What is "God" and what can "It" "Do"?


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Message 1259565 - Posted: 12 Jul 2012, 19:21:55 UTC - in response to Message 1259382.
Last modified: 12 Jul 2012, 19:27:05 UTC

OMG........?!?

Mr. Intelligent Design,
Robert, if you really are a proponent of "Intelligent Design theory", an intelligent creator, i would like to get your opinion on what i have said in this thread? Its important to me! Please take your time reading what i have said in these messages. There is a lot of information in what i have said. I can also answer any questions you have. I am also aware that you yourself might have different ideas of what happened in ancient human history. But thats ok, we are both on the same side.

John.
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Message 1259621 - Posted: 12 Jul 2012, 22:55:53 UTC - in response to Message 1259565.

OMG........?!?

Mr. Intelligent Design,
Robert, if you really are a proponent of "Intelligent Design theory", ... But thats ok, we are both on the same side.

John.


John,

Allow me to reread and think that over. I'll try to get back to it ASAP.

Robert

P.S.
No need for Mr.---that's for my dad, he's old enough and earned it. I.D. is fine and so is Robert. Thank you.

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Message 1259634 - Posted: 13 Jul 2012, 0:07:08 UTC - in response to Message 1259621.

Allow me to reread and think that over. I'll try to get back to it ASAP.

Robert.

Ok,

John.

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Message 1259935 - Posted: 13 Jul 2012, 18:50:37 UTC - in response to Message 1259324.

snip
The bible is a description of what happens when scientists go off to new planets and start creating planets and animals, and then other intelligent beings in their own image. And we too will give our future "created" children a book, which we might call it the bible, to let them know their origins.
John.


& that confirms that there is a god? Using your example, what's to say that "someone else" hasn't already done this with the earth?


Reminds me of a story I read in Science-fiction magazine many years ago. The gist of it was that this alien federation was going to destroy us unless we could show just cause. At the end Earth scientist showed that we were genetically related to them. Seems that some where in the past on a lifeless Earth, One of there ships flushed a toilet.

Farfetched sure. But how many microbes have we shipped off to other planets and moons in our own backyard.

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Message 1259988 - Posted: 13 Jul 2012, 20:53:17 UTC - in response to Message 1259935.

Farfetched sure. But how many microbes have we shipped off to other planets and moons in our own backyard.

We haven't sent many since Probe construction is generally done under very sterile conditions. Not just to prevent contamination of other worlds but to prevent damage to the vehicles as they are traveling through space.
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Message 1259998 - Posted: 13 Jul 2012, 21:13:14 UTC - in response to Message 1259988.

Farfetched sure. But how many microbes have we shipped off to other planets and moons in our own backyard.

We haven't sent many since Probe construction is generally done under very sterile conditions. Not just to prevent contamination of other worlds but to prevent damage to the vehicles as they are traveling through space.

Generally. Such a nice weasel word. Only the US spacecraft headed to Mars were alleged to be sterilized, the rest, not at all. A clean room is not sterile. And I've been in a spacecraft assembly facility.


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Message 1260045 - Posted: 13 Jul 2012, 23:27:07 UTC

And in any manned mission we will be sending a host of microbes to where ever we go.
Heres a thought. Maybe that disc thats rides on the voyagers will be some aliens bible. And that skecth of our solar system will be where GOD lives to them.
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Message 1260063 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 0:02:19 UTC - in response to Message 1260045.

Now that is an interesting premise....
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Message 1260135 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 4:45:26 UTC

John,

Im the kinda person that like to keep thing simple at first and then move on to more bigger things along the way. So, in that spirit...

You said..."The created becomes the creator." This is true in my eye--in part. We create art and we are the only ones who do so on this rock.

But, who created the first ones? In other words we cannot have an endless line of movers. At some point we come across an Unmoved mover.

I have no idea if God is a flesh and blood human being. If so then we have the Mover question once again.

Food for thought...Who made who?

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Message 1260235 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 11:11:52 UTC

Q1. Food for thought...Who made who?
A1. When God made man she was just having a bad hair day.

Q2. Now that is an interesting premise....
A2. So is the Pioneer plaque ....


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Message 1260301 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 14:41:02 UTC - in response to Message 1260135.
Last modified: 14 Jul 2012, 14:47:25 UTC

John,

Im the kinda person that like to keep thing simple at first and then move on to more bigger things along the way. So, in that spirit...

