive. Had to do a lot of adapting but the thing is running. And it was for me, At a reasonable price.

Computers are like airplanes. They can fly as long as you can find or make parts. But eventually comes the day when it just costs to much have them fly.


But you had other options. Granted, you may not have been comfortable with those options, but other people may be. I can find plenty of used or old "new" inventory on places like eBay where you can find IDE hard drives that would have worked with your computer.

There are always choices. Just because they're ones we don't like doesn't mean they were never a choice.


That is true, As im almost a Luddite, I dont trust E-bay. But I have found that I really liked the challenge of fixing my own stuff. And my next computer will be built by me.
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Message 1291266 - Posted: 4 Oct 2012, 16:38:36 UTC - in response to Message 1291257.

And In my case that was true. Old hard drive versus SATA hard drive. Had to do a lot of adapting but the thing is running. And it was for me, At a reasonable price.

Computers are like airplanes. They can fly as long as you can find or make parts. But eventually comes the day when it just costs to much have them fly.


But you had other options. Granted, you may not have been comfortable with those options, but other people may be. I can find plenty of used or old "new" inventory on places like eBay where you can find IDE hard drives that would have worked with your computer.

There are always choices. Just because they're ones we don't like doesn't mean they were never a choice.


That is true, As im almost a Luddite, I dont trust E-bay. But I have found that I really liked the challenge of fixing my own stuff. And my next computer will be built by me.


So then you made a choice which then required you to buy an additional adapter to make it work with your existing computer. Nothing wrong with that. Many people make the same or similar decision(s).

But it's important to highlight that no one is forced into any of this. There is a lot more choice than people seem to even think about in their daily lives.


By the way - if you have any questions about building that next computer, feel free to ask any of us (as I'm sure you would). To this day building my own computer is still one of the funnest things I enjoy doing (even if it has become extremely simple these days).

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Message 1291271 - Posted: 4 Oct 2012, 16:50:26 UTC

Rest assured I will be posting and asking for help when I do get around to doing a build.
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Message 1291326 - Posted: 4 Oct 2012, 18:18:28 UTC - in response to Message 1291266.

So then you made a choice which then required you to buy an additional adapter to make it work with your existing computer. Nothing wrong with that. Many people make the same or similar decision(s).

But it's important to highlight that no one is forced into any of this. There is a lot more choice than people seem to even think about in their daily lives.


By the way - if you have any questions about building that next computer, feel free to ask any of us (as I'm sure you would). To this day building my own computer is still one of the funnest things I enjoy doing (even if it has become extremely simple these days).

Snort.

Okay, lets see you find a hard drive to replace the one that has failed on a computer that is in the recycling bin. It is a 10 Mega Byte hard drive with a proprietary controller. It goes into a Lisa. Have fun.

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Message 1291330 - Posted: 4 Oct 2012, 18:24:33 UTC - in response to Message 1291326.
Last modified: 4 Oct 2012, 18:30:18 UTC

So then you made a choice which then required you to buy an additional adapter to make it work with your existing computer. Nothing wrong with that. Many people make the same or similar decision(s).

But it's important to highlight that no one is forced into any of this. There is a lot more choice than people seem to even think about in their daily lives.


By the way - if you have any questions about building that next computer, feel free to ask any of us (as I'm sure you would). To this day building my own computer is still one of the funnest things I enjoy doing (even if it has become extremely simple these days).

Snort.

Okay, lets see you find a hard drive to replace the one that has failed on a computer that is in the recycling bin. It is a 10 Mega Byte hard drive with a proprietary controller. It goes into a Lisa. Have fun.


Time, patience and determination are all one needs. It is your choice to give up looking and it is your choice to decide it is not worth your time.

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Message 1291349 - Posted: 4 Oct 2012, 19:24:32 UTC - in response to Message 1291326.

Snort.

Okay, lets see you find a hard drive to replace the one that has failed on a computer that is in the recycling bin. It is a 10 Mega Byte hard drive with a proprietary controller. It goes into a Lisa. Have fun.


Got a few 10's as well as 20's & a couple of 40mb's, all Conner's.
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Message 1291404 - Posted: 4 Oct 2012, 22:14:25 UTC - in response to Message 1291349.

Snort.

Okay, lets see you find a hard drive to replace the one that has failed on a computer that is in the recycling bin. It is a 10 Mega Byte hard drive with a proprietary controller. It goes into a Lisa. Have fun.


Got a few 10's as well as 20's & a couple of 40mb's, all Conner's.

