So Just What Do Illegals/Asylum Seekers Get


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Terror Australis
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Message 1266955 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 7:50:18 UTC
Last modified: 3 Aug 2012, 7:52:50 UTC

This thread is inspired by a comment by msattler in another thread

Close the borders and immediately deport all illegals and quash all tax-sucking benefits many of them now enjoy at our expense. No more handouts to those in this country illegally. Period, no discussion.

I see the comments about all "the tax sucking benefits" that illegals in the US and "boat people" here in Oz supposedly get all the time, and if some of the emails that circulate on the subject are to be believed these benefits are enough to put the recipient into the 1%.

I would imagine that a person living illegally (as opposed to being granted a refugee visa) in any country would get zilch in the way of government welfare, except maybe health care at a public hospital.

Does anyone really know just what benefits (if any) they get ?

T.A.

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Message 1267073 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 14:45:18 UTC
Last modified: 3 Aug 2012, 14:46:40 UTC

Does anyone really know just what benefits (if any) they get ?

Yes.

In the UK there are a number of traditionally bad paying service industries, e.g. the catering and hotel sectors. If you turn up at the back door of the kitchen without a passport or visa, but are prepared to work long hours for less than average pay, with no questions asked, you will more than likely be taken on.

Arrive at a building site in similar circumstances, and you'll quite likely be given a "start" as a labourer on a cash in hand, day to day basis. It's what is known as the black economy. Suits both sides not to be on the books. The Tax and immigration people know it goes on but they can't police everywhere.

The politicians know it goes on, but they are prepared to turn a blind eye to it, as they know full well that British workers simply will not take those sort of jobs that they consider to be demeaning. They would rather exist on benefits. We all muddle on.

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Message 1267085 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 15:22:28 UTC

They get all the benefits that Obama claims, you didn't build your business. They get free medical care if they turn up at a hospital. They don't have to pay taxes on their cash wages. They don't have social security or medicare taken out of their wages. They get special treatment if they apply to be legal.


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Message 1267090 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 15:30:09 UTC

We both have a similar problem each side of the pond.

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Message 1267119 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 17:02:35 UTC - in response to Message 1267085.
Last modified: 3 Aug 2012, 17:13:24 UTC

.....They get free medical care if they turn up at a hospital.

check

They don't have to pay taxes on their cash wages.

Actually they do have to to pay taxes on their income, both they and their employer are in breach of the tax laws if they don't. If they were caught they could be charged with tax evasion. Also the cash economy is not restricted to illegals

They don't have social security or medicare taken out of their wages.

But then they don't get Social Security or Medicare benefits either

They get special treatment if they apply to be legal.

And when they become legal they pay taxes and the Medicare levy, buy property and put money into the "real" economy. Problem solved :-)

No-one has answered my original question. What Government benefits do illegal immigrants in a country (any country, US, UK, Aus. Wherever) actually get ? Can anyone prove the original charge that they are bludging off the taxpayer ?

T.A.

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Message 1267195 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 19:10:28 UTC - in response to Message 1267119.

.....They get free medical care if they turn up at a hospital.

check

They don't have to pay taxes on their cash wages.

Actually they do have to to pay taxes on their income, both they and their employer are in breach of the tax laws if they don't. If they were caught they could be charged with tax evasion. Also the cash economy is not restricted to illegals

They don't have social security or medicare taken out of their wages.

But then they don't get Social Security or Medicare benefits either

They get special treatment if they apply to be legal.

And when they become legal they pay taxes and the Medicare levy, buy property and put money into the "real" economy. Problem solved :-)

No-one has answered my original question. What Government benefits do illegal immigrants in a country (any country, US, UK, Aus. Wherever) actually get ? Can anyone prove the original charge that they are bludging off the taxpayer ?

T.A.

Who pays for that free medical care? The government.

They also can qualify for TANF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Assistance_for_Needy_Families#Funding_and_eligibility
States cannot use TANF funds to assist most legal immigrants until they have been in the country for at least 5 years.