You said..."The created becomes the creator." This is true in my eye--in part. We create art and we are the only ones who do so on this rock.

But, who created the first ones? In other words we cannot have an endless line of movers. At some point we come across an Unmoved mover.

I have no idea if God is a flesh and blood human being. If so then we have the Mover question once again.

Food for thought...Who made who?


Robert,
You ask; "If they created us, and we will go on to create others, then who created the first ones". In other words, going back the line of "creators", who created them, then who created the ones before them, and so on back the way in time?

My answer; I honestly don't know, nor do i care! Maybe if we went back an infinite number of generations of "creators", maybe some evolutionary process did actually start the whole thing in the first place. But thats a speculative guess on my part.

Either way, its NOT a reason to reject what i have said. I have 99% of the full story, but just because i'm missing 1% is not a reason to reject a perfectly plausible theory. So no, i don't know who created the creator, or the creator before him, or the creator before him again. When we find our creators, maybe we can ask them!

I'm only concerned with what happened on this planet Earth between 10,000 BC and 4,004 BC. The bible says that there was a load of blokes here "creating" plants and animals and human beings. Us human beings discovered DNA back in the 1950's and today we are genetically modifying the plants and animals all around us. So we have just discovered that genetic engineering is possible. Today we are Intelligently Designing plants and animals!

To top that off, not only is this a theory, i have scientific evidence. 100% verifiable, touchable, provable, concrete scientific evidence that backs up my story. And currently i'm the only one that knows about the evidence. The evidence is in the form of a book they left behind many thousands of years ago. And i am currently working to decode and translate that book. (And the book is not the bible)

John.
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Message 1260342 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 15:56:56 UTC - in response to Message 1260235.


Q2. Now that is an interesting premise....
A2. So is the Pioneer plaque ....Oh, A Catholic Bible & a Protestant Bible, what are trying to do, confuse the poor aliens?

Maybe that disc thats rides on the voyagers will be some aliens bible



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Message 1260343 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 16:05:20 UTC - in response to Message 1260301.
Last modified: 14 Jul 2012, 16:10:48 UTC

John,

Im the kinda person that like to keep thing simple at first and then move on to more bigger things along the way. So, in that spirit...

You said..."The created becomes the creator." This is true in my eye--in part. We create art and we are the only ones who do so on this rock.

But, who created the first ones? In other words we cannot have an endless line of movers. At some point we come across an Unmoved mover.

I have no idea if God is a flesh and blood human being. If so then we have the Mover question once again.

Food for thought...Who made who?


Robert,
You ask; "If they created us, and we will go on to create others, then who created the first ones". In other words, going back the line of "creators", who created them, then who created the ones before them, and so on back the way in time?

My answer; I honestly don't know, nor do i care! Maybe if we went back an infinite number of generations of "creators", maybe some evolutionary process did actually start the whole thing in the first place. But thats a speculative guess on my part.


I don't know either. But, I do care very much so as to the answer. God is not some part of an evolutionary process.

Please look up Unmoved Mover.

"John" wrote:
Either way, its NOT a reason to reject what i have said. I have 99% of the full story, but just because i'm missing 1% is not a reason to reject a perfectly plausible theory. So no, i don't know who created the creator, or the creator before him, or the creator before him again. When we find our creators, maybe we can ask them!


I don't reject your theory John. As a matter of fact you are the only one who has bothered to add one. All others add nothing to the conversation but mouth.

"John" wrote:
I'm only concerned with what happened on this planet Earth between 10,000 BC and 4,004 BC. The bible says that there was a load of blokes here "creating" plants and animals and human beings. Us human beings discovered DNA back in the 1950's and today we are genetically modifying the plants and animals all around us. So we have just discovered that genetic engineering is possible. Today we are Intelligently Designing plants and animals!


Ummm, John could you point out in the Bible for me "A load of Blokes."?

God done the first Designing...right here. Yes, it's C.G. but it is what happens.

Before 10,000 years ago man as we have become, felt a need for meat, in doing so our brains trippled in size. We are Designed too. And God is that Designer. God is an Unmoved Mover.

Some 10,000 years ago man started to become farmers. We stopped being full time hunters and gathers and tilled the ground with grasses we found to be tastey. That is how we modified grains, overtime. Indeed, we are Intelligently Designing plants and animals.

