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betreger Send message Joined: 29 Jun 99 Posts: 11358 Credit: 29,581,041 RAC: 66 |
Conclusion: R must enjoy being poor. Gary, anecdotes about R are nice but anecdotes prove nothing per se. The ancient Greeks wrote about his type of behavior, there are always some people with out a long term view. The real meaning of this thread is dealing with the difference between median and mean income. In the mid 1950's the mean and median family income in this country was almost equal. That was in an era of mostly single income families. Since the 1970's the mean income has risen much faster than the median, while double pay checks have become much more the norm. Today the mean income is almost 1/3 larger than the median. This is not being caused by people like R, but is an institutional problem. If you don't think that will cause social unrest I suggest you study history a bit more. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30608 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Gary, anecdotes about R are nice but anecdotes prove nothing per se. The ancient Greeks wrote about his type of behavior, there are always some people with out a long term view. Very much so. I just wonder if the proportion of those with long term vs. short term changes over time, and where we are in the cycle. The real meaning of this thread is dealing with the difference between median and mean income. Well reading the title, I think it is about legal loopholes and under reporting of income and the manufacturing of exemptions, but I could be wrong. I'm glad you said income, because so many equate wealth with income. While they appear to be similar, they are not. A wealthy person is wealthy only if his assets are in cash. Otherwise he has to sell them and when that time comes there may be no buyers and he has to take a bath. As to the comparisons in the disparity in wealth, I find this interesting. Back when Romanov, Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Ford, Astor, Rothschild, Morgan, and Rockefeller were on top, each had more than any of the top do today, some more than the top 10 combined do today. So when they were at the top, was the bottom much higher that it is today? Or was the disparity far greater than it is today? |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
As to the comparisons in the disparity in wealth, I find this interesting. Back when Romanov, Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Ford, Astor, Rothschild, Morgan, and Rockefeller were on top, each had more than any of the top do today, some more than the top 10 combined do today. So when they were at the top, was the bottom much higher that it is today? Or was the disparity far greater than it is today? Well, I think Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain) had some opinion on this. I have sat by his octagonal study. |
dancer42 Send message Joined: 2 Jun 02 Posts: 455 Credit: 2,422,890 RAC: 1 |
if you tax something you expect to get less of it. if you subsidize something you expect to get more of it. this simple truth seems to have been lost. poverty is suppose to be nasty so no one wants to stay there. as to the disparity between haves and have not's was about 90 to 1 in 1930 between the least payed and most payed employee of a major company now it is over 1500 to 1. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19012 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Isn't the problem for those of you in the US, that each individual state has its own taxation rules. In some states they collect their taxes from the population by income tax, and if your family income is below certain thesholds the state helps by giving out tax rebates, similar to the Federal system. Whilst in other states they reject this model and collect taxes by sales tax, and are therefore not in a position to calculate or give tax rebates. This usually means the Federal social services has to step in with hand-outs. You can see which state follows which system by finding out which States contribute to the Federal funds and which States receive monies from Federal sources. It should be noted that some states using the sales tax model, do contribute to Federal funds because they are rich in natural resources. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30608 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Those are interesting figures, do you have a source for them? They appear to be figures for income, but stated as wealth. However I would like to see a figure from the 1920's and not the depression era 1930's. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19012 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Well exactly WK. Yet they call them the "UNITED" states of America, when they are nothing of the sort. Then they wonder why so many Americans are unhappy. Each State governor runs his patch like a fiefdom, supported by Sheriffs in the Counties. It's like going back to King John and the Sheriff of Nottingham in the 12th century. Following on from the last, I read in "Taxing the Poor: Doing Damage to the Truly Disadvantaged" that in a comparison, taken in 2008, of two low paid working women each with two kids, the one in Vermont was $2300/annum better off that the woman in Mississippi. |
betreger Send message Joined: 29 Jun 99 Posts: 11358 Credit: 29,581,041 RAC: 66 |
Those are interesting figures, do you have a source for them? Chris, if you are refering to my post, they are from US census bureau data. |
dancer42 Send message Joined: 2 Jun 02 Posts: 455 Credit: 2,422,890 RAC: 1 |
