Another American Massacre


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Message 1262867 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 8:20:24 UTC - in response to Message 1262864.
Last modified: 21 Jul 2012, 8:26:12 UTC

This thread is horrific. Lots of people just went out for a nice night out at the movies yesterday, and 12 are dead, and loads more have gun shot wounds. All because they wanted to see a film. And the majority in this thread seem to defend the possession of fire-arms in society.

I weep for American society. I pause for a moment in contemplation of the lost lives.

John.


John, every time something like this happens, it's a terrible thing.

No one here is overlooking the fact that what happened is horrific. My heart goes out to those families as it does every other person in this world who has lost a loved one today or died a horrible death.



The argument here has quickly come down to the basics. Was it GUNS or was it A MANIAC, that is to blame?

I've stated my position early on, and will stand by my position. I'll be as cliché as possible here: "Guns don't kill people, <violent, loose, lost, loopy, insane, criminal, crazy> people kill people..." And these same people, do NOT need guns to do it. Perhaps you are familiar with 9-11? OR the Oklahoma City Bombing? OR the FIRST trade center bombing? OR....... I could go on for days.... GUNS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE, MANIACS INTENT ON KILLING KILL PEOPLE.

Deal with the maniacs please.


And DO NOT take away my right to own. (I personally don't need/want a conceal/carry). If you take away my right to own, you are taking away my right to defend my life, family, and property.

Another cliché: "Outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have guns"


I've stated before that I do have some republican beliefs, and like most of my beliefs, these are NOT inherited beliefs but rather self-drawn conclusions. (example, RELIGIOUS family--> I'm Atheist. Republican Family, Anti-Gun--> I'm Liberal, yet PRO gun.)
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Message 1262871 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 8:42:18 UTC

I was sorry to read about this.

Message 1262872 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 8:43:38 UTC

Guy, enjoy this, it's one of the few times I think we will ever be in 100% agreement.


GuyMan care?

Deal with the maniacs please.


They are only known as Maniacs after The Fact.

I weep for American society.


Weep For Humanity.

AsTheFireCleansesTheEarthFourthAngel
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Message 1262923 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 13:28:12 UTC - in response to Message 1262846.

In order to show I'm here for the genuine exchange of information in the hopes of enlightening us all I must thank you Ex, Gary and misfit for pointing to what the real issue is. Unfortunately, there will always be some one who smokes "bath salts" and does something absolutely insane.


What? No kudos for the "guy with no name and currently no afterlife"? I feel left out being that I was the first one to say that guns aren't the problem.

I "+1'd" you.... But I guess I don't count as you were probably looking for kudos from the right, which me and you will never get, no matter when we agree or not.


No, I noticed it and appreciate the gesture. However, I wanted to point out to Guy (going DOWN?) that A) I noticed he thanked you when all you did was +1 me (at the time) and B) Guy has placed me firmly into the Liberal category mentally because I'm against the death penalty and a few other things, and because he has placed me in the Liberal category, some of his responses toward me have been (from my view) out of left field. Ultimately, I wanted to show Guy that he should stop being so quick to judge everyone that doesn't think as he does as being a "dirty no good liberal". Guy tends to stereotype those he's talking to quite heavily, even going so far as suggesting that I have tatoos (and possibly piercings) because he's noticed that I am proud of being different and not going "with the flow". Mind you, he made this accusation when it is A) irrelevant and B) without merit. I'm hoping that he might stop and think once in a while about another person's views without the need to classify them or disagree because it sounds too "liberal".

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Message 1262927 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 13:37:19 UTC - in response to Message 1262867.

And DO NOT take away my right to own. (I personally don't need/want a conceal/carry). If you take away my right to own, you are taking away my right to defend my life, family, and property.

Another cliché: "Outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have guns"


I've stated before that I do have some republican beliefs, and like most of my beliefs, these are NOT inherited beliefs but rather self-drawn conclusions. (example, RELIGIOUS family--> I'm Atheist. Republican Family, Anti-Gun--> I'm Liberal, yet PRO gun.)


Agreed. I have no interest in owning a gun (I do have a nice sword collection), but I think that a responsible person with a gun can handle owing it responsibly. I disagree with Johnney that everyone snaps. Sure, lots of people lose their temper, but most people do not have an urge to grab their gun and start shooting everyone they see just because they're pissed off. Only people who are emotionally unbalanced to begin with would even begin to contemplate such a horrible thing. Most of us have friends that we can discuss our thoughts with that will help us realize when we're not thinking straight.