"John" wrote:
To top that off, not only is this a theory, i have scientific evidence. 100% verifiable, touchable, provable, concrete scientific evidence that backs up my story. And currently i'm the only one that knows about the evidence. The evidence is in the form of a book they left behind many thousands of years ago. And i am currently working to decode and translate that book. (And the book is not the bible)

John.


Care to share that with me? Not in public if you don't like. I-Mail me here.

I thank you for your time John. Very nice of you to take the time to tell me what you think. Most don't.


Thank you,
Robert

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Message 1260416 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 20:31:19 UTC
Last modified: 14 Jul 2012, 20:49:42 UTC

Robert,
??? You have lost me? I googled "Unmoved Mover" and its some philosophical theorem by the Greeks. Robert this is not philosophy! THIS IS REAL! Robert this is real life! Its not some theory i dreamt up just to pass the time. And the bible is not a philosophical invention written by clever ancient intellectuals. ITS REAL ROBERT! It really happened! Its real history! Some parts of it have been lost in translation, but much of the history is still intact in the bible.

Ummm, John could you point out in the Bible for me "A load of Blokes."?

Yea, sure! But you got to go and get the names yourself because i'm a scientist, not a biblical or religious scholar Robert;

God in Buddhism; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism
God in Christianity; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Christianity
God in Hinduism; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Hinduism
God in Islam; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Islam
God in Jainism; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Jainism
God in Judaism; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism
God in Sikhism; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Sikhism

List of deities; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities

Now that is a list of plenty of blokes that were all doing Godly things. Robert i hope your not arrogant enough to think that your God, the Christian God, is the only God from pre-history. I hope your not so arrogant to think all the people of other religions are wrong about their Gods they pray too, and follow.

God done the first Designing...right here. Yes, it's C.G. but it is what happens.

Before 10,000 years ago man as we have become, felt a need for meat, in doing so our brains tripled in size. We are Designed too. And God is that Designer. God is an Unmoved Mover.

Some 10,000 years ago man started to become farmers. We stopped being full time hunters and gathers and tilled the ground with grasses we found to be tastey. That is how we modified grains, overtime. Indeed, we are Intelligently Designing plants and animals.


What kind of proponent of Intelligent Design are you Robert? Whats going on in your head my friend? Do you believe the book or not? The bible, do you believe it?

Robert where in the bible did you read that man settled down from hunting and gathering to start farming the land? Where in the bible did you read that our brain size tripled because we started eating meat???

Robert when i saw you using the words "Intelligent Design" as your user name, i was under the assumption that you had some understanding of the Christian bible. I assumed that, to some degree, you were a proponent of creationism; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism

Robert it seems that the Darwinists have gotten to you. Possibly because even the TV stations like the Discovery channel and the science channel constantly show TV programs that keep in line with the Darwinist view that we human beings evolved. I understand Robert, i understand the fight that can go on in the head of a rational thinking person. Right now today, its very very difficult to rationalise what the bible says compared to what the science books say. Its easier to believe the science books, i understand.

Robert your ancestors were "created" by genetic engineers about 6,000 years ago. You never evolved, your brain size never got larger, and your ancestors were never hunter gathers. Robert read the book of Genesis and ask God to help you to understand. God will help you if you ask him.

Robert, just keep the faith. Whatever that faith means to you my friend. Keep your faith.

John.
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Message 1260451 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 23:14:11 UTC
Last modified: 14 Jul 2012, 23:19:52 UTC

Dear John,

I have Faith. It's in God. One God, Three Parts. I have real faith in this. I have great Faith that God Created sunflowers that track the sun across the sky everyday. This is Intelligent Design in a nutshell. Why did God Create the sunflower to track the sun across the sky? Was Dawinism the reason the sunflower tracks the sun? No, it is not. The sunflower is but part of Darwinism, and part Creation.

Some parts of Darwinism are true. But just in short term reasoning. The strong make it and the weak don't in the wild. Man stands outside of Darwinism, yet he don't. The Designer comes back to His Creation from time to time. This is what the Bible teaches us. And from time to time with the Designers Hand He changes His Design as He sees fit to do. I cannot and will not deny what I see with my own eyes. I am the Monkeys Uncle so to speak, the chimp is closer to the truth. With only 4% differance between us in terms of DNA we are still missing the link. In fact, there might not be a direct link?

I disturbs me to see you use the word "bible" and not Bible. Even I who does not believe in the ways of Islam would not out of respect use a small k in talking about their Holy Book. I do believe that GOD has many followers and that not all of them are Christian. I cannot tell another that I have the only way to the Designer when Im not real sure of my own Salvation. To do so would be a lie and a sin before the Creator. Im not that arrogant, no.

