Barry, thanks I missed the deduction the first time around. That happens as one ages.

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Betrager, many flat tax with no deduction advocates do accept a minimum line like that deduction.

I suppose one could craft a such flat tax which would be less regressive than others by having a higher tax rate along with a higher minimum line. Say a single rate of 40% but exclude the first $40K of income for singles, and $80K for couples with some additional amount for additional dependents.

On the other hand, I think Gary likes the idea of no zero line to insure that everyone pays taxes, even if only a nominal amount - something like $100 of the first $15000 of income regardless of family deductions.

Betrager, many flat tax with no deduction advocates do accept a minimum line like that deduction.

I suppose one could craft a such flat tax which would be less regressive than others by having a higher tax rate along with a higher minimum line. Say a single rate of 40% but exclude the first $40K of income for singles, and $80K for couples with some additional amount for additional dependents.

On the other hand, I think Gary likes the idea of no zero line to insure that everyone pays taxes, even if only a nominal amount - something like $100 of the first $15000 of income regardless of family deductions.

I have said that and mean it for our present system. Everyone should understand you have to pay the piper something to keep it going. Doesn't need to be much, but a little sting just as a reminder. If we continue welfare, you can even give that back, because that hides the freebie.

In a flat system, earn zero pay zero. Earn one dollar and pay your dime. If there are brackets or not is a separate discussion from getting rid of deductions. If there are no brackets it would be hard to argue it wasn't fair as a tax system. As a welfare system it would be a fail.

America needs to separate the tax system and the welfare system. As long as they are mixed everyone will be able to find injustice. And as I said above, the welfare system can be tweaked to cancel out the bite to the bottom end. Only ones who might get hurt is kids on their summer job who now pay nothing but would have to pay flat tax, however the sooner they get used to paying taxes the better.

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Gary, a totally flat tax system plus a welfare system that pays lower income people cash depending upon income is not really a flat tax system. Maintaining the fiction of separate systems might offer a feel good sense of the flat tax system being 'pure'.

Personally I can see the reason for a graduated income tax with no deductions along the lines I've suggested. Quite frankly though, NO politician is going to kill off the major deduction elements -- mortgage interest, local taxes, health care costs, contributions. Without those being dealt with all the noise about tax reform is just that -- noise. Oh, I suppose the Paulists might mean it along with a return to the gold standard -- but I dismiss that as political nonsense.

An interesting report...

Big 4 - A threat to Democracy

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And our friends across the pond, especially those in California which has huge finanicial problems, need to watch out.

How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

It doesn't help when governments themselves don't know what to do....

Tax U-Turn

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Gary, a totally flat tax system plus a welfare system that pays lower income people cash depending upon income is not really a flat tax system. Maintaining the fiction of separate systems might offer a feel good sense of the flat tax system being 'pure'.

Personally I can see the reason for a graduated income tax with no deductions along the lines I've suggested. Quite frankly though, NO politician is going to kill off the major deduction elements -- mortgage interest, local taxes, health care costs, contributions. Without those being dealt with all the noise about tax reform is just that -- noise. Oh, I suppose the Paulists might mean it along with a return to the gold standard -- but I dismiss that as political nonsense.

Tackle one problem at a time. I also suspect that as a package deal such a plan might have a chance, but it would have to come from the president to ever get to the vote stage.

It does separate revenue and expense. Also would moot the read my lips idiots. On the cut side, finally it could be dealt with.

But it would make too much sense, and politicians dislike sense.

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The problems are interlocking though. That's like the Ryan 'budget' --- his one 'problem' is tax rates -- he wants them lowered. Regarding deductions -- his 'budget' gave a 'not my job' answer.

To make a major revenue CUT play, he basically has to undermine the safety net -- major cuts in Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare -- ie the big ticket items, while IGNORING the need to cut Defense.

Tackle one problem at a time. I also suspect that as a package deal such a plan might have a chance, but it would have to come from the president to ever get to the vote stage.

It does separate revenue and expense. Also would moot the read my lips idiots. On the cut side, finally it could be dealt with.

But it would make too much sense, and politicians dislike sense.

And our friends across the pond, especially those in California which has huge finanicial problems, need to watch out.

