Results from the LHC soon?

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Message 1258604 - Posted: 10 Jul 2012, 23:17:52 UTC
Last modified: 10 Jul 2012, 23:18:32 UTC

One for a few pints of Guinness!

Is the Higgs boson an imposter?

A group of Argonne National Laboratory researchers has suggested that last week’s CERN data, fanfared to the world as the discovery of the elusive Higgs-Boson, might actually point to even more exotic creatures. ...


All quite possible, but all not as likely as the good assumptions made so far. However, as is often the case in Science, it is all a question of how certain you want to be...


Keep searchin',
Martin
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Message 1258625 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 0:23:26 UTC - in response to Message 1258604.  
Last modified: 11 Jul 2012, 0:37:53 UTC

One for a few pints of Guinness!

Is the Higgs boson an imposter?

Martin

Martin,
Remember the things i have said in this thread. This debate is NOT over by a long shot! The "Higgs like" particle announced by CERN has NOT solved the problem!! Remember that! Remember i told you that!

This is what to look out for in the "physics type news" in the coming months and years.
Watch closely for news articles that discuss the so called "Higgs field"; http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_field

You see the particle that CERN just announced means nothing, they are no closer to solving the problem! The problem exists in their explanation of how that Higgs Boson interacts with the so called "Higgs field" to give all particles "Mass". The physicists will drag you down the garden path with tall tales and stories of extra dimensions and super symmetric particles, none of which exist. When you hear this, you know its Bullsh*t. Its intellectuals using complex long words to make themselves feel good when really they haven't a clue what the real problem is.

Truth is, they are trying to explain Gravity and they can't! Why, because they still have not found the error. But like i said, i found the error.

Now isn't that just a crying shame! The academic scientific community have build themselves a media machine, and a system of recording science, that excludes people like me. I'm outside the system they built, so even if i do have the solution, i cannot contribute the solution into the system. It means i will never get credit for the work i put into solving the problem.

Well we will see who will have the last laugh here! I still have the upper hand here, i still have the solution, and they don't. This puts me in a very powerful position. I wonder what mischief i could get up to with the knowledge i have.

John.
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Message 1258661 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 2:05:35 UTC

The motto of the Accademia del Cimento, founded in Florence at the time of Galileo, was "Provando and riprovandO", which does not mean "Trying and retrying" but "Proofing (truth) and disproofing (error)". No scientist believes he has reached an absolute truth but every scientific result must be checked and rechecked. This process is going on also on the results announced at CERN, and they are still being checked and rechecked even on my PC where the Test4Theory@home is doing just that. This is science, the rest is rubbish.
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Message 1258849 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 10:43:09 UTC
Last modified: 11 Jul 2012, 10:46:15 UTC

Correct, the LHC is not a waste of time. Its a very valuable experiment. And its not just the search for the Higgs Boson, there are multiple chambers along the 27km route of the tunnel. Each chamber has a different type of "camera" to watch different types of collisions.

Here is a simple way to see the flaw in the way they describe the Higgs Boson and the Higgs field;

Supposedly the Higgs Boson gives "mass" to all sub-atomic particles. Well what about the simplest particle, the electron? You, me, your computer in front of you, your house, everything around you is surrounded by electrons. Electrons are what you interact with in the world. The electrons have Mass! So where is the Higgs Boson inside an electron that has been separated from the nucleus of an atom? This where the Higgs theory fails!! An electron has Mass too, where is its Higgs Boson? I'm sure any physicist would use his "get out of jail free card" and tell you the electron's mass is too small to notice the Higgs particle inside it. That will make the physicist feel better about himself that he has out-smarted you, even though he doesn't know the answer himself.

Simple fact is this. The electron does not have a Higgs Boson! The theory surrounding the Higgs Boson and its interaction with the Higgs field is simply wrong.

