Trade Unions - For or Against?

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Message 1242735 - Posted: 7 Jun 2012, 11:58:37 UTC - in response to Message 1242730.  

Do you want to start this one off Sirius?



Yes, thanks Chris.

For the past decade or more I have been against unions & this is extremely hard for me to accept as I was a Shop Steward while on the railways.

I had more arguments within the union than with management, due to the "stupid" reasoning behind the calling of some BUT not all strikes. I had gained the respect of the management (divisional) & they knew that whenever a serious issue cropped up, I spoke to them 1st to give them the opportunity to investigaste the issue & if correct, attempt to resolve it without the need to escalate it to both senior management & union HQ.

Most of the time, matters were resolved amicably, thank goodness as I remember numerous strikes throughout the 1970's & many were indeed, pointless - just the unions flexing their "power".

When "Maggie" got in, that flexing is what got them negated & many like myself warned them of this, but we were ignored.
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Message 1242736 - Posted: 7 Jun 2012, 12:03:10 UTC - in response to Message 1242735.  

Cont'd

However, from experience, I often found that most issues were mainly resolved at the local level with some that actually benefited the whole company.

The problem was & still is (for example, take the Fire Brigade union & it's head - urging members to strike & at the same time, he used union funds to claim for business lunches with some of those totalling £6k & more - & some were proved to be non-union business meetings - Ooops), the union chiefs flexing their "muscles" when there really is no need for that.

However, with the world's economy tanking & the ideas being bandied about by politicians, unions need to stop this "flexing" & return to the values that made them powerful in the 1st place.
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Message 1242743 - Posted: 7 Jun 2012, 12:41:42 UTC

I to have a divided feeling on Unions. This after me having been in one for two days short of 24 years. The shop that we had needed a union as all of upper manangement right from foreman to company president were constantly breaking the agreement that they helped negotioate. Yes the union did keep a lot of deadwood from being fired, but they also saved jobs for people who were not liked or not the foremans pet bootlicker.

The place I work at now is non union. While things are not perfect, At least management does treat people mostly fairly. They just dont want to pay a lot.


The thing that got my goat the most is the Us versus Them attitude that prevailed on boths sides of the table. Seems to me that they could work out a fair and equitable deal for all partys with out all the name calling and threats by both sides.
[/quote]

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Message 1242744 - Posted: 7 Jun 2012, 12:47:06 UTC - in response to Message 1242743.  

I to have a divided feeling on Unions. This after me having been in one for two days short of 24 years. The shop that we had needed a union as all of upper manangement right from foreman to company president were constantly breaking the agreement that they helped negotioate. Yes the union did keep a lot of deadwood from being fired, but they also saved jobs for people who were not liked or not the foremans pet bootlicker.

The place I work at now is non union. While things are not perfect, At least management does treat people mostly fairly. They just dont want to pay a lot.


The thing that got my goat the most is the Us versus Them attitude that prevailed on boths sides of the table. Seems to me that they could work out a fair and equitable deal for all partys with out all the name calling and threats by both sides.


Exactly! This is where I had problems every time I had to attend either regional or HQ meetings. It was plainly obvious that the "leaders" were only out to "stuff" the management or their own ends.

For the past 2 decades, we have been seeing this more & more with the membership getting "stuffed" from both sides.
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Message 1242746 - Posted: 7 Jun 2012, 12:54:16 UTC

I've been a member of the following: -

Sogat (newsprint)
NUR (Rail)
ASLEF (Rail)
UCW (Royal Mail)
Unison (NHS)
T&GWU (Road Transport - still current)

What killed unions for me was Unison, what I seen & heard was unbelievable - many of us complained but got told to shut up or we'll be kicked out of the union - some regional Shop Stewards even told us that they would make our life hell if that happened.

Now look at the NHS - Most support services are contracted out & look at the headlines for the past decade or so where they are involved & the union?

HAHAHAHA, what union?
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Message 1243189 - Posted: 8 Jun 2012, 5:57:22 UTC
Last modified: 8 Jun 2012, 5:58:01 UTC

I like the idea of unions. I've never been in one, the place I work at would close its doors at the first hint of a union...

My issue with unions typically is people getting paid decent money to do, well, nothing.

Too many times in my day I've been in union shops, visiting, or subcontracting (man do union shops love subcontractors... :-D), and there are guys that either stand around all day, or sit on little carts driving around all day, and do NOTHING. That's a problem for the economy, and that's a problem I have with modern unions.

Unions are meant to protect workers and look out for them, and provide fair wages. They are not meant solely to provide cushy overpaying jobs for people to suck the life out of a company, or government, as is now the more common place for unions in modern America.
#resist
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Message 1243257 - Posted: 8 Jun 2012, 10:20:38 UTC - in response to Message 1243241.  