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Message 1267196 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 19:11:56 UTC - in response to Message 1267195.


Who pays for that free medical care? The government.

And who pays for the government?
I do.
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Message 1267198 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 19:15:36 UTC

And I ask you, what other developed country in this world leaves their gates open so freely.
And on top of it, has a President who says 'Aw, shucks folks, let 'em in and give them the golden keys to the crapper...they vote for me.'
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Message 1267229 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 20:32:50 UTC - in response to Message 1267085.

Gary, quite often they are in fact on the books (perhaps with false social security numbers). What happens then is that the FICA payments go into a government black hole -- no credit to the worker but a money deposit nonetheless.

Increasingly businesses are held to checks on status for employees.

Of course there ARE cash economy games out there -- particularly day labor folks, house cleaning folks - people working for private individuals. But absent proof, I'm inclined to believe that is not as large a proportion as the 'hispanics are evil' folks portray.

There is as well (I suspect you are quite aware of this) an increasing number (and with the ongoing economic issues in this country an increasing proportion) of 'ethnics' -- hispanic and asian in particular, who ARE legal residents, who do work 'real' jobs and who do contribute to the country in fully legal status.

Often enough, these *legal* folks also work in jobs and at wages below the 'dignity' of 'native' Americans -- and perform those jobs with a level of diligence that should be recognized.



They get all the benefits that Obama claims, you didn't build your business. They get free medical care if they turn up at a hospital. They don't have to pay taxes on their cash wages. They don't have social security or medicare taken out of their wages. They get special treatment if they apply to be legal.



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Message 1267254 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 21:26:20 UTC - in response to Message 1266955.

Does anyone really know just what benefits (if any) they get ?

T.A.

Here it's called "a free pass."
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Message 1267286 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 22:49:57 UTC - in response to Message 1267229.

Barry, it depends on where they work. In traditional day labor jobs no one even bothers to get a number; no I-9 forms, no W-4 forms, cash only. If they are in a factory, they get a false number but they get paid by check, not cash.

I know of a place that moved into the building my former employer vacated and got an ICE/INS raid after they had been there two months. Seems that a person in HR was tasked with getting false papers for the workers. About 2/3 of the workers were placed into custody as well as executives of the company.

As to the normal place, it takes about two years to get a "no match letter" or a "B" notice. Then they still can't do anything except have a little chat.

The smart ones get a name and number that matches. That costs more of course. Might never get caught. IRS and SSA may know that more than one person is using the number and even go so far as to keep separate accounts, but they have no way of knowing who (which address, employer) the number actually belongs to.

As to illegals, had two recent ones at work. Found out about both when they showed up in HR with brand spanking new work authorizations with their real names on them. One had been on the payroll for 10 years. That one I understand, he had been using his dad's ID. The other was a wet who came across in a diaper.

Got another, a legal, who has a tax garnishment, but that is another story.

As to how many are legal or illegal, where I am employed, East Los Angeles, or Little TJ, I'd guess about an 80/20 mix.

As to work, the "ethnics" are a heck of a lot better workers for doing muscle work than an American prima donna.

Yes, Barry, I know this all too well.

Gary, quite often they are in fact on the books (perhaps with false social security numbers). What happens then is that the FICA payments go into a government black hole -- no credit to the worker but a money deposit nonetheless.

Increasingly businesses are held to checks on status for employees.

Of course there ARE cash economy games out there -- particularly day labor folks, house cleaning folks - people working for private individuals. But absent proof, I'm inclined to believe that is not as large a proportion as the 'hispanics are evil' folks portray.

There is as well (I suspect you are quite aware of this) an increasing number (and with the ongoing economic issues in this country an increasing proportion) of 'ethnics' -- hispanic and asian in particular, who ARE legal residents, who do work 'real' jobs and who do contribute to the country in fully legal status.