John.
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Message 1258891 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 12:31:52 UTC
Last modified: 11 Jul 2012, 12:39:07 UTC

The Higgs boson is simply the quantum of a field, the Higgs field. This field acquires a massive quantum because of the spontaneous symmetry breaking when the ground state of the field is degenerate, that is it can exist with different eigensvalues (Goldstone theorem, 1961). So it is the field that is important, not the boson. This was demonstrated by P.W. Higgs, F.Englert, R.Brout, G.S.Guralnik, C.R.Hagen,and T.W.Kibble in 1964. Who will get the Nobel prize is anybody's guess. and also the experimentalists will be considered, all 8000 of them.
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Message 1258952 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 16:16:38 UTC - in response to Message 1258625.  

... You see the particle that CERN just announced means nothing, ... The physicists will drag you down the garden path with tall tales and stories of extra dimensions and super symmetric particles, none of which exist. When you hear this, you know its Bullsh*t. Its intellectuals using complex long words to make themselves feel good when really they haven't a clue what the real problem is. ...

And so Quantum Theory is as nothing? And so goes 'poof!' most of our "high tech" technology today? And all from "Bullsh*t" spanning less than a century...

Ooops... Looks like "Johnney Guinness" just evaporated in his own improbability.

Sorry, but you have just trashed the very theories and technology that we and you use every day.


Sorry, that is one beer too many. There is a lot more to learn. Far beyond what I know but at least I can appreciate good honest thorough Science as opposed to the old fabled "Irish yarn"...

Keep searchin',
Martin

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Message 1258999 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 17:32:14 UTC
Last modified: 11 Jul 2012, 17:41:08 UTC

Martin,
You got to be kidding me!! I never said quantum theory is nothing. I say that quantum mechanics is the corner stone of all of science!! I was specifically criticising "extra dimensions" and "super symmetric particles".

Prove me wrong Martin. Show me one experiment where i can test and prove an extra dimension exists, other than the X, Y, X and time that we know about!

Show me an experiment where i can test for the existence of super symmetric particles. Its doesn't exist!

Both "extra dimensions" and "super symmetric particles" are fiction! Neither exist! But academic physicists love to talk about them all the time. And thats the point i made. By talking about extremely complex fictional particles and forces, physicists make themselves feel they are much smarter than everybody else. Truth is, they just don't want to admit they don't have the answer. An honest physicist will admit that he doesn't have the answer!

Martin science should make things easier to understand. When science fails to do this, then something is wrong! When science makes something more complex to explain, thats the proof the theory is flawed.

Tullio,
You said:
The Higgs boson is simply the quantum of a field, the Higgs field.

Thats rubbish. Show me a link to a science article on the internet that described the Higgs boson like that.

John.
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Message 1259048 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 18:35:12 UTC
Last modified: 11 Jul 2012, 18:42:24 UTC

We currently assume that the three known dimensions which are known to exist relate to the known forces of nature.

Namely electromagnetism, the weak nuclear force and the strong nuclear force.

Assumedly, different sets of rules exist for each of these forces on their own.

What if we were wondering whether gravity existed at all and possibly was one of the fundamental forces in nature.

Now we are trying to implement time into the other three dimensions (or perhaps the opposite way around).

Earlier on, the electromagnetic force and the weak electromagnetic force were combined into a single force by means of theories derived by physicists. More or less, the strong nuclear force have also been merged with the other two forces as well.

What is missing then? Is it time, or is it gravity? Can one or more of these two elements be regarded as being forces which are fundamental in nature?

Which sets of rules explain gravity and time? Still they are two different and separate things.

Will scientists be able to explain this with the current knowledge of mathematics and physics and will the discovery or confirmation of the Higgs Boson help speed up this process of understanding?
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Message 1259065 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 19:14:58 UTC - in response to Message 1258999.  
Last modified: 11 Jul 2012, 19:32:08 UTC


Thats rubbish. Show me a link to a science article on the internet that described the Higgs boson like that.

John.

From CERN Bulletin:
Antoniadis: If the new particle is confirmed to be a Standard Model Higgs boson, then we must observe that it is relatively light, perhaps lighter that what a large part of the community was expecting up until just a few months ago.