How Apple Sidesteps Billions in Taxes

Not news to me. Falls into the category of the rich and connected taking advantage of the country [it's citizens]. Unfortunately these very companies have lobbies protecting their interests at all costs.
<grumble....>

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#resist

Chris, correct, they are duty bound to one entity - the corporation. Not their country of residence, not their customers, not their employees, not the environment.

Part of this imbalance can be dealt with via market pressures, but the only other way to achieve a balance is via regulations, other laws and tax policies.

There are those who see that final set an untoward interference in the pure best model of the capitalist system and exploitation. Those who do are not amongst the exploited though.

Chris, correct, they are duty bound to one entity - the corporation. Not their country of residence, not their customers, not their employees, not the environment.

Part of this imbalance can be dealt with via market pressures, but the only other way to achieve a balance is via regulations, other laws and tax policies.

There are those who see that final set an untoward interference in the pure best model of the capitalist system and exploitation. Those who do are not amongst the exploited though.

Yes regulations. But do it simple of do it with 100,000 pages of legal goop. Simple, you want this thing call a article of incorporation? then you accept the terms which are the corporation owes a duty to the country supplying it above the duty of profit. Don't need 100,000 pages of legal slop.

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+1

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Chris, correct, they are duty bound to one entity - the corporation. Not their country of residence, not their customers, not their employees, not the environment.

Part of this imbalance can be dealt with via market pressures, but the only other way to achieve a balance is via regulations, other laws and tax policies.

There are those who see that final set an untoward interference in the pure best model of the capitalist system and exploitation. Those who do are not amongst the exploited though.

Yes regulations. But do it simple of do it with 100,000 pages of legal goop. Simple, you want this thing call a article of incorporation? then you accept the terms which are the corporation owes a duty to the country supplying it above the duty of profit. Don't need 100,000 pages of legal slop.

+1 To Chris, Barry, and Gary on this one I agree with all of it...

But to quote myself

Unfortunately these very companies have lobbies protecting their interests at all costs.

Perhaps a good inroad to law reform is to reform lobbying methods. People have a right to be heard; but as with everything else, the rich corporations are able to use their money and power to their advantage when it comes to "being heard".

(I'll go a little further here. Money should not play a part in politics. Every politician in a race should be limited to a certain meager sum of cash to use to promote themselves.
I'd like to see this philosophy applied to lobbying as well. Perhaps remove a corporations ability to pay someone (or many someones) to lobby...)

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#resist

But to quote myself

Unfortunately these very companies have lobbies protecting their interests at all costs.

Perhaps a good inroad to law reform is to reform lobbying methods. People have a right to be heard; but as with everything else, the rich corporations are able to use their money and power to their advantage when it comes to "being heard".

Citizens United ...

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Citizens United ...

Not exactly, but along those lines. That's a mess and straying from our topic a little.

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#resist

Yup, it needs to simple and straightforward, notwithstanding that this might put a large number of tax specialists, and corporate litigation specialists out of work - not my first choice to protect from unemployment.

Yes regulations. But do it simple of do it with 100,000 pages of legal goop. Simple, you want this thing call a article of incorporation? then you accept the terms which are the corporation owes a duty to the country supplying it above the duty of profit. Don't need 100,000 pages of legal slop.

Yup, it needs to simple and straightforward, notwithstanding that this might put a large number of tax specialists, and corporate litigation specialists out of work - not my first choice to protect from unemployment.

[OT]
You are correct Barry. However, any major reform that would in turn help the masses, is likely to hurt a specific group of white collar incomes. Health care reform as I'd like to see would eliminate a huge chunk of private sector jobs, unless of course the government just canned the C.E.O.s and hired the rest. ;-)
[/OT]

I don't want to see anyone lose their job over any reform. Really all I'd like to see is something coming back from the top 1%. Frankly someone that is an officer of a health care firm, would have little trouble finding a new job. (Though it may just not pay the ridiculous sums these few are used to.)

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#resist

It helps when the "Tax Collectors" themselves are seen to be on the level....

HMRC cleared but told to clean up their act

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More reasons to simplify the tax codes....

England footballers in "deferred tax scheme"

Tax avoidance tips

Other end of the scale

K2 tax scheme

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