You forgot to mention the docks strike in the early 70's that virtually killed the UK's position as the distribution docks for northern Europe and handed it to Antwerp.
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Message 1243293 - Posted: 8 Jun 2012, 13:52:40 UTC - in response to Message 1243241.  

Ecellent. Totally agree.
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Message 1243481 - Posted: 8 Jun 2012, 20:22:25 UTC

Why I was glad to get out of Unison......

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Message 1243655 - Posted: 9 Jun 2012, 3:08:39 UTC - in response to Message 1243189.  
Last modified: 9 Jun 2012, 3:09:54 UTC



Too many times in my day I've been in union shops, visiting, or subcontracting (man do union shops love subcontractors... :-D), and there are guys that either stand around all day, or sit on little carts driving around all day, and do NOTHING. That's a problem for the economy, and that's a problem I have with modern unions.


This is exactly what I experienced some 30 years ago in a union shop.

I was forced to join, forced to pay the dues.

And thereupon, was forced to witness the union defend the witless and lazy.
With no chance to advance upon my work ethics.

Tell you a story.......

I got a job at the age of about 19 in a union occupied corrugated carton factory. Started out at the dung heap of jobs....stacking sheets from the corrugator. Nasty job. Hard work, lots of paper cuts. Got my forearms caught in a gate, from which I have nerve damage in my arms to this day...

Anyways....there were always a contingent of slackers trying to slow the machine down. Tossing scrap in to stop the whole production line, standing there whilst things jammed up. And f'ing smiling all the while, because they knew they had union backup.

After a year of so if witnessing this crap, I had the opportunity to sign off on another job......it was called a Thompson die cutter.
A single operator machine. You took sheets of corrugated, and as a platen came up and down with a die to cut them, you pulled the cut sheet out and fed a new sheet in with each cycle. Thump, thump, thump.

After a couple of weeks, I had the job pretty well in hand.

One afternoon, I started my shift and had a good job to run. The stock was flat, the dies were sharp. Started to speed up the press.
After about 10 minutes at full speed, the day shift operator came up behind my back and turned down the throttle.
I responded by giving him a dirty look and turning it right back up.
He made a fist at me, and asked me what the F I was doing...
'If you run this fast, they'll want us to do it all the time.'

He quit the job after 20 years the next day and found something more cushy.

That's my take on Unions.
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1243784 - Posted: 9 Jun 2012, 4:31:27 UTC - in response to Message 1243772.  
Last modified: 9 Jun 2012, 4:37:52 UTC

i think that unions are a necessary part of a Trinity.
Government , labor, and business working together to optimize economic and social development.

It has not worked out that way.
It has been unions, for the unions, and only the unions.
The public sector unions have raped the taxpayers in this country for years.
And years. Reaping far beyond what private sector employes might expect for similar work.

Time has come. Walker has won. And I hope his courage to stand against the 'might of the unions' shall stand and grow in this nation.
Union membership is dropping....once they had an option not to have union dues demanded from their paychecks. Or rather opt in.
They are flying like the chicks from the hen. And not coming back.

The Unions are now dead in this country. And well so should it be.
Their time was done many years ago.
They have only existed in their old age to try to extort more for them and less for everybody else. Done now. They have awakened the sleeping dragon of the public knowledge of their actions.

Might I remind you of what even the private unions did to kill Detroit??????

It's about time the taxpayers had their say........'This is enough.'
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1244083 - Posted: 9 Jun 2012, 19:44:54 UTC - in response to Message 1243895.  

I am sure that many people could relate horror stories similar to Mark's ones. But to be fair, there have also been many lapses of management responsibility in the past leading to serious injuries and deaths in the workforce.

I think that all sides need to re-evaluate where they stand. Of course there was a time when employers cut corners on safety, operated too long working hours, and paid peanut wages, but that was probably more relevant prior to WWII.

A landmark UK Union agreement in the 1960's was probably the "Fawley Blue Book". The Fawley agreements have been widely quoted in management, right-wing Labour, and union Circles, as the most significant breakthrough in industrial relations since the war. I lerarnt about that in my management studies in the early 80's. Fawley

These days, a savvy management will work hand in hand with the Unions to achieve a happy workforce, leading to less risk of industrial action. And if they are really smart, they will pay tribute to Union leaders for playing a meaningful part in acheieving acceptable pay and conditions. We all have to work together for the common good, and it CAN be done.


Chris, the time for a Union to 'save the workers' has long been gone.
They only exist now to extort unrealistic benefits and wages from their employer.
And the crux of the matter is that the public unions have raped the taxpayers for years on end.......
We have now done something about it in Wisconsin.
Walker had the balls to shut the public unions down.....and has saved the taxpayers millions already. That is why he got re-certified in the face of the millions of dollars that the unions put up to try to toss him.