Fine and dandy, but it wouldn't work, different controller, cabling, etc. This was pure proprietary. Shugart Technology likely made the bare drive, but Apple put their own electronics on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_ProFile
Later Lisa models could be configured with an internal 10 MB "Widget" voice-coil drive with a proprietary controller designed and built entirely by Apple, but the Widget was never offered as an external product for use with other Apple computers.


When the production run ended, that was it period.

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Message 1291407 - Posted: 4 Oct 2012, 22:16:32 UTC - in response to Message 1291330.

Time, patience and determination are all one needs. It is your choice to give up looking and it is your choice to decide it is not worth your time.

If I want someone else's 30 year old used hard drive ... like that is a useful option ...

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Message 1291418 - Posted: 4 Oct 2012, 23:03:51 UTC - in response to Message 1291407.

Time, patience and determination are all one needs. It is your choice to give up looking and it is your choice to decide it is not worth your time.

If I want someone else's 30 year old used hard drive ... like that is a useful option ...


As I said previously, there are options whether we like them or not, doesn't mean they never were an option to begin with.

Yes, a case can be made for practical choices, and that within the limit of practical choices we're forced into some decisions, but that's really us limiting ourselves because we don't like the other options that are non-practical. I admit, I do this all the time too, but I still know when I'm making a choice and when I'm truly being forced.

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Message 1291457 - Posted: 5 Oct 2012, 1:12:32 UTC - in response to Message 1291418.

Time, patience and determination are all one needs. It is your choice to give up looking and it is your choice to decide it is not worth your time.

If I want someone else's 30 year old used hard drive ... like that is a useful option ...


As I said previously, there are options whether we like them or not, doesn't mean they never were an option to begin with.

Yes, a case can be made for practical choices, and that within the limit of practical choices we're forced into some decisions, but that's really us limiting ourselves because we don't like the other options that are non-practical. I admit, I do this all the time too, but I still know when I'm making a choice and when I'm truly being forced.

So spending the USA GDP each week to keep something going isn't being forced. Like your thinking.

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Message 1291474 - Posted: 5 Oct 2012, 2:15:32 UTC - in response to Message 1291457.

Time, patience and determination are all one needs. It is your choice to give up looking and it is your choice to decide it is not worth your time.

If I want someone else's 30 year old used hard drive ... like that is a useful option ...


As I said previously, there are options whether we like them or not, doesn't mean they never were an option to begin with.

Yes, a case can be made for practical choices, and that within the limit of practical choices we're forced into some decisions, but that's really us limiting ourselves because we don't like the other options that are non-practical. I admit, I do this all the time too, but I still know when I'm making a choice and when I'm truly being forced.

So spending the USA GDP each week to keep something going isn't being forced. Like your thinking.


You have a choice to spend that kind of money or to buy something new. Where's the force part?

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Message 1291513 - Posted: 5 Oct 2012, 5:11:32 UTC - in response to Message 1291474.

Time, patience and determination are all one needs. It is your choice to give up looking and it is your choice to decide it is not worth your time.

If I want someone else's 30 year old used hard drive ... like that is a useful option ...


As I said previously, there are options whether we like them or not, doesn't mean they never were an option to begin with.

Yes, a case can be made for practical choices, and that within the limit of practical choices we're forced into some decisions, but that's really us limiting ourselves because we don't like the other options that are non-practical. I admit, I do this all the time too, but I still know when I'm making a choice and when I'm truly being forced.

So spending the USA GDP each week to keep something going isn't being forced. Like your thinking.


You have a choice to spend that kind of money or to buy something new. Where's the force part?

Good question to ask the FAA on their vacuum tube ATC computers and Radar. Oh wait. They were forced to upgrade. Seems they ran out of people able to make new spare parts. That is what happens to old tech. Unless there is call for it the artistry of manufacture is lost and every part that was ever made will fail. Or do you deny that they will all fail? Suppose they got some smart guy to build a transistor replacement for that vacuum tube. Wait, that is an upgrade itself. Forced.

On the software side of the house we got our first lesson with Y2K. However I suppose you are going to say the user could have patched it himself. Unfortunately with IP rights being as they are, reverse engineering the software to patch it is illegal. So that isn't an option. Besides, it doesn't matter who does the patch, the patch itself is an upgrade.

Hey, try doing online banking with Netscape 1.0. Bet that goes far. Even if you threw large sums of cash at the bank so they hired a web designer for Netscape 1.0, guess what? Congress has passed laws mandating better security than Netscape 1.0 provides. Again, forced upgrade.