I have read many times now the Book of Genesis. You no doubt think the Ark of the Covenant as a way to talk to the creator--s. I assure you this is not true.

I'll make what I think real plain to you so you don't misunderstand what Im talking about or Aristotle/Saint Thomas Aquinas whom I follow after in a fashion. There is an Unmoved Mover, Who started the ball rolling. He made movers who in turn move things. When you meet one you follow the movers back in time till you find the Unmoved Mover. That is Aristotle in a nutshell. Then we come to Saint Thomas Aquinas, who replaced the Unmoved Mover with God, a God, just one God, who started the ball rolling. And by our Belief in the Bible has come back many times now and passed on His Word and in doing so each and evertime we get a better understanding of Who and What He is. He stands outside of our linear timeline. He is the Creator of the fabric of spacetime. And from time to time has come back and changed His Creation by His Hand, and by Imparting His Word and Direction. In my belief he BECAME man in order to SAVE man from himself. Therefore he GAVE of HIMSELF for us in the FORM of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

If what you say is true, that your a scientist and you lack Theology I understand. Im more Theologian then scientist. BUT, I know both very well. Most Faiths believe in ONE God, or ONE God in charge and many lesser gods. I don't believe that lumping them all together and attempting to find a common thread other then love will you find. Ive looked.

If what you believe is to be called real then one MUST track the movers like the sunflower does the sun across the sky. And in the end you will find ONE Unmoved Mover who Created everything we see and don't see, imagined and unimagined. Logic and math itself dictates ONE event called Creation. Logic and math can trace that event so far back 13.7 billion years. Logic and math tells us that event was not by cause of MANY movers, but one Unmoved Mover whom most of us call God the Master Designer.

Lets say what you say is true. That back in time we where created by other beings. Who scattered their DNA all over this world. Why stop with just one world. Why create just one planet for just one race. Once again logic would tells us to make many planets and make many peoples, after all why put all of your eggs on one basket? As a fellow of yours once said to a group of your fellow scientist, "Where are all the other intelligent life forms?" That man who himself was a GREAT scientist, his name was Fermi, and he gave us a paradox to ponder. I ask you to do the same...

You have a RIGHT to believe as you wish and I would not take that from you even if I could. But my friend--I do not believe. Give me more to work with.

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Message 1260460 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 23:29:39 UTC
Last modified: 14 Jul 2012, 23:34:16 UTC

So maybe it is now the time asking the following question:

We are trying to define God. Are we successful in doing this?

On the Kardashev scale, you may be able to find a definition for possible Type 3 civilizations.

We definitely know about ourselves, we are a Type 0 civilization (in fact, 0.84, right now).

Anything in between, either a Type 1 or Type 2 civilization, you might assume Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers for Type 1 and Star Trek for a Type 2 civilization.

But with relation to this thread, where we are supposed to be discussing the definition of the possible existence of God, when it comes to Type 3 civilizations (and above, possibly as high as Type 7), there is possible to assume that some civilizations, 0 through 2 are technical if they should be existing at all.

If the level is even higher, it rather becomes dealing about the subject of religion as well as belief and possible deities.

In the same way as politics and religion are not the same thing, the subject of technical civilizations are not the same as politics and religion either, even though these elements are still relating to each other, of course.

Does God ever bother about politics, or technical stuff, for that matter?

If God ever wanted to make us a visit, would he perhaps arrive by means of a UFO or another similar craft? Possibly not, he or she probably could make his or her presence known without such a way of arriving.

We are still walking around on earth. Still we think that such possibilities may exist because of the vastness of space which is around us and not visible to us most of the time.

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Message 1260488 - Posted: 15 Jul 2012, 1:16:00 UTC - in response to Message 1260451.
Last modified: 15 Jul 2012, 1:18:28 UTC

Robert,
Thank you for taking the time to explain the way you think. I appreciate that!

It would appear that we are indeed both on the same side here. But we are following very different paths. A lot of the things you say are very abstract Robert. I'm not familiar with Aristotle or Saint Thomas Aquinas. Nor am i familiar with any of their writings. Nor do i want to have abstract discussions about how the universe might or might not have come into being.