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Message 1262935 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 14:17:55 UTC - in response to Message 1262927.
Last modified: 21 Jul 2012, 14:20:12 UTC

I am ambivalent on the subject. It would be wonderful if no one in the world owned a gun or ever needed to, including the Military. I don't have a gun. Just an air rile for some target practice--I fired expert with the M-1, Carbine, .45 and the 50 cal machine gun when I did my 2 years in the Army. I have seen what a military weapon can do and it is very frightening.

Conversely, my right- to-defend side of my brain sometimes thinks that I should be able to protect myself , family and property from looters and rioters with deadly force.

The original intent of our Founding Fathers , I believe, was the right to protect oneself from the Government oppression (most notably the British taxation at the time) and included the right to form local militias to throw off the oppressors (which is exactly what they were doing at the time of the American Revolution). Now my thoughts go to what would I do when they come to arrest my wife for not buying health care or confiscate our property to pay the fine for not having healthcare. I presume I will never have to answer this question or wipe-out a carjacker that is pointing a weapon at me at a stop light.

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Message 1262937 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 14:21:30 UTC - in response to Message 1262867.

GUNS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE, MANIACS INTENT ON KILLING KILL PEOPLE.


Probably true, but in the American case, the fact that it is easy to obtain a gun, means that there are more American maniacs killing people than is possible in most other countries because guns are not so easily available.

And although most Americans think they should be able to own firearms to defend themselves, I just cannot see why anyone should need an Assault Rifle. They in my opinion should be banned, full stop, no argument allowed.

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Message 1262941 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 14:37:23 UTC - in response to Message 1262867.

Dave, one thing which might enter into consideration -- do we have more 'maniacs' per capita than other countries. After all, if guns don't kill people and people kill people, then total gun deaths per capita would be rather similar from country to country. I think the argument might be better framed as 'guns don't kill people' to people with access to guns kill people.

Once you frame the argument that way it might be possible to consider some forms of control (say dealing with semi-automatics and auto-loaders and the like).

There are those who state that 'the bad (other) guys have the semi-automatics and auto-loaders so we must'. Taken to an international level, just why is there resistance to Iran getting nukes? After all, Russia has nukes, Pakistan has nukes, India has nukes, Israel has nukes.

American exceptionalism on guns in my view should be examined. It won't be, I'm sure, but there it is.

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Message 1262944 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 14:51:38 UTC - in response to Message 1262857.

Perhaps I stand corrected on that statement

Nope, you were right, up here in the land of the free and the home of the cold there are way more guns per person. We just tend to have long guns, that are legal, and we are not in to hand guns. That is not to say that Canadians don’t go off the deep end from time to time, it’s just that when it happens we just put on our eight layers of clothing, and waddle down to the legion and drown our sorrows in jugs of real beer.

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Message 1262951 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 15:11:27 UTC

There is something school university connection here.

That korean guy a student who killed maybe 30 people just few years ago in Virginia then another chicago university student killed 6 people next year and now this "friutcake" is another student. Even in closer location some highschool 2 students did similar mass shooting.

What I heard from others blog is in NY many highschools have metal detector.

Well it is a school connection triggering this mass shooting incidents.
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Message 1262958 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 15:17:51 UTC
Last modified: 21 Jul 2012, 15:20:45 UTC

I posted in the beginning of this thread.

Perhaps a little too early. It did not solve the problem.

Anyway, I feel sorry for the victims. The role of the police and the attorneys has always been to first protect the victims. In order to do so, they are supposed to prosecute criminals and choose the sentence best suitable for the offender for the crime which he or she may have committed.

Remember back in the good old days when the United States was associated with the "Wild West" (Gunsmoke and so on).

Poverty was one reason for this period. Also the country was being developed and there were many adventurous people around. In any case, people were killed and at times slaughtered for either a reason or none such reason whatsoever.

Do you call it a war, or is it justice? Kill the killer because it either is the law or otherwise suits the rest of us better.

If a society is a lawless one, either because people are "permitted" to shoot another either in self-defence or perhaps in kind of "self-wish", do you make the same society more obedient to the laws if you kill the killer in return?

Similarly, if a society is an orderly one - do you permit all kinds of crime without the criminal being prosecuted in some kind of way? Is the only ultimate punishment for commiting a serious crime (like murder) the death penalty?