I get that for some time after practically may be the factor in an upgrade decision, but at some point it becomes impossible not to upgrade simply because the ability to repair goes away and you must engineer a repair and that is the point you yourself are doing an upgrade.

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Message 1291818 - Posted: 5 Oct 2012, 23:22:39 UTC - in response to Message 1291513.

Good question to ask the FAA on their vacuum tube ATC computers and Radar. Oh wait. They were forced to upgrade. Seems they ran out of people able to make new spare parts.


Sounds like someone made a choice in regards to training or hiring people to make new parts. <snicker> Yeah, I can see how they were forced.

That is what happens to old tech. Unless there is call for it the artistry of manufacture is lost and every part that was ever made will fail. Or do you deny that they will all fail? Suppose they got some smart guy to build a transistor replacement for that vacuum tube. Wait, that is an upgrade itself. Forced.


So now we're calling replacement parts "forced upgrades"? That's an interesting view.

On the software side of the house we got our first lesson with Y2K.


A choice was made to store the year as two digits. The was a choice made to repair it or replace it.

However I suppose you are going to say the user could have patched it himself.


No, I wouldn't suggest such a thing. But the user does have a choice to fix it or ignore it. Again, a non-practical choice is still a choice.

Besides, it doesn't matter who does the patch, the patch itself is an upgrade.


There's a choice to leave it broken.

Hey, try doing online banking with Netscape 1.0. Bet that goes far. Even if you threw large sums of cash at the bank so they hired a web designer for Netscape 1.0, guess what? Congress has passed laws mandating better security than Netscape 1.0 provides. Again, forced upgrade.


Or you can do your banking the old-fashioned way. You can still use Netscape 1.0 if you want. It won't work very well, but no one is forcing you to upgrade.

I get that for some time after practically may be the factor in an upgrade decision, but at some point it becomes impossible not to upgrade simply because the ability to repair goes away and you must engineer a repair and that is the point you yourself are doing an upgrade.


I'd hate to live in your world where there are so few choices.

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Message 1291835 - Posted: 6 Oct 2012, 0:40:43 UTC - in response to Message 1291818.

... I'd hate to live in your world where there are so few choices.

And then there are such as Microsoft and Apple who appear to have very deliberate policies of non-backwards compatibility and deliberate obsolescence to force users to buy everything they have again anew.

I suppose at least Apple put people on a pseudo-religious ego trip to have them believe that they are somehow 'progressing' 'upwards' on each 'upgrade' cycle.

And how frequent are those upgrade cycles?


I have my cynical suspicions when products are named very prominently with a year or date as part of the product name... So they are no good for the next year?


Happy crunchin',
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Message 1291839 - Posted: 6 Oct 2012, 0:44:49 UTC - in response to Message 1291835.

It's your choice to buy into the marketing or your choice to keep what you have.

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Message 1291853 - Posted: 6 Oct 2012, 1:19:45 UTC - in response to Message 1291839.

It's your choice to buy into the marketing or your choice to keep what you have.

And when you get emailed a ".docx" to your trusty old Win95 + Office95 ".doc"-only system and your customer can't understand why you don't know what they want?...

And worse still, your customer knows nothing of IT other than "click-and-IT-works"...


Good luck with that one without being forced to embrace change!

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Message 1291855 - Posted: 6 Oct 2012, 1:25:26 UTC - in response to Message 1291839.
Last modified: 6 Oct 2012, 1:26:15 UTC

It's your choice to buy into the marketing or your choice to keep what you have.

And then for the more recent 6-monthly 'upgrade' cycles, you're obviously out of touch with just how much personalised Marketing pressure is brought to bear on the poor punters...

For example: Why would people queue up for hours round a shiny shop to pay over the odds for year-old out of date mobile tech, that was being hyped with falsely restricted supply, that was actually suffering a surplus of supply just the very next day?...


The power of Marketing should not be underestimated!

All in our only world,
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Message 1291882 - Posted: 6 Oct 2012, 2:34:07 UTC - in response to Message 1291853.

It's your choice to buy into the marketing or your choice to keep what you have.

And when you get emailed a ".docx" to your trusty old Win95 + Office95 ".doc"-only system and your customer can't understand why you don't know what they want?...

And worse still, your customer knows nothing of IT other than "click-and-IT-works"...

Good luck with that one without being forced to embrace change!


You can choose to take it to a third party, or hire outsourced IT to assist you.

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