I'm only concerned with one single event in human history. How intelligent modern human beings got here. And we didn't evolve in any way shape or form from a monkey. I'm more like a police man investigating a crime scene. I don't care what happened at the crime scene a billion years ago. But i do care about what happened in 4,004 BC.

Robert i'm sorry i dragged you into this. Just forget i asked you about this stuff.

John.
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Message 1260537 - Posted: 15 Jul 2012, 3:46:09 UTC

John,

You didn't drag me into anything. Look, guido.man asked some tough questions here and we really just have glazed over them. In you thoughts how does an omnipotent Being fit into this? And that question can, and does fit into what Music Man has just added. The Type of civilization it would take to create what we see now on this earth. The type of civilization it would take to create a universe.

Im a Christian man. guido.man takes issue with that, and God. guido.man might, just might buy into what you have to say. I cannot buy into what guido.man believes. Im one step away from you both. I believe in a [one] omnipotent Being most of us call God.

I alot of people we call agnostic theist, like my master Dr. Einstein believe in a omnipotent Being that made the universe, so did Fermi. I believe that He can be known in his Creation. But know that if we where created by intelligent beings that they in turn had to be created by intelligent beings and in the end we run into a Uncreated Omnipotent Being that Created the universe. We can do this the other way around, we have an apple, we cut it in half, and half and then we come to one atom. We split it into its parts and we can split it no further. Who made the parts of the atom? My answer is ONE Omnipotent Being, who Designed everything.

Such a Being as an Omnipotent God that Created the fabric of spacetime knew the outcome of His Creation. guido.man is not the fist one to have a problem with Pain. Why would a Omnipotent Being Create Pain? Or in other words, as you believe, why would many beings who created us make us go through pain?Im going to answer his question but Id like to have your answer as to why.

Would you like to tackle this one?

quote="guido.man"]In my old age i now see "God" as a "Myth" perpetrated by slick con men, and
deluded evangelists, who use the "Concept of God" as a stick to beat the rest
of humanity to their own imperfect view of what "Humanity is Good For".
[/quote]

How do you tell someone like this that made in His Image can also mean made in His love, love as the image we are made in?.? How do you tell someone like this who has no Conceptual image of love? And how to I fathom someone who is so stuck in math that love is only a chemical reaction?

You didn't drag me into anything. This is how and where I started at this site, with the Designer.

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Message 1260589 - Posted: 15 Jul 2012, 9:01:10 UTC

Johnney,

But i do care about what happened in 4,004 BC.

You seem fascinated by the figure of 4004BC. That is just a number printed on the top of Page 1 of Genesis, in The King James Bible. I have no idea whether that is meant to represent 4004 years of 12 months each as we know them today, or 4004 somethings else. "A year in my life is not as a year in yours".

When we are surrounded by archaeological evidence of Stone Age settlements up to 4 million BC and fossils of 65 million year old dinosaurs it is difficult to reconcile that with the biblical assertion that the universe was created in 4004BC. Although I will grant you that around 4000BC, the Stone age was transitioning into the Bronze age. Whether there was an outside catalyst to trigger that is a matter for possible conjecture.

Maybe "something" did happen in 4004BC but it wasn't the physical creation of the earth. May have been the beginning of a new world order, and new a direction for man being able to use metal tools and weapons.


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Message 1260614 - Posted: 15 Jul 2012, 11:38:13 UTC
Last modified: 15 Jul 2012, 11:42:09 UTC

Chris, and Robert too,
Part of the problem here is the Dinosaurs! Today we have lots of Dinosaur bones and they are a lot older than 10,000 BC.

My answer; They, the Elohim, in other words God, did not create the Dinosaurs in this particular creation epoch. The Bible, especially the Book of Genesis, deals with the plants, animals and human beings that they created in this current epoch, the period from 10,000 BC to 4,004 BC. So the Dinosaurs were created by some other intelligent "God like" civilisation who visited this planet millions of years ago. It probably was the Elohim that created the dinosaurs on a previous trip around the Milkyway. Maybe it takes them several million years to do a full trip around the Milkyway, creating new life and new civilisations as they travel along. So the Dinosaurs are from a previous creation event way back in history. The Dinosaurs are not in the Bible because they did not create them. At least, not this time anyway!

And Chris, i'm not obsessed with 4,004 BC. Its just quicker to write that date than to say "some time roughly around 5,000 BC and 2,500 BC". Some biblical scholars name 4,004 BC as the date of the "creation" of human beings. I don't care what date it happened, but i was roughly around then!

John.
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