The Higgs field associated with the boson would still permeate the Universe but it may need to be partly reinterpreted. Given the low mass of the boson, the potential that describes the field could for instance present two minima instead of just one. The universe is currently set in one of the two minima but quantum mechanics could allow for a transition to the second minimum. This, in my opinion, might signal the existence of some new physics that would compensate for this instability (**).

Tullio
As I wrote, the ground state of the universe is degenerate, because it has two minima, hence the Higgs boson is a massive Goldstone boson. QED
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Message 1259815 - Posted: 13 Jul 2012, 12:46:34 UTC
Last modified: 13 Jul 2012, 12:49:39 UTC

I've read a review of a book by Frank Close:
The Infinity puzzle: Quantum Field Theory and the hunt for an orderly universe.
2011 Basic Books.
The review was in a copy of Physicsworld by the American Institute of Physics which was offered to me as a PDF file for free. It covers all the history of quantum field theory starting from the work of Feynman, Schwinger and Tomonaga up to the search for the Higgs boson. The Schwinger-Feynman-Tomonaga story, which obtained for them the Nobel prize, is narrated also by Freeman J.Dyson in his book "Disturbing the universe", Harper&Row 1979, which covers also subjects such as extraterrstrial life forms and space travel,
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Message 1259868 - Posted: 13 Jul 2012, 15:58:35 UTC
Last modified: 13 Jul 2012, 16:01:09 UTC

Sounds like a good book Tullio,
Tullio very regularly on these boards you talk about the physics type books you read and it seems that you read a lot of these type books. Why?

I mean whats your motivation for reading physics books?
1. General curiosity maybe?
2. Just to learn and understand the physics maybe?
3. To try understand the problem, and maybe try to solve the problem?
4. ???

I will tell you why i ask Tullio! I read hugh quantities of information, more of it on the internet rather than from books. But i do buy books when i cannot get the information on the internet. I also get a lot of information through watching video lectures from universities on Youtube. There is also a massive amount of physics information on Wikipedia.

But i limit the information i read to very specific pieces of information i'm looking for. I go looking for answers to actually "solve" the problems i read about. So i won't buy someones book just to get their "opinion" on a scientific subject. I will only read the information if i think the information gets me closer to the answer i am searching for. I guess i go looking for solutions, rather than just to simply educate myself on some topic in physics.

John.
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Message 1259871 - Posted: 13 Jul 2012, 16:15:17 UTC - in response to Message 1259868.  

As you know I have a theoretical physics degree. But that was many years ago, and physics has progressed while I was doing other things just to make a living. So I try to keep up with this progress, mostly by reading magazines such as "Science", "Nature" and, by a lesser degree, "New Scientist". When I was a physics and astronomy editor at Mondadori I had all these magazines in the office. But, since exiting Mondadori, I could not afford to pay all the subscription rates. Then came Internet, and I can read at least some articles on the online version of these magazines. When I find an interesting article, I download it and print it on my printer. So I have a private library made up from printed papers. I don't buy many books, but I still have my copies of the books I have used in my studies. The only science book I bought in recent times is Einstein's scientific biography by Abraham Pais, "Subtle is the Lord", not an easy book that covers many subjects besides relativity. Einstein was really a master of science and covered many fields. Cheers.
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Message 1260033 - Posted: 13 Jul 2012, 22:52:39 UTC - in response to Message 1259815.  

... It covers all the history of quantum field theory starting from the work of Feynman, Schwinger and Tomonaga up to the search for the Higgs boson. The Schwinger-Feynman-Tomonaga story, which obtained for them the Nobel prize, is narrated also by Freeman J.Dyson in his book "Disturbing the universe", Harper&Row 1979, which covers also subjects such as extraterrstrial life forms and space travel,
Tullio

I still have that book on my shelves from many years ago. I remember it as a good and easily accessible read.

Perhaps Johnney should read a little more around his subject to find and maintain context. I also remember long ago reading a small book, possibly by Robert P. Crease, that gave a good example of how you can dive into deep arcanery from just a small number of assumptions taken in isolation when combined with a wilful ignorance of the wider world.


True Science is when you can look at everything without prejudice. However, that all should also be tempered by Occam's Razor!