Sometimes, the system works.

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1244085 - Posted: 9 Jun 2012, 19:59:43 UTC

On reading this, I thought for a brief moment I was still employed by London Transport & the year is 1975......

London bus drivers vote for strike - they want £500($750) just for turning up to work

Emmm.sorry, you're contracted to work shifts & if those shifts on your duty rosta's have you working during those "peak" Olympic times, I'm afraid it's a TS situation, so do the job you're being paid to do!
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Message 1244197 - Posted: 10 Jun 2012, 0:24:19 UTC

I'm for unions only if I can be President or treasurer.
Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.
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Message 1244235 - Posted: 10 Jun 2012, 3:35:07 UTC - in response to Message 1244197.  

I'm for unions only if I can be President or treasurer.

Uhh....
Folks are just now waking up to the fact that they are the only winners.
Or the real loooooooosers.

Now that Wisonsin's reforms are real, union membership is dropping like rats from it's sinking ship.
You now have to opt IN to pay union dues.
They can no longer just extort them from you.

And folks are finding that they just don't wanna pay the 'big man' anymore.
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1244240 - Posted: 10 Jun 2012, 3:53:24 UTC - in response to Message 1244235.  

I'm for unions only if I can be President or treasurer.

Uhh....
Folks are just now waking up to the fact that they are the only winners.
Or the real loooooooosers.

Now that Wisonsin's reforms are real, union membership is dropping like rats from it's sinking ship.
You now have to opt IN to pay union dues.
They can no longer just extort them from you.

And folks are finding that they just don't wanna pay the 'big man' anymore.

But this^ isn't really a "good" thing. Soon they wont be able to opt-in even if they wanted to or need to...
#resist
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Message 1244242 - Posted: 10 Jun 2012, 3:57:56 UTC - in response to Message 1244240.  

I'm for unions only if I can be President or treasurer.

Uhh....
Folks are just now waking up to the fact that they are the only winners.
Or the real loooooooosers.

Now that Wisonsin's reforms are real, union membership is dropping like rats from it's sinking ship.
You now have to opt IN to pay union dues.
They can no longer just extort them from you.

And folks are finding that they just don't wanna pay the 'big man' anymore.

But this^ isn't really a "good" thing. Soon they wont be able to opt-in even if they wanted to or need to...

Good thing or not, it is present day reality.
And it's about time the small business owner gets his day.

Mind you, this all has nothing to bear on the multi millionaire babies that take their billion dollar salaries from high budget corps.......

This is the little guys. The ones that REALLY make or break an economy.

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1245179 - Posted: 12 Jun 2012, 23:51:25 UTC

This really shows what "modern" unions are after....

Convenient with the Olympics a short time away

On this one, the union is in the wrong. After the upgrading of signalling & other modernisations, Hammersmith (Rail wise) is ideal in that it eases the pressure on Earl's Court & is only 3 stops away....

...so cannot see why the union is confrontational as it seems that all criteria has been met by the management.
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Message 1245300 - Posted: 13 Jun 2012, 11:06:42 UTC
Last modified: 13 Jun 2012, 11:07:56 UTC

OF COURSE they dismissed it.........

"The timing of the new strike has yet to be finalised but union officials dismissed as "pure speculation" suggestions it could be timed to coincide with the forthcoming Olympics."

The scum.......
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1245538 - Posted: 13 Jun 2012, 20:48:13 UTC
Last modified: 13 Jun 2012, 21:01:39 UTC

What gets me about this bus driver bonus malarkey is, that normally the
buses drive around London quite empty of passengers. During the Olympics
these buses are likely now to run around London quite full. For this, the
bus drivers wont a bonus...why, are these bus drivers having to carry the
extra passenger loads upon their own backs!!!!
Has TFL thought about the delays that will hold these buses up from running
to time. How many of the Olympics destined passengers are going to have the
Oyster swipe cards? How many of these Olympics destined passengers are going
to know the fares price to pay on the bus? These two points could seriously
delay the progress of the bus if this buses driver has to deal with many
individual passenger fare inquiries and then take the fare money too.

I don't suppose the British Olympics committee is too fussed either way
regarding whether the bus drivers go on strike or not. For they have sold
7/8th of the games tickets so far and wont have to give a penny back to
the purchaser if they can't get to the Olympics because the buses were on strike.

And remember, it will be illegal to take any food with you into the Olympics.
All food must be purchased on site. A totalitarian Olympics committee in full
operation, "We will take what ever measures necessary to force this Olympics not
to become a financial disaster". "You will buy our supplied foods and drinks
at our highly inflated prices and if it looks like we are not making enough
money then we will be charging you for the Olympics air that your breathing".
The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
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Message boards : Politics : Trade Unions - For or Against?


 
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