Another American Massacre


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BarryAZ
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Message 1262714 - Posted: 20 Jul 2012, 21:45:32 UTC - in response to Message 1262681.

Going -- yes, I was imprecise about 'school campus' thing -- in my day, campus -- meant college, not high school or elementary school. Thanks for the correction.

By the way, I *believe* (you'll correct me on this if I'm off base) but the AR-15 as a semi-automatic is not illegal to purchase/own. I believe it is illegal to purchase/own it as an automatic. My sense is that with decent skills (and this guys seems to have had them) it can be converted to an automatic.

My sense is that this guy was pretty effective at masking his plans (and seeming mental illness), so much of what he used could be purchased over time quite legally.

The politically cynical piece of me wonders what the reaction would be in some circles if one of these seemingly random mass killers was randomly black or hispanic. We've not seen that over the years.

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Message 1262731 - Posted: 20 Jul 2012, 22:41:29 UTC
Last modified: 20 Jul 2012, 22:45:15 UTC

I seem to be the only non-amercian in this thread so far. In my country, Ireland, nobody can carry a gun in the street. And nobody can have a gun in their home. There are a few small exceptions made to this rule for farmers and hunting groups, police and army. In Ireland its very very difficult to legally get a gun for any reason. Britain, France, Germany, Italy and many other European countries are the same or similar!

This does result in less gun crime in European countries. Its really simple, even normal, mentally stable people get angry and loose control from time to time. If you cannot get your hands on a gun when this happens, then you can't shoot anyone!

Fact - Everybody looses control from time to time. You don't have to be a nut to shoot someone, any normal person can just do it out of anger.

John.
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Message 1262737 - Posted: 20 Jul 2012, 23:03:37 UTC - in response to Message 1262731.

But Johnney -- you live in one of those socialist countries and we know they are all socialist because your health care system costs 1/8 of GDP instead of 1/5 -- and of course you went socialist because you didn't have semi-automatics in every home.

By the way, all the guns owned by this guy were purchased legally.

Frankly, I am waiting for a different reaction when one of these events is committed by a person of color -- then the 2nd Amendment will only apply to some citizens.

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Message 1262744 - Posted: 20 Jul 2012, 23:19:10 UTC - in response to Message 1262731.

If you cannot get your hands on a gun when this happens, then you can't shoot anyone!

BUT you can still be a serial killer.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2176500/Typed-signed-death-warrants-left-scene-homeless-stabbings-police-frantically-search-person-interest.html

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Message 1262745 - Posted: 20 Jul 2012, 23:32:00 UTC

Barry,
Ireland is NOT a socialist nation, we had to fight for independence from the United Kingdom. Ireland is a Democratic republic. And health care is a big issue in every first world nation. It has nothing to do with gun crime. As i said, Ireland the UK, France, Germany, Italy, etc, have less gun crime because it harder to get guns than it is in the United States.

Gary,
Yes, you can still kill people without guns. But its harder! Guns just make it easier and quicker to kill more people. Why make it easier? We could just allow everybody to carry atomic weapons and then they could really reap revenge when they need too. In a civil society, its always best to make it as hard as possible for people to kill each other.

John.
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Message 1262749 - Posted: 20 Jul 2012, 23:40:25 UTC - in response to Message 1262690.

I am very familiar with the law and nothing you said differs with what I said. Any fool can sit through a whole 8 hours of training and still be nuts.


This has to be one of the rarest threads on here ever, with the people who are agreeing with each other actually doing so.

Kudos to many who need not be named.

But let me expand a bit on Gary's and Skil's comments:

Replace "fool" in Skil's post with Gary's term ("fruitcake", though it'd sure be nice if he cleaned up, such as mentally ill).

A mentally ill inpatient can learn to mimic the words and behaviors set forth in the goals of the people working with them to move from inpatient to outpatient. Similarly, outpatient to receiving no care at all or at least only in the form of the meds.

On the one hand, then, someone who is mentally ill but shrewd could go through that 8 hour training mentioned.

It also says something about those working with the mentally ill. How do they get tricked into believing someone is ready to be released?

Maybe I need to re-read Gary's post, but, Gary, you do recall what happened to the mental health system in the early 80s, right? (Were you saying you'd be willing to pay the taxes to beef that system back up in place of the tax money going elsewhere?)

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Message 1262753 - Posted: 20 Jul 2012, 23:45:16 UTC
Last modified: 20 Jul 2012, 23:46:41 UTC

The crime stat is america 11000 gun deaths per year canada, uk, germany 250-280 per year each.

So obviously gun control is really an issue there.

I learnt this stat from Michael Moores docu Columbine Ball something.
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Message 1262758 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 0:13:25 UTC

This is a historical list of countries by firearm-related death-rate per 100,000 population in one year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Seems the United States is not the worst. South Africa is a civil war zone, they have, on average, 74 gun related deaths per 100,000 population. The US is ranked 12th with 10 gun related deaths per 100,000 population.