Keep searchin',
Martin

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Message 1260097 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 1:41:44 UTC - in response to Message 1260033.  

Physics is not confined to CERN and LHC, despite all the media clamoring about the Higgs boson. Dr Ben Segal of CERN has promised us volunteers to talk to the ATLAS experiment people after the clamor has subsided to convince them to give some of their real data to the Test4Theory@home volunteers. For the moment we are only running MonteCarlo simulations of p-p events.
But other events are developing at the Gran Sasso underground laboratory, the home of the neutrino fiasco. The GERDA experiment has found evidence of a neutrino-less double beta decay (see Beta Test in "Nature" of 12 July) which would prove an hypothesis made in 1937 by Ettore Majorana, that is the existence of particles which are their own antiparticles. This would really revolutionize physics. The claim is contested and other experiments are being planned.
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Message 1260256 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 11:50:06 UTC - in response to Message 1260097.  

Physics is not confined to CERN and LHC, despite all the media clamoring about the Higgs boson. ...

But other events are developing at the Gran Sasso underground laboratory, the home of the neutrino fiasco. ...

That 'fiasco' has likely done far more good than harm, despite the sacrifice of a few people...

How few people had heard of that lab compared to now? Let alone know anything of what the lab does?...


Hopefully, the political interest will boost funds to replace more than those poor souls sacrificed as part of the media glare.

Keep seaarchin',
Martin

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Message 1260268 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 12:33:14 UTC
Last modified: 14 Jul 2012, 12:33:46 UTC

The Government has cut funds to the Istituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare and other scientific institutions. Meanwhile they are still going to buy a sizable number of F35 short take off and landing stealth fighters which cost 200 million dollars each. Since we have no enemies and already have a number of Eurofighter Typhoons and leased F16, we don't need them. Ok, they can't fly from our 2 jump jet carriers, but Italy is a long, unsinkable, carrier.
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Message 1260308 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 15:03:09 UTC - in response to Message 1260033.  
Last modified: 14 Jul 2012, 15:07:43 UTC

... It covers all the history of quantum field theory starting from the work of Feynman, Schwinger and Tomonaga up to the search for the Higgs boson. The Schwinger-Feynman-Tomonaga story, which obtained for them the Nobel prize, is narrated also by Freeman J.Dyson in his book "Disturbing the universe", Harper&Row 1979, which covers also subjects such as extraterrstrial life forms and space travel,
Tullio

I still have that book on my shelves from many years ago. I remember it as a good and easily accessible read.

Perhaps Johnney should read a little more around his subject to find and maintain context. I also remember long ago reading a small book, possibly by Robert P. Crease, that gave a good example of how you can dive into deep arcanery from just a small number of assumptions taken in isolation when combined with a wilful ignorance of the wider world.


True Science is when you can look at everything without prejudice. However, that all should also be tempered by Occam's Razor!

Keep searchin',
Martin

You got to be kidding me Martin!
If i get any closer to the research i'm doing, i will become a Higgs Boson!

Occam's Razor Martin??? What planet have you been living on? Have you heard whats been going on in the physics community for the last 10 years? Have you heard some of the "theories" that are going around? Super symmetry, string theory, dark matter, dark energy, black holes, matter "Big Banging" into existence out of no where?? Particle Zoo's and a complete periodic table of the elements inside the proton?

And i will tell you whats worse. All those theories are being taken seriously! Many of them are almost being taught as fact! Without even a shred of proof!

So Martin don't be quoting Occam's Razor to me buddy!

I'm the realist here! My theory brings the whole lot back into the realm of reality! I can't get any closer than solving the problem.

John.
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Message 1260384 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 17:55:42 UTC - in response to Message 1260308.  

... Have you heard whats been going on in the physics community for the last 10 years? Have you heard some of the "theories" that are going around? Super symmetry, string theory, dark matter, dark energy, black holes, matter "Big Banging" into existence out of no where?? Particle Zoo's and a complete periodic table of the elements inside the proton?

And i will tell you whats worse. All those theories are being taken seriously! Many of them are almost being taught as fact! Without even a shred of proof!