IN OKLAHOMA there is federal income tax, state income tax. and county sales tax as well as county property tax to support schools. the city's also collect some of the sales tax. standard deduction for Single person is 6,100 dollars the poverty the federal guideline for Oklahoma is 11,450 so if you are poor in Oklahoma the state and the fed will tax half your income as well as the county and city taxing all of it. |
betreger Send message Joined: 29 Jun 99 Posts: 11358 Credit: 29,581,041 RAC: 66 |
IN OKLAHOMA there is federal income tax, state income tax. and county sales tax Dancer this is a well thought out plan to reduce poverty. If we punish the poor they will have greater incentive to rise above there sorry state. |
dancer42 Send message Joined: 2 Jun 02 Posts: 455 Credit: 2,422,890 RAC: 1 |
this is CEO to average worker pay by country http://creativeconflictwisdom.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/ration-of-ceo-pay-to-average-worker-by-country/ with the US at 475 to 1 and japan at 11 to 1 |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24876 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
this is CEO to average worker pay by country There's a good comment which explains it clearly... "Thanks for the info. Though I share you view on many CEOs personally, what is really broken is systemic. We have created a very unequal, non value add, wasteful, non sustainable society and are paying these folks massively for their mistakes and self seeking. Morally they may be bankrupt, but it is morally and practically bankrupt system that makes them possible.." |
dancer42 Send message Joined: 2 Jun 02 Posts: 455 Credit: 2,422,890 RAC: 1 |
it is not my intention to say that the poor should be punished but rather that if you only feed the poor that tomorrow they will be hungry again. I live on the poverty line for my state. subsidizing the poor does not fix the problem. virtually all the gains in income in the united states have been for the educated since 1979. education can change the situation for the poor, the dole can not. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24876 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
you only feed the poor that tomorrow they will be hungry again. Then the Fish Tax hits...... 400,000 fish for HMR&C/IRS 200,000 Fish for N.I./Sales Tax leaving 400,000 fish to feed 800,000 mouths..... ..oh dear..... |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30608 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
IN OKLAHOMA there is federal income tax, state income tax. and county sales tax The state may, but the fed will give you welfare called the Earned Income Tax Credit. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30608 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
you only feed the poor that tomorrow they will be hungry again. So true. What happened in California which had the greatest education system in the world? At one time essentially free K through 20! Well, education didn't buy enough votes. Better bribes were needed to keep the rascals in power. So they came up with lots of ways to give a man a fish because when you give a man a fish he is dependent upon you and he will do your bidding to keep the fish coming. Then there was Howard Jarvis. He saw the real estate bubble back in 1978 or so and saw how it was forcing families to sell their houses due to the outrageous values attached to them from real estate speculation. So he broke that valuation increase from the tax rolls. Unfortunately that tax roll was the one used to pay for education. But his breaking it took the funding for education from the county level and put it on the state level. Far more dirty tricks happened and suddenly the money had been diverted from teaching people how to fish to supplying people with fish. Why? Because it is much easier to sit on your butt and wait for the free fish truck to come than it is to learn how to fish and catch your own and sell some to a neighbor who learned how to farm and has some corn you might like with your fish. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24876 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
& why wouldn't they? They're only guaranteeing themselves a nice monthly salary shuffling paper around the offices. Put those muppets into employment where they have to actually work & make decisions for themselves & we'll then see if they up to scratch! |
Nick Send message Joined: 11 Oct 11 Posts: 4344 Credit: 3,313,107 RAC: 0 |
That just about sums it up Gary. Yes Chris, time we took their fishes away so forcing them to learn to fish. The Kite Fliers -------------------- Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes. |
Nick Send message Joined: 11 Oct 11 Posts: 4344 Credit: 3,313,107 RAC: 0 |
Maybe a new thread this is about taxation. Well Chris, it could still be considered to come under this banner since their benefits do come out of the general taxation system. A system that they are not directly contributing too so could in some ways be considered to be a form of tax avoidance. I wish I only had to pay tax on my spending and not on my earnings too. Lets face it Chris, your living on benefits, but benefits you earned by investing in pensions but I bet your still having to pay tax on some of it first. The Kite Fliers -------------------- Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes. |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
No matter the difficulty teaching, it is easier to teach people to fish than to keep handing them fish. That's why I have no qualms teaching for a state university. State or private, whatever. |
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