Often enough, these *legal* folks also work in jobs and at wages below the 'dignity' of 'native' Americans -- and perform those jobs with a level of diligence that should be recognized.



They get all the benefits that Obama claims, you didn't build your business. They get free medical care if they turn up at a hospital. They don't have to pay taxes on their cash wages. They don't have social security or medicare taken out of their wages. They get special treatment if they apply to be legal.




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Message 1267298 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 23:16:43 UTC - in response to Message 1267286.

OK Gary -- you understand this well since you are in a location with a heavy concentration (border and history for sure). So am I (Phoenix metro). On top of that you work in a situation where you have lot's of contact with both legals and illegals.

By and large I don't.

We have a lawn service here -- when the state laws were changed three or four years back, requiring company validation for licensing, what I noticed with our lawn service is that the language used did NOT change, but the age of the crew DID -- instead of workers in their 20's, I see workers in their 30's and 40's. My guess is that the company (which has been in business for nearly 30 years and runs over a half dozen regular crews in the city) made sure that they were in compliance. These folks are all on regular payroll (I know the owner since we started working with him when he was doing the yards himself nearly 30 years ago).

Of course, in our area, we have Sheriff Joe going around and doing stops for folks that 'looking foreign'. (Then again, Sheriff Joe's boys don't bother with sexual abuse cases which is also their remit).

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Message 1267362 - Posted: 4 Aug 2012, 3:29:35 UTC
Last modified: 4 Aug 2012, 3:30:48 UTC

I don't post here often, but as an immegrant myself, I need to speak out.
I got a fast track visa 32 yrs ago. It seems, my ex brother in law can do the same for his fiance now.
Gary and I live in different parts of the state. Things are different. Who want's to work in 100 F+ to harvest? What is grown here in the valley, feeds a lot of people around the world.
I help people obtain ITINs, those are the good ones. Yes they know, they pay into Social Security and Medicare and don't see the benefit for those years until they finally get a work visa.
Let's get rid of the criminals.
I know easier said than done, but we should concentrate on them.

BTW, there is a fast track, for HR to verify the legality of an employee.
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Message 1267367 - Posted: 4 Aug 2012, 3:40:30 UTC - in response to Message 1267195.

All posters please note. This thread is purely to discuss the claims that illegal immigrants (to any country) get a fortune in Government benefits as soon as they land. It is NOT about discussing immigration policy in general.

So far we've had a lot of emotion but very little in the way of facts. It is starting to appear that the stories about excessive benefits are just that, stories. About the only benefit it appears they get is health care, which anyone can get by turning up at a public hospital but the cost of this is nowhere near the amount of benefits the emails that are circulating claim.

@Gary

Who pays for that free medical care? The government.

I'd already acknowledged that. But what else do they get?

They also can qualify for TANF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Assistance_for_Needy_Families#Funding_and_eligibility
States cannot use TANF funds to assist most legal (My emphasis) immigrants until they have been in the country for at least 5 years.

From reading that page and your quote illegals are not eligible for TANF so that point is invalid.

@Misfit
Here it's called "a free pass."

A free pass to what ? Can you please elucidate as to how this effects your tax bill?

Australia has a similar problem with refugees coming from the Middle East down through Indonesia and by boat to Australia. When they arrive they are put in detention centres (the polite name) while their bona fides are checked by the Security services. Once it is decided they are genuine refugees and they are given a visa then they get refugee benefits equivalent to the dole to help them re-settle. This is a different situation to the US because the illegals there are not claiming refugee status.

T.A.

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Message 1267378 - Posted: 4 Aug 2012, 4:07:55 UTC - in response to Message 1267362.
Last modified: 4 Aug 2012, 4:08:39 UTC

I don't post here often, but as an immegrant myself, I need to speak out.
I got a fast track visa 32 yrs ago. It seems, my ex brother in law can do the same for his fiance now.
Gary and I live in different parts of the state. Things are different. Who want's to work in 100 F+ to harvest? What is grown here in the valley, feeds a lot of people around the world.
I help people obtain ITINs, those are the good ones. Yes they know, they pay into Social Security and Medicare and don't see the benefit for those years until they finally get a work visa.
Let's get rid of the criminals.
I know easier said than done, but we should concentrate on them.