John.
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Profile Gary CharpentierProject donor
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Message 1262769 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 1:21:40 UTC - in response to Message 1262749.

Maybe I need to re-read Gary's post, but, Gary, you do recall what happened to the mental health system in the early 80s, right? (Were you saying you'd be willing to pay the taxes to beef that system back up in place of the tax money going elsewhere?)

I did say I think that system needs a larger chunk of the pie and we can cut others to do it. Of course as long as SCOTUS says the fruitcakes have the right to choose to refuse treatment there is nothing to spend it on. Fruitcake in public isn't a crime.

I remember before the 80's screwup when you didn't find fruitcake bums three to a block. You do now. Of course I do live where the weather is better, so they all come to my neck of the woods. And lest there be confusion the fruitcake bums are not the ones with a sign saying homeless please help. The fruitcakes are the ones yelling and cursing at an invisible person.

To the people in the other countries, the USA does not have a gun control problem. It has a fruitcake problem. In your countries they get help. You have social medicine for that. Here they wander the street untreated. The USA has a fruitcake problem. It may have another problem because fruitcake medical records are sealed, there is no way to prevent a fruitcake from legally purchasing a gun. This needs to change and I really doubt the NRA would be against that, but the AMA will be.

As to the term "mental illness", makes it so nice and tidy. Lumps almost normal people in with the Charles Manson copycats. I prefer the term fruitcake to prevent the dilution and clean feeling that goes with the PC vs. the cold hard facts.

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Message 1262801 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 2:56:56 UTC

Simple solution:
All public gathering places must have enough weapons to arm every individual as they enter.
If some looney jumps up and starts shooting, the rest can join in and enjoy a real John Wayne shoot out.
Afterward, the establishment can gather up the guns as the patrons leave, then go into the room to remove the bodies and hose the place down for the next event.
Idiotic second amendment rights as interpreted by the arms industry will be protected.
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Message 1262832 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 5:28:48 UTC - in response to Message 1262709.

And any place conspicuously displaying the legally defined placard saying no weapons allowed

which is pretty much every establishment that isn't part of the list.

The reality is you have to look pretty hard to find any place that actually doesn't have the placard. You make this seem like its the wild west when the reality its only in your vehicle. pretty much everywhere else its off limits.

Soo Wooohoooo you got a gun law that allows you to carry a weapon from your home and into your vehicle but virtually no other place(establishment) where you might actually conduct business or eat or play or get an education etc. nada
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BarryAZ
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Message 1262842 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 5:55:28 UTC - in response to Message 1262745.

Johnny -- yes I realize that -- my apologies -- if you've tracked my posts over time, you'd have known I was winding you up there. There are folks who see me as one of the socialists here and might well take the 'false flag' position I suggested.

Hey, at least I didn't suggest that Cromwell and Churchill were good for Ireland <just joking>.

BarryAZ
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Message 1262845 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 6:05:53 UTC - in response to Message 1262769.

Gary, in this particular tragedy, the suspect apparently never got to 'fruitcake' status. In some ways, from what has been described, this guy was closer to the case decades ago in the Texas University bell tower -- except this guy (who may have known -- as his college BS was in neuroscience) might prove to have a previously undiagnosed organic brain problem which caused his actions.

That being said, the argument for de-institutionalization in part had to do with new drugs coming online, in part had to do with significant institutional abuses coming to light, in part had to do with 'saving taxpayer money', in part had to do with a sense that people should be allowed a broader range of behavior defined as 'normal, and in part a VERY LARGE mistake.

By the way, one confusing thing today is that sometimes people shouting at nothing are on the phone for real...




I remember before the 80's screwup when you didn't find fruitcake bums three to a block. You do now. Of course I do live where the weather is better, so they all come to my neck of the woods. And lest there be confusion the fruitcake bums are not the ones with a sign saying homeless please help. The fruitcakes are the ones yelling and cursing at an invisible person.

To the people in the other countries, the USA does not have a gun control problem. It has a fruitcake problem. In your countries they get help. You have social medicine for that. Here they wander the street untreated. The USA has a fruitcake problem. It may have another problem because fruitcake medical records are sealed, there is no way to prevent a fruitcake from legally purchasing a gun. This needs to change and I really doubt the NRA would be against that, but the AMA will be.

As to the term "mental illness", makes it so nice and tidy. Lumps almost normal people in with the Charles Manson copycats. I prefer the term fruitcake to prevent the dilution and clean feeling that goes with the PC vs. the cold hard facts.

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Message 1262846 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 6:07:23 UTC - in response to Message 1262682.
Last modified: 21 Jul 2012, 7:02:27 UTC

In order to show I'm here for the genuine exchange of information in the hopes of enlightening us all I must thank you Ex, Gary and misfit for pointing to what the real issue is. Unfortunately, there will always be some one who smokes "bath salts" and does something absolutely insane.


What? No kudos for the "guy with no name and currently no afterlife"? I feel left out being that I was the first one to say that guns aren't the problem.