Things have never changed. If I hit you, you hit me. So it goes.

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Message 1262972 - Posted: 21 Jul 2012, 16:10:47 UTC - in response to Message 1262941.

Dave, one thing which might enter into consideration -- do we have more 'maniacs' per capita than other countries. After all, if guns don't kill people and people kill people, then total gun deaths per capita would be rather similar from country to country.

Ah, but only it the number of "maniacs" on the street is the same. Here in the USA there isn't social medicine, so if the "maniac" isn't able to lead a productive enough life to buy medical care the "maniac" is untreated. Also unlike many socialist countries, the "maniac" in the USA can choose to refuse treatment. So if you are to make the comparison you must account for these factors or you are comparing apples to oranges.

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Message 1263323 - Posted: 22 Jul 2012, 12:47:50 UTC

Manufacturer produces a gun, I buy it & shoot someone.

Manufacturer produces a power drill, I tie someone down & drill a hole into their brain.

Are the manufacturers guilty? No!

Is the gun guilty? no!

Is the drill guilty? no!

Who's the dangerous weapon in this post?
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Message 1263345 - Posted: 22 Jul 2012, 14:26:57 UTC - in response to Message 1263323.

Manufacturer produces a gun, I buy it & shoot someone.

Manufacturer produces a power drill, I tie someone down & drill a hole into their brain.

Are the manufacturers guilty? No!

Is the gun guilty? no!

Is the drill guilty? no!

Who's the dangerous weapon in this post?

whens the last time you read an article that described how a young adult killed someone with a power drill let alone walked into a theater and mowed down patrons with a power drill and weed whacker.

Clearly power tools can do harm but are not designed to do so. Power tools have a primary function that isn't called Murder. Name something a gun(weapon) is supposed to do that isn't firing bullets at a living thing or at a target in practice for shooting at a living thing
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Message 1263359 - Posted: 22 Jul 2012, 15:22:24 UTC - in response to Message 1263345.

Manufacturer produces a gun, I buy it & shoot someone.

Manufacturer produces a power drill, I tie someone down & drill a hole into their brain.

Are the manufacturers guilty? No!

Is the gun guilty? no!

Is the drill guilty? no!

Who's the dangerous weapon in this post?

whens the last time you read an article that described how a young adult killed someone with a power drill let alone walked into a theater and mowed down patrons with a power drill and weed whacker.

Clearly power tools can do harm but are not designed to do so. Power tools have a primary function that isn't called Murder. Name something a gun(weapon) is supposed to do that isn't firing bullets at a living thing or at a target in practice for shooting at a living thing


1: You totally missed the pont

2: You're being totally facetious!

Answer the question who's the dangerous weapon in my post?
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Message 1263364 - Posted: 22 Jul 2012, 15:32:57 UTC - in response to Message 1263345.

Name something a gun is supposed to do that isn't firing bullets at a living thing or at a target in practice for shooting at a living thing

http://www.pacoa.com/products/hand-tools-accessories/ramset-ts22-trigger-shot-22-cal-tool.html


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Message 1263368 - Posted: 22 Jul 2012, 15:41:00 UTC - in response to Message 1263364.

Nice reply Gary. Is the nail gun guilty of punching holes in one's skull?

Is the manufacturer of that nail gun guilty?
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Message 1263375 - Posted: 22 Jul 2012, 16:10:34 UTC - in response to Message 1263368.

Nice reply Gary.

All my cop friends say Guns don't kill, people kill. None of them has ever heard of a gun sitting on a shelf, get up point at someone and pull its own trigger. However every single one of them has heard of a person killing. It is people control we need, not gun control.

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Message 1263387 - Posted: 22 Jul 2012, 16:49:07 UTC - in response to Message 1263375.

Exactly! so the debates "for/against guns" is just a total waste of time!
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Message 1263403 - Posted: 22 Jul 2012, 17:17:56 UTC - in response to Message 1262599.

Its time for the Americans to reform their gun laws. If you allow everybody in civilian society to carry guns, then you will have war in the civilian community.


Crazy people will do crazy things. If it wasn't a gun, it would be other ways to get the job done.

The answer isn't more laws or gun control, the answer is trying to identify these people before the fly off the handle and get them the help they need.

+1.


Most states with conceal and carry laws are very very strict. I live in one of the bluest states in this country, and conceal and carry is allowed with a permit.

Go after the offender, not guns.


+2 And leave us Hunters alone.!
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