BTW, there is a fast track, for HR to verify the legality of an employee.

You have NOTHING to do with this, Uli.
Step down.

This is about ILLEGAL immigrants. Not those who have done their homework.

You are out of line, Hon.
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Message 1267382 - Posted: 4 Aug 2012, 4:16:59 UTC

Yes Mark, I am fully aware of the topic.
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Message 1267395 - Posted: 4 Aug 2012, 4:56:02 UTC - in response to Message 1267367.

TA, notwithstanding the noise regarding 'free pass' -- Illegals don't get that much. Yes, hospitals are compelled to treat them should they need urgent care.

Yes, school age children get public education. In a large number of cases, the school age children were carried across the border (makes them illegal), but in a large (perhaps larger number of cases) proportion, they were born in the US -- makes them legal US citizens.

Yes, illegals get the 'opportunity' to enlist in the military. There are those that would argue that an honorable discharge after military service ought to provide a rationale for a change of status. Some folks do not.

Oh yes, illegals can walk on sidewalks built by the government. They may be able to ride in cars on roads built by the government.

The curious thing for the folks making loud rude noises about the drain that illegals have on the country is that in many ways (even some 'anti-immigrant' folks might note), they also perform work that 'anglos' won't do, that needs to be done. The hispanic population in this country legal (mostly) and illegal also help push back the demographic time bomb of an aging society. Europe has an aging problem big time -- significantly less so in the US.

I've seen studies that suggest 'net-net' that immigrants (including illegal immigrants) have a *favorable* impact on the US economy. That sort of view is anathema to many though. The 'fear immigrants' mantra gets votes -- it is very effective. It especially works for the Republican Party which simply MUST get well over 55% of the white vote to gain and stay in power.

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Message 1267477 - Posted: 4 Aug 2012, 10:45:15 UTC

I think it needs to be pointed out that in the UK at least, where people claim asylum, it was originally supposed to be "Political asylum" that they are claiming. However these days the category has been widened to refugee status with various claims allowed.

Asylum is given under the 1951 United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees. To be recognised as a refugee, you must have left your country and be unable to go back because you have a well-founded fear of persecution because of your:

race;
religion;
nationality;
political opinion; or
membership of a particular social group.

UK asylum

However as we all know, most of them are simply economic migrants, who have decided that they will get a better quality of life in their chosen country than their own one. And if you come from Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Africa etc who can really blame them for trying with the general levels of repression going on.

Having applied for asylum, their claim needs to be checked out which can often take 1 or 2 years, then they can and do appeal etc etc and it all drags on. They are given letters from the Home Office confirming their status as an asylum seeker, and giving them permission to reside in the country. The letters also state that they must reside at the address supplied, and nowhere else, and that they are not allowed to undertake paid employment. I have seen a number of them.

Rights

They are entitled to free legal aid, NHS treatment, and also accommodation if they qualify for it. That is effectively paid for by the Government, funded by the tax payer. When their appeal is lost and they finally get the deportation order, most promptly disappear from the system, join the black economy, and become an illegal immigrant.

It should be obvious straight away whether someone is a genuine asylum seeker or not, but under the various human rights acts we have to go through the full process regardless. And if we chucked out all the illegals overnight, then there would be a severe manpower shortage in some of our service industries, and the government know that. There is no easy answer to any of it and never has been.

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Message 1267587 - Posted: 4 Aug 2012, 17:36:45 UTC - in response to Message 1267477.

Chris, I think the original topic creates something of a confusion by conflating illegals and asylum seekers.

Of course I suppose one could argue that recent arrivals from Mexico are asylum seekers as they are seeking to escape the drug civil war in Mexico -- a war which is happening in large part due to the actions and habits of their northern neighbor.

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