I "+1'd" you.... But I guess I don't count as you were probably looking for kudos from the right, which me and you will never get, no matter when we agree or not.


I'd find it difficult to go anywhere where you could actually carry a concealed weapon in Texas. No hospital, clinic, Mall, gov't office(local state and federal), most if not all restaurants, convenience stores, super markets, department stores, gas stations all have signs posted that concealed weapons are not allowed on the premises. Doing so will get you arrested. Seems you'd actually have to search for a place that you could wear a concealed weapon other than a shooting range, your residence, your vehicle, or your local militia barracks/End of the world cult compound.

This is interesting to me, as I live in a conceal/carry state, yet I've never seen any signs posted around here prohibiting conceal/carry. I have two close friends that are permit carrying, and there are actually very few places here you cannot carry one. Banks and government buildings are off limits and as far as I know that's it. (I'll add, I believe NYC has different laws and pretty much prohibits all conceal/carry activity in all boroughs.)

I guess liberals can be better trusted to safely carry?



Well, then, thank GOD. Because if you want to be consistent, then we'll have to outlaw hammers and drills also. Because hammers and drills are tools, which if used improperly, also cause identically the same kind of damage.

Guy, enjoy this, it's one of the few times I think we will ever be in 100% agreement.



By the way, I *believe* (you'll correct me on this if I'm off base) but the AR-15 as a semi-automatic is not illegal to purchase/own.

I believe you are correct Barry. If it's semi-auto, there are no assault-rifle restrictions. I think that's federal and accepted in all states? (An unfortunate side-effect of this is how simple it is to buy a few cheap parts and make a semi-auto a full-auto)


Fact - Everybody looses control from time to time. You don't have to be a nut to shoot someone, any normal person can just do it out of anger.

John.

John, you are correct. But I have to side with "Going Down" on this one. You can lose control and kill someone with any object, including but not limited to your bare hands... We cannot go cutting off everyone's hands just to make sure they never hit anyone.


The crime stat is america 11000 gun deaths per year canada, uk, germany 250-280 per year each.

So obviously gun control is really an issue there.


Origil, I'm SOOOOOO glad you brought this up..... CANADA OWNS FAR MORE GUNS PER CAPITA THAN THE U.S.!
^ EDIT: the US owns THREE times as many guns per person vs. Canada, yet has roughly forty times as much gun related crime vs. Canada. Which tells me PEOPLE are the problem, not the guns.

So, you are INCORRECT, gun control is NOT the issue. Mentally instable lunatics, and socio-economic issues/crime are the freaking problem.


This has to be one of the rarest threads on here ever, with the people who are agreeing with each other actually doing so.

Sarge, LOL, you noticed that too huh? It's like freaky Friday in here...
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Message 1262847 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 6:09:50 UTC - in response to Message 1262709.

Going -- quoted from your list -- the law the locals here tried to get enacted would have constrained this limitation -- no place could do this UNLESS they had a qualified secure storage and claim back location and system in place. Outside of the other exclusions (like large assembly places, sporting arenas and the like.



And any place conspicuously displaying the legally defined placard saying no weapons allowed



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Message 1262856 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 6:48:05 UTC

CANADA OWNS FAR MORE GUNS PER CAPITA THAN THE U.S.!

Where did this stat come from, according to Wiki - Number of guns per capita by country

1. USA - 88.8
2. Serbia - 58.2
.
.
.
13. Canada - 30.8


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Message 1262857 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 6:54:36 UTC - in response to Message 1262856.

CANADA OWNS FAR MORE GUNS PER CAPITA THAN THE U.S.!

Where did this stat come from, according to Wiki - Number of guns per capita by country

1. USA - 88.8
2. Serbia - 58.2
.
.
.
13. Canada - 30.8



Perhaps I stand corrected on that statement. I believe the stat I was drawing on was "per-capita gun violence", which you WILL see is a far bigger gap than the (roughly) 3:1 ratio of guns per person between the U.S. and Canada. The gun violence IIRC is FORTY times as much here, with only THREE times as many guns per-capita, alluding to the fact that gun control is not the problem.

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Message 1262860 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 7:20:05 UTC - in response to Message 1262857.

Dave, the stats suggest we must have far better drugs (illegal) going on in the US -- makes killing seem like a fun thing.

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Message 1262864 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 7:33:38 UTC

This thread is horrific. Lots of people just went out for a nice night out at the movies yesterday, and 12 are dead, and loads more have gun shot wounds. All because they wanted to see a film. And the majority in this thread seem to defend the possession of fire-arms in society.

I weep for American society. I pause for a moment in contemplation of the lost lives.

John.
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Message 1262866 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 8:12:37 UTC - in response to Message 1262860.
Last modified: 21 Jul 2012, 8:13:10 UTC

Dave, the stats suggest we must have far better drugs (illegal) going on in the US -- makes killing seem like a fun thing.

We do border Mexico, I'm sure that doesn't help. <smile> (counterpoint, a great deal of designer drugs <extacy for example> come here from Canada...)
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