... I'm the realist here! My theory brings the whole lot back into the realm of reality! I can't get any closer than solving the problem.

Hey! All that lot has been going on for a lot longer than just the last ten years!!

OK... So sounds like we need at least a first draft introduction to get a glimpse of your direction for your competing hypothesis, prophecy, observations, research, explorations, discovery, book, whatever... For without substance, we deliberate for naught...


As an aside, the Casimir Effect has been directly measured on equipment very similar to that used myself from my research days. There's all the quantum and electromagnetic radiation hocus-pocus that gives one explanation that also fits in with a lot of other observed effects, and includes the 'creation' of 'phantom' particles... So, we have one family of explanations that do seem to work very well. Those explanations could all be an oversimplification, or they could be all wrong. However, those ideas work well for what we can observe at present.

Which is where the LHC may prove us all wrong... Or worryingly correct enough to suggest even weirder things!


So... From your research, your alternate theory is?

(Or is this an alternate "Creationism" to be taught as "fact"?!)


Keep searchin',
Martin

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Message 1260427 - Posted: 14 Jul 2012, 21:36:20 UTC
Last modified: 14 Jul 2012, 21:48:28 UTC

Martin,
My research is in two half's. There is the ancient "book" i claim to have found. And the other half is my physics discovery. When i am discussing physics, the ancient book will not come into the discussion. Yes, i know, it sounds like some amazing coincidence that i have made two unconnected discoveries. But they ARE connected, i just haven't told you guys yet how they are connected, I can't. But physics is physics, so i won't veer off the scientific track.

Physics;

Spread across many threads at this stage, i have spelt out many of the consequences of my physics theory. And i have also said that i am not yet willing to part with the root of my physics discovery. But again i will summarise some of the consequences of my physics discovery.

Most, if not all, of theoretical astronomy and cosmology will be obsolete within a few years. Note that i specifically say "theoretical" stuff. Lets say Hubble telescope, or any telescope for that matter takes an astronomy image. That image is REAL astronomy, its real stuff. It might be real stars, real Galaxy's, real galaxy clusters, real nebula, or whatever. That stuff is NOT theoretical and is exactly what is out there!

So what's theoretical in astronomy and cosmology?

Here is a list of stuff that is "theoretical";
1. Black holes
2. Dark matter
3. Dark energy
4. Singularities
4. The Big Bang
5. The ending, i.e. the Big crunch or the endless expansion to infinity or the cold ending.

They are all "theoretical" constructs that are now propagated by astronomers and cosmologists as being "fact". But the true fact is that we haven't a single telescope in the sky that can take a picture of any of them, at any wavelength of the electromagnetic spectrum. None, we can't see any of them!! And if you "believe" the astronomers, we can only see 4% of the matter in the universe! The other 96% is missing!!

How could all that "stuff" be missing Martin? Lets get real here, what the hell is wrong? This is not a joke, this is science and we should be able to explain this stuff. But no, instead astronomers are quoting all the things i mentioned above as 100% scientific fact.

Now Martin i appeal to your better sense of scientific intelligence. Does this smell like a rat or what? Martin doesn't this just sound like something is wrong? Could it be Martin that, somewhere, buried in the maths, the endless pages of maths, there might be a small error? Yes, maybe there really is 96% of the universe missing! But i don't think so Martin, i think there is a small error in the endless pages of maths buried in the universities of the world.

Martin maybe it took a guy from outside those universities to find the error. Maybe i found the error Martin. I'm clearly saying that i found an error!

John.
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Message 1260484 - Posted: 15 Jul 2012, 0:54:33 UTC - in response to Message 1260427.  

A black hole is not visible, this was already known to Pierre Simon de Laplace in the XVIII Century. The matter falling into a black hole is visible because it emits X-rays. Pictures of it have been taken by the Chandra X-ray space telescope and now, with greater resolution, by the NuSTAR telescope. I have already published this information and someone else has posted an image of Cygnus X-1 black hole taken by NuSTAR. You cannot ignore this fact.
Tullio
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