Results from the LHC soon?

Message boards : Science (non-SETI) : Results from the LHC soon?

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Author	Message
msattler Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 34151 Credit: 344,317,462 RAC: 543,232	Message 1257043 - Posted: 7 Jul 2012, 14:20:26 UTC - in response to Message 1257040.
	If I held a block of metal in my hand and then let go of it, it would fall to the ground. Why? Because my foot is there for it to fall on..... From past experience, I know this to be true. Ouch. ____________ ****** "Ask not, what your kitty can do for you. Ask what you can do for your kitty." As it is kitten, so shall it be done.
	ID: 1257043 · Reply Quote

tullio Send message Joined: 9 Apr 04 Posts: 2905 Credit: 259,140 RAC: 300	Message 1257076 - Posted: 7 Jul 2012, 15:32:36 UTC
	Chris, gravity does not need an iron core. The gravitational attractions exists between any two masses, as demonstrated in the laboratory by Eotvos.Galileo threw some stones from the Leaning Tower of Pisa and demonstrated that they fall in equal time whatever their mass. This equivalence principle between inertial mass and gravitational mass is the basis of general relativity. Tullio ____________
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Chris S Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 19 Nov 00 Posts: 22736 Credit: 4,518,231 RAC: 5,744	Message 1257082 - Posted: 7 Jul 2012, 15:38:06 UTC
	Okaaaaaay. So define gravity then and why it happens .....
	ID: 1257082 · Reply Quote

tullio Send message Joined: 9 Apr 04 Posts: 2905 Credit: 259,140 RAC: 300	Message 1257092 - Posted: 7 Jul 2012, 15:58:37 UTC - in response to Message 1257082. Last modified: 7 Jul 2012, 16:05:09 UTC
	Okaaaaaay. So define gravity then and why it happens ..... It is one of the 4 fundamental interactions, nuclear strong, electromagnetic, nuclear weak and gravitation. It is the weakest of the 4 but it is long range and determines the structure of the universe.Its field id a tensor field, that is its quantum would have mass 0 and spin 2 but has never been observed and probably never will. We (Einstein@home)and other people are trying to detect the gravitational equivalent of electromagnetic waves, which are generated by a vector field whose quantum, the photon, has mass zero and spin 1.But gravitational waves have not yet been observed, because they are very weak. Why these 4 interactions exist and why they have so different strengths I do not know and nobody knows. God only knows. The first 3 are all correlated in the Standard Model of elementary particle, the fourth is not.Anybody who succeeded in doing this, including Johnney, would receive a Nobel prize. Tullio ____________
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msattler Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 34151 Credit: 344,317,462 RAC: 543,232	Message 1257095 - Posted: 7 Jul 2012, 16:02:23 UTC - in response to Message 1257082.
	Okaaaaaay. So define gravity then and why it happens ..... Define it? Pain, when my foot understands that the brick has hit it......... Why?.. Because my foot was in the path of the brick. ____________ ****** "Ask not, what your kitty can do for you. Ask what you can do for your kitty." As it is kitten, so shall it be done.
	ID: 1257095 · Reply Quote

William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 2125 Credit: 1,088,132 RAC: 145	Message 1257104 - Posted: 7 Jul 2012, 16:32:32 UTC Last modified: 7 Jul 2012, 16:33:56 UTC
	Gravity is defined by the General Theory of Einstein. A warpage of space caused by mass and the fact that any system seeks it's lowest state of energy. Quantum Loop Gravity is still undefined and may offer some unification toward the Grand Unified Theory. The Higgs was related to how particles acquire mass. Mass and gravity are not the same thing
	ID: 1257104 · Reply Quote

Johnney Guinness Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 11 Sep 06 Posts: 2944 Credit: 2,305,966 RAC: 330	Message 1257108 - Posted: 7 Jul 2012, 16:38:07 UTC Last modified: 7 Jul 2012, 16:38:52 UTC
	Here is a good question! Does anyone here believe me when i say that i have the solution to the problem of unifying gravity with the rest of physics. I can understand anyone being generally skeptical because i have not provided the solution. But does anyone believe me? Or would you even have an open mind on the idea that i might have solved the problem? John. ____________
	ID: 1257108 · Reply Quote

tullio Send message Joined: 9 Apr 04 Posts: 2905 Credit: 259,140 RAC: 300	Message 1257109 - Posted: 7 Jul 2012, 16:39:16 UTC - in response to Message 1257104.
	The Higgs was related to how particles acquire mass. Mass and gravity are not the same thing There are two masses, inertial mass and gravitational mass, which are equivalent according to Einstein. The Higgs theory refers to inertial mass, not to gravitational mass. This as far as I know. Tullio ____________
	ID: 1257109 · Reply Quote

tullio Send message Joined: 9 Apr 04 Posts: 2905 Credit: 259,140 RAC: 300	Message 1257111 - Posted: 7 Jul 2012, 16:43:14 UTC - in response to Message 1257108.
	I would believe you if you were Jesus Christ. Remember what He said to Apostle Thomas: you believe me because you have seen my nail holes. Blessed are those who believe me without having seen them. But you have no nail holes. Tullio ____________
	ID: 1257111 · Reply Quote

Johnney Guinness Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 11 Sep 06 Posts: 2944 Credit: 2,305,966 RAC: 330	Message 1257115 - Posted: 7 Jul 2012, 17:03:26 UTC - in response to Message 1257111. Last modified: 7 Jul 2012, 17:07:30 UTC
	I would believe you if you were Jesus Christ. Tullio, No, i'm not Jesus. But there a few months back, i wasn't sure. So i had to do a few checks just in case i was Jesus. So i made out a check-list to see if i passed any of the criteria that would make me Jesus. 1. Jesus was the Son of God - I failed, i have a normal standard human father. I look just like him. 2. Jesus led a good life - I failed this too. I have been a sinner from day one. 3. Jesus preformed miracles by healing people - I failed here too. I struggle to put band-aids on cuts. I can't heal anyone. So i fail most of the criteria for being Jesus. Aw well, maybe next time. Remember what He said to Apostle Thomas: you believe me because you have seen my nail holes. Blessed are those who believe me without having seen them. But you have no nail holes. Tullio Thats very appropriate Tullio, Yes, i am asking people to believe me without showing you the scientific proofs first. But there is a difference here. I do have the scientific proofs. But as i said before, i'm just with-holding them for the moment to allow me time to try to benefit from my own discovery in some way. But i have also told you that i will show you the proofs at some stage. I just don't know yet when i can do that. John. ____________
	ID: 1257115 · Reply Quote

ML1 Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 7137 Credit: 3,684,894 RAC: 965	Message 1258604 - Posted: 10 Jul 2012, 23:17:52 UTC Last modified: 10 Jul 2012, 23:18:32 UTC
	One for a few pints of Guinness! Is the Higgs boson an imposter? A group of Argonne National Laboratory researchers has suggested that last week’s CERN data, fanfared to the world as the discovery of the elusive Higgs-Boson, might actually point to even more exotic creatures. ... All quite possible, but all not as likely as the good assumptions made so far. However, as is often the case in Science, it is all a question of how certain you want to be... Keep searchin', Martin ____________ Mandriva Linux A user friendly OS! See new freedom Mageia2 The Future is what We make IT (GPLv3)
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Johnney Guinness Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 11 Sep 06 Posts: 2944 Credit: 2,305,966 RAC: 330	Message 1258625 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 0:23:26 UTC - in response to Message 1258604. Last modified: 11 Jul 2012, 0:37:53 UTC
	One for a few pints of Guinness! Is the Higgs boson an imposter? Martin Martin, Remember the things i have said in this thread. This debate is NOT over by a long shot! The "Higgs like" particle announced by CERN has NOT solved the problem!! Remember that! Remember i told you that! This is what to look out for in the "physics type news" in the coming months and years. Watch closely for news articles that discuss the so called "Higgs field"; http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_field You see the particle that CERN just announced means nothing, they are no closer to solving the problem! The problem exists in their explanation of how that Higgs Boson interacts with the so called "Higgs field" to give all particles "Mass". The physicists will drag you down the garden path with tall tales and stories of extra dimensions and super symmetric particles, none of which exist. When you hear this, you know its Bullsh*t. Its intellectuals using complex long words to make themselves feel good when really they haven't a clue what the real problem is. Truth is, they are trying to explain Gravity and they can't! Why, because they still have not found the error. But like i said, i found the error. Now isn't that just a crying shame! The academic scientific community have build themselves a media machine, and a system of recording science, that excludes people like me. I'm outside the system they built, so even if i do have the solution, i cannot contribute the solution into the system. It means i will never get credit for the work i put into solving the problem. Well we will see who will have the last laugh here! I still have the upper hand here, i still have the solution, and they don't. This puts me in a very powerful position. I wonder what mischief i could get up to with the knowledge i have. John. ____________
	ID: 1258625 · Reply Quote

tullio Send message Joined: 9 Apr 04 Posts: 2905 Credit: 259,140 RAC: 300	Message 1258661 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 2:05:35 UTC
	The motto of the Accademia del Cimento, founded in Florence at the time of Galileo, was "Provando and riprovandO", which does not mean "Trying and retrying" but "Proofing (truth) and disproofing (error)". No scientist believes he has reached an absolute truth but every scientific result must be checked and rechecked. This process is going on also on the results announced at CERN, and they are still being checked and rechecked even on my PC where the Test4Theory@home is doing just that. This is science, the rest is rubbish. Tullio ____________
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Michel448a Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 27 Oct 00 Posts: 1137 Credit: 2,858,732 RAC: 75	Message 1258733 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 5:05:50 UTC - in response to Message 1258661.
	the pros and cons :) the proCERNs and the conCERNs ____________
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Chris S Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 19 Nov 00 Posts: 22736 Credit: 4,518,231 RAC: 5,744	Message 1258818 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 8:41:05 UTC
	As far as I can see the guys at Cern do seem to have discovered a new particle not seen before, but they don't know what it is yet. They hope it is the Higgs because that would explain a lot of things quite nicely. If it turns out to be something else it could complicate matters even further. We simply have to wait and see. The LHC hasn't been a waste of time as we have discovered something new, which can only help to advance scientific knowledge.
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Johnney Guinness Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 11 Sep 06 Posts: 2944 Credit: 2,305,966 RAC: 330	Message 1258849 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 10:43:09 UTC Last modified: 11 Jul 2012, 10:46:15 UTC
	Correct, the LHC is not a waste of time. Its a very valuable experiment. And its not just the search for the Higgs Boson, there are multiple chambers along the 27km route of the tunnel. Each chamber has a different type of "camera" to watch different types of collisions. Here is a simple way to see the flaw in the way they describe the Higgs Boson and the Higgs field; Supposedly the Higgs Boson gives "mass" to all sub-atomic particles. Well what about the simplest particle, the electron? You, me, your computer in front of you, your house, everything around you is surrounded by electrons. Electrons are what you interact with in the world. The electrons have Mass! So where is the Higgs Boson inside an electron that has been separated from the nucleus of an atom? This where the Higgs theory fails!! An electron has Mass too, where is its Higgs Boson? I'm sure any physicist would use his "get out of jail free card" and tell you the electron's mass is too small to notice the Higgs particle inside it. That will make the physicist feel better about himself that he has out-smarted you, even though he doesn't know the answer himself. Simple fact is this. The electron does not have a Higgs Boson! The theory surrounding the Higgs Boson and its interaction with the Higgs field is simply wrong. John. ____________
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tullio Send message Joined: 9 Apr 04 Posts: 2905 Credit: 259,140 RAC: 300	Message 1258891 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 12:31:52 UTC Last modified: 11 Jul 2012, 12:39:07 UTC
	The Higgs boson is simply the quantum of a field, the Higgs field. This field acquires a massive quantum because of the spontaneous symmetry breaking when the ground state of the field is degenerate, that is it can exist with different eigensvalues (Goldstone theorem, 1961). So it is the field that is important, not the boson. This was demonstrated by P.W. Higgs, F.Englert, R.Brout, G.S.Guralnik, C.R.Hagen,and T.W.Kibble in 1964. Who will get the Nobel prize is anybody's guess. and also the experimentalists will be considered, all 8000 of them. Tullio ____________
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ML1 Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 7137 Credit: 3,684,894 RAC: 965	Message 1258952 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 16:16:38 UTC - in response to Message 1258625.
	... You see the particle that CERN just announced means nothing, ... The physicists will drag you down the garden path with tall tales and stories of extra dimensions and super symmetric particles, none of which exist. When you hear this, you know its Bullsht. Its intellectuals using complex long words to make themselves feel good when really they haven't a clue what the real problem is. ... And so Quantum Theory is as nothing? And so goes 'poof!' most of our "high tech" technology today? And all from "Bullsht" spanning less than a century... Ooops... Looks like "Johnney Guinness" just evaporated in his own improbability. Sorry, but you have just trashed the very theories and technology that we and you use every day. Sorry, that is one beer too many. There is a lot more to learn. Far beyond what I know but at least I can appreciate good honest thorough Science as opposed to the old fabled "Irish yarn"... Keep searchin', Martin ____________ Mandriva Linux A user friendly OS! See new freedom Mageia2 The Future is what We make IT (GPLv3)
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Johnney Guinness Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 11 Sep 06 Posts: 2944 Credit: 2,305,966 RAC: 330	Message 1258999 - Posted: 11 Jul 2012, 17:32:14 UTC Last modified: 11 Jul 2012, 17:41:08 UTC
	Martin, You got to be kidding me!! I never said quantum theory is nothing. I say that quantum mechanics is the corner stone of all of science!! I was specifically criticising "extra dimensions" and "super symmetric particles". Prove me wrong Martin. Show me one experiment where i can test and prove an extra dimension exists, other than the X, Y, X and time that we know about! Show me an experiment where i can test for the existence of super symmetric particles. Its doesn't exist! Both "extra dimensions" and "super symmetric particles" are fiction! Neither exist! But academic physicists love to talk about them all the time. And thats the point i made. By talking about extremely complex fictional particles and forces, physicists make themselves feel they are much smarter than everybody else. Truth is, they just don't want to admit they don't have the answer. An honest physicist will admit that he doesn't have the answer! Martin science should make things easier to understand. When science fails to do this, then something is wrong! When science makes something more complex to explain, thats the proof the theory is flawed. Tullio, You said: The Higgs boson is simply the quantum of a field, the Higgs field. Thats rubbish. Show me a link to a science article on the internet that described the Higgs boson like that. John. ____________
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Message boards : Science (non-SETI) : Results from the LHC soon?