An argument for the existence of God: Second Pass...


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Profile Chris SProject donor
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Message 1253430 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 21:49:22 UTC

Thank you. You appear to be able to understand me. Thats all that is needed.

Oh gosh, now you've gone and done it good and proper ....

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Message 1253455 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 22:27:54 UTC - in response to Message 1253430.

I'm doomed -- losing hair too, so I'll be domed as well. The Sumerians will never forgive me.



Thank you. You appear to be able to understand me. Thats all that is needed.

Oh gosh, now you've gone and done it good and proper ....

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Message 1253463 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 22:35:02 UTC

I wish it to be officially declared here now that "The People's Liberation Front of Judea" do not recognise the existence of any Gods.

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Message 1253477 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 22:52:16 UTC

I wish it to be declared here and now that nor do the "Revolutionary Tooting Popular Front"



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Message 1253481 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 22:59:40 UTC - in response to Message 1253477.
Last modified: 29 Jun 2012, 23:02:09 UTC

I wish it to be declared here and now that nor do the "Revolutionary Tooting Popular Front"

Oh no!!!...don't tell me their back in town again?..Think I'll clear-off
back home to Babylon!!!
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Message 1253487 - Posted: 29 Jun 2012, 23:13:34 UTC - in response to Message 1253455.

Neither will the Doctor.
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Message 1253551 - Posted: 30 Jun 2012, 2:34:17 UTC

Perhaps a few of you should go and reread the first post in this thread?


The Revised Drake Equation




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Message 1253626 - Posted: 30 Jun 2012, 6:37:24 UTC

Deviations from subject will be tolerated, so long as they are within the context of the "debate"

We have kept within the request.

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Message 1253638 - Posted: 30 Jun 2012, 7:18:07 UTC
Last modified: 30 Jun 2012, 7:21:01 UTC

Oh, Chris is deviating from the Bible.

I guess he has no "beliefs".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=0XTUX5oBeSA

Heavens Revelation [1080 p HD].

You know, if you are a "first time user" and try locating the galaxies M81 and M82 in Ursa Major, you may think that you have stumbled across some F or G type stars which by coincidence may be located in the same area.

Do you possibly associate any such star or stars by the possible existence or precence of life?

Most likely not, though you may notice or stumble across this fact if you happen to be an amateur astronomer.

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Message 1253649 - Posted: 30 Jun 2012, 7:43:16 UTC - in response to Message 1253626.

Indeed, this isn't really a debate anyway (and hasn't been from the start), just a Monty Python style argument -- and most of the past several posts have been compliant with the Monty Python style.



Deviations from subject will be tolerated, so long as they are within the context of the "debate"

We have kept within the request.

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Message 1253747 - Posted: 30 Jun 2012, 15:22:07 UTC - in response to Message 1253551.
Last modified: 30 Jun 2012, 15:31:56 UTC

Perhaps a few of you should go and reread the first post in this thread?


The Revised Drake Equation


Shame you didn't have your wife proof the link ;)

I see you're back at the Drake Equation. What do you think it shows?

It's been a couple of months since I posted the following:

As for Drake's equation, I think Michael Crichton probably had it right:

Michael crichton wrote:

The problem, of course, is that none of the terms can be known, and most cannot even be estimated. The only way to work the equation is to fill in with guesses. And guesses—just so we’re clear—are merely expressions of prejudice. Nor can there be “informed guesses.” If you need to state how many planets with life choose to communicate, there is simply no way to make an informed guess. It’s simply prejudice.


What does it have to do with any meaningful scientific study?


You appear to ignore the fact that the Drake Equation is "simply prejudice", though to my knowledge, have not provided any basis for doing so.

[ETA]Fixed Michael Crichton link[/ETA]
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1253901 - Posted: 30 Jun 2012, 23:24:24 UTC

As a result, the Drake equation can have any value from “billions and billions” to zero.

The above taken from Bobby's link to Michael Crichton is the same conclusion
that I drew in my posting several months back regarding Drakes Equation.
I stated then that the equation was fundamentally floored because it can easily
return a count of Zero, something followers of this equation failed to
appreciate.

I see you're back at the Drake Equation. What do you think it shows?

It showed that Drake pumped garbage in and got a whole load of garbage back out
and in the process a whole load of people fell for the result.

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Message 1253934 - Posted: 1 Jul 2012, 1:21:07 UTC

The Drake equation is nothing more than a guess, with no predetermined validity. To me, the chances of earth being the only planet with intelligent life, are very small. We are here for a chance to see what else is out there. We may find something, or we may not. We are doing the best we can to keep looking. Just like everything else. We are doing the best we can to learn answers. We will either find them or not, but we won't invent them.

Steve
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Message 1254056 - Posted: 1 Jul 2012, 9:15:18 UTC - in response to Message 1253934.
Last modified: 1 Jul 2012, 9:24:44 UTC

Would 200 million be in the realm of Hyer-reals?


No, a hyper real is any number that is greater than zero but less than any real number. It's inverse is larger than any real number. Sounds crazy and illogical but read a few articles on them and you will see what i am talking about.

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Message 1254058 - Posted: 1 Jul 2012, 9:22:45 UTC - in response to Message 1253934.
Last modified: 1 Jul 2012, 9:25:12 UTC

The Drake equation has infinite uncertainty in all of the guesses at the components.

Most people who applied it early on predicted many civilizations in the Galaxy. So I am with Fermi--- where are they ??

I expect that if we knew and wrote down all the things necessary for intelligent life and their parameter ranges that we would find that there is a very low probability when we look at how many planets that we have found meet all of them.


If what I suspect is true then there may be a few (very few) such planets in the galaxy. There would of course be a very large number in the Universe so you could conclude that such life does exist out there somewhere. Will we ever know ?? that's what we are doing here in SETI --but I remain a skeptic that I will or we will hit the Lottery jackpot.

I still buy my ticket almost every week.

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Message 1254066 - Posted: 1 Jul 2012, 9:47:21 UTC - in response to Message 1254058.

The Drake equation has infinite uncertainty in all of the guesses at the components.

Most people who applied it early on predicted many civilizations in the Galaxy. So I am with Fermi--- where are they ??

I expect that if we knew and wrote down all the things necessary for intelligent life and their parameter ranges that we would find that there is a very low probability when we look at how many planets that we have found meet all of them.


If what I suspect is true then there may be a few (very few) such planets in the galaxy. There would of course be a very large number in the Universe so you could conclude that such life does exist out there somewhere. Will we ever know ?? that's what we are doing here in SETI --but I remain a skeptic that I will or we will hit the Lottery jackpot.


I still buy my ticket almost every week.

Will', I agree with you, the chances of intelligent life out there seems pretty
remote to me too. But irrespective of the remote chances of there being anything
then like you I still wont to keep listening out too....just in case.

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Message 1254095 - Posted: 1 Jul 2012, 12:00:34 UTC

It showed that Drake pumped garbage in and got a whole load of garbage back out and in the process a whole load of people fell for the result.

Computer buffs are well versed in the GIGO scenario, but isn't Seti@Home based around Drake?

How can we estimate the number of technological civilizations that might exist among the stars? While working as a radio astronomer at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory in Green Bank, West Virginia, Dr. Frank Drake (currently on the Board of the SETI Institute) conceived an approach to bound the terms involved in estimating the number of technological civilizations that may exist in our galaxy. The Drake Equation, as it has become known, was first presented by Drake in 1961 and identifies specific factors thought to play a role in the development of such civilizations. Although there is no unique solution to this equation, it is a generally accepted tool used by the scientific community to examine these factors.

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Message 1254097 - Posted: 1 Jul 2012, 12:14:18 UTC

Computer buffs are well versed in the GIGO scenario, but isn't Seti@Home based around Drake?

Driven by Drakes result of "High Probability"...

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Message 1254157 - Posted: 1 Jul 2012, 14:35:15 UTC - in response to Message 1254095.

It showed that Drake pumped garbage in and got a whole load of garbage back out and in the process a whole load of people fell for the result.

Computer buffs are well versed in the GIGO scenario, but isn't Seti@Home based around Drake?

How can we estimate the number of technological civilizations that might exist among the stars? While working as a radio astronomer at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory in Green Bank, West Virginia, Dr. Frank Drake (currently on the Board of the SETI Institute) conceived an approach to bound the terms involved in estimating the number of technological civilizations that may exist in our galaxy. The Drake Equation, as it has become known, was first presented by Drake in 1961 and identifies specific factors thought to play a role in the development of such civilizations. Although there is no unique solution to this equation, it is a generally accepted tool used by the scientific community to examine these factors.



Chris, why not post the link for the quote? The page ends:

Besides illuminating the factors involved in such a search, the Drake Equation is a simple, effective tool for stimulating intellectual curiosity about the universe around us, for helping us to understand that life as we know it is the end product of a natural, cosmic evolution, and for making us realize how much we are a part of that universe. A key goal of the SETI Institute is to further high quality research that will yield additional information related to any of the factors of this fascinating equation.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1254261 - Posted: 1 Jul 2012, 17:47:08 UTC - in response to Message 1254058.
Last modified: 1 Jul 2012, 18:14:14 UTC

The Drake equation has infinite uncertainty in all of the guesses at the components.

Most people who applied it early on predicted many civilizations in the Galaxy. So I am with Fermi--- where are they ??


As I have pointed out here, where are they? Im of the mind that there may be life here in our own system of planets. But, that's it. Life could have formed on Mars and jumped here by collision. Could be life on one of Jupiters moons. But even so, none of it if found could be called intelligent.


I expect that if we knew and wrote down all the things necessary for intelligent life and their parameter ranges that we would find that there is a very low probability when we look at how many planets that we have found meet all of them.


Thats what is in the link I provided, all the things needed for life so far as we know it. So far as we know it, 200 or so variables.


If what I suspect is true then there may be a few (very few) such planets in the galaxy. There would of course be a very large number in the Universe so you could conclude that such life does exist out there somewhere. Will we ever know ?? that's what we are doing here in SETI --but I remain a skeptic that I will or we will hit the Lottery jackpot.


I doubt there are any such planets in our galaxy. Our earth orbits in a alomst perfect circle around our sun. Our earth is almost on a perfect ecliptic plane with our sun.

I think you have avoided or ignored one point. What if Fermi is right, there is no other intelligent life in our galaxy. Then what does that say about life in the universe? It would say as the link I posted says, a very, very low probability. Id not be the one to say stop looking. After all Im here too--looking. But I have no faith in the odds of it.

I still buy my ticket almost every week.


One in two hundred million of a chance is better odds then life elsewhere in the galaxy.

I reckon a better question would be and none of you bothered to ask...Why would God put all of His eggs in one basket?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I don't see a damn thing Monty Python about this.

Reread the first post. Play the ball not the man.

The above questions I have asked are for EVERYBODY who has posted here to answer. They apply